User Tag List

First 1826272829303878 Last

Results 271 to 280 of 938

  1. #271
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,106

    Default

    I agree with you though that active listening in general does diffuse a lot of situations and most people just want to feel heard and like their problems are valid and worthy of consideration.

  2. #272
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    At the same time, I just don't understand if they want something changed, why they can't see if it can be addressed on a small scale first before dragging people in who aren't even connected to the original problem. Would you say this is a way of having witnesses, much like the bus example you used?
    the way i see this, is that it is everyone's problem. to also take the example of the kid on the bus, those other kids saw him being bullied and did nothing about it. to stand by and watch someone be treated unfairly is to give implicit approval.

    having a witness has never even occurred to me... i suppose Fi just doesn't operate in terms of considering wanting something to show others. the truth should be independent of who chooses believe it. (of course i recognize that this is a fallacy, but i believe this is how the Fi train of thought runs.)

    it seems to me that Fi and Fe are in fact quite strong in childhood, and that we more readily fall prey to their individual pitfalls. it's what middle school nightmares are made of: the well-loved and fun Fe cheerleader who nevertheless will not speak out when people treat herself or others poorly, pitted against the fiery and genuine Fi protester who nevertheless is intensely disliked and disruptive. what are one's morals worth if you pit yourself against the society that you are trying to help? and what is one's bond with society worth if one does not use it to ensure that society continues to be a good thing? it would seem that the key would be to live at the edge of either, the venn overlap of both. the place where you are aligned with society well enough to say, hey guys, maybe we should reconsider what we're doing here. is it really the best for everyone?

  3. #273
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    With W, the reason we tend to respond that way is that wild accusations get made when the person is feeling frustrated at the time. Then within two or three posts they calm down and it turns out that much of what was going on was more based around a fuzzier underlying feeling (which may be valid, but is hard to address if we don't know what it is) rather than any specific issue that can be dealt with and righted.

    Meanwhile, the mods as a group are routinely told that they are inconsistent, unfair and abuse their authority. I take those kind of charges seriously as fairness and listening to other people is a very important value to me and if there's wrongdoing, I would like to change that. When I contact any of those people separately, they just say, "Well, you're cool. I forgot you were a mod". If I ask what happened, there are no specific people or examples of what happened so that we can fix anything.

    Meanwhile, other members of the forum are left thinking that perhaps there is stuff going on that they have not been aware of and our names are sullied. Those people are people with their own stressors and issues too! We are not free to respond in kind and it ends up using up huge amount of emotional resources and time, when sometimes it is just a thoughtless spur of the moment decision to post a public thread. The outburst has calmed down, but left several small fires smoldering that now need to be addressed which use up further time and emotional resources. Something that was urgent enough to spend a whole evening on, now suddenly is "Oops, okay then. I was just feeling a little edgy". That seems very disrespectful and capricious towards the people who were being engaged in the discussion and against whom accusations were made.

    I realize that may be an example of how Fi can be displayed under stress or if it's immature, and I realize my reaction isn't helping. I understand that active listening is usually more productive, and in my real life interactions and much of my communication here, I do that. When it is public though, I feel that sometimes it validates something that is just someone else unfairly dumping on other people. It actually ends up creating a bigger problem than if you refuse to engage and give it validity. When I don't actively listen in those types of threads, it is a conscious choice, based on my past experience observing the person's interactions with others and the mods in the past.

    At the same time, I just don't understand if they want something changed, why they can't see if it can be addressed on a small scale first before dragging people in who aren't even connected to the original problem. Would you say this is a way of having witnesses, much like the bus example you used?

    This. There do seem to be certain members who seem to have a habit of kicking stuff up. Multiple threads are started and battle lines are drawn, and often for them it blows over later, but the residue is there in people's minds. There's now an overall feeling of "maybe the mods really are corrupt," or "maybe this person goes around talking crap about people in vent," or whatever. Meanwhile, maybe it was just a feeling of discontent with that one person, and they're over it now. I am all for individuality, but don't individuals also kinda have a responsibility to deal with some of their own stuff without bringing everyone in the world into their emotional world?

    With W, I was just confused. I was trying to understand him in his ENFP thread, and then halfway through, he was like, "no one gets it, you're all wrong, I'm out of here." Alrighty then. I mean, when it seems like someone's having some sort of breakdown, I kind of think it might be best if they go deal with that elsewhere and come back later when they have some emotional distance from their frustrations.

    I think this is where it's kind of hard for Fe to understand Fi. I guess this is where it's obvious to me that they really are preferences. It's so hard not to default to what makes the most sense to me personally.

    There are definitely times when I go all Fi on people, though--and the bully situation you described would be one of them. I do have a sense of justice, but I don't feel like all situations require strict justice. In fact, the word "justice" makes me twitch a little bit in an everyday situation. Just like the word "consensus" made some Fi users twitch. I just kinda go, well, obviously, in a perfect world everything would be perfectly fair all the time. But I don't need someone eternally crusading for justice on my behalf. Sometimes I just want to get on with it and I accept that things aren't always fair, and I'm not going to be heard all the time. The idealism thing might be where things really break down for Fe/Fi.

    I will say, PB, that I do stick up for people who aren't being heard, or who are being misrepresented, or who I feel are being unfairly targeted fairly often in threads--especially when they're being piled on by a buncha INTPs. I just do it in Fe type language, so it's not emotion-based, but more, "hey, I don't think that's really what they were saying."
    Something Witty

  4. #274
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    The tone of this thread only deteriorated once you appeared. This is a pattern that you seem oblivious to. That's the generous interpretation. The less generous one is that you are a belligerent troll who is determined to undermine and antagonise any and all discussion of the Feeling functions. Perhaps you should talk to someone about this unhealthy fixation/habit. PRIVATELY.
    Personally attacking me by calling me a "belligerent troll" when you have a long history of viciously attacking people in this forum, is nothing short of bizarre and ironic.

    Proteanmix and I tried to get it through your head that Fe can balance out Ti. But you wanted to complain that you had to live in a Fe world. Now you claim I want to "undermine discussion" of the Feeling function? Is this your idea of a joke? It was you who was undermining the understanding of Fe in a thread you started, which suggested that Ti was "truth" and Fe was "lying." Anyone is free to read that ridiculous thread if they really want to see someone undermining Fe.

    Furthermore, you claimed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Fe is not about looking at external situations. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's perceiving, not judging. Fe is about valuing external standards.
    And I responded with this:

    "Fe is a decision-making process. It focuses on the objective, external world."

    Key features:

    • Is an objective decision-making process that seeks to create or maintain harmony in the environment.
    • Has an outer focus that is primarily about people and their relationships.
    • Views people, events, situations, and objects in terms of their effects on people.
    • Is actively concerned for others' needs, desires, and values.
    • Prefers to avoid outward conflict, but can become unyielding in situations involving a threat to another person.
    • Establishes and maintains social conventions.
    • Is driven to interact with people.


    ( p.94 Building Blocks of Personality Type, Haas.)



    Fe does indeed focus on the external situation and it takes into account how the decision will impact others. Anyone who runs a company or is in any type of management position has to make decisions like this, on a daily basis. Without considering the needs of the client, a company may as well just close its doors since it won't be in business very long. Fe is crucial to establishing and maintaining business relationships as well as building a successful team and creating rapport among team members. As a matter of fact, one of my questions I never failed to ask people when I interviewed them to work for me was, did they play team sports in school. It wasn't the physical aspect I was after, it was the teamwork aspect I was after. That is Fe.

    Do not tell me I have an interest in "undermining" a discussion on the Feeling function when the opposite is true. In my case it wouldn't even make sense for me to undermine a discussion of the function, considering how crucial it is when making decisions in business.

    If you can't carry on a civil discussion without making personal attacks on members by telling them to "fuck off," or calling people "belligerent trolls," perhaps you might ask yourself why you even come here. Members don't have to tolerate your incessant personal attacks.

  5. #275
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Meanwhile, the mods as a group are routinely told that they are inconsistent, unfair and abuse their authority. I take those kind of charges seriously as fairness and listening to other people is a very important value to me and if there's wrongdoing, I would like to change that.
    The difficulty of course is that what you do needs to be done behind the scenes. There's no visibility. Speculation can run rampant.

    It's why in the legal arena, court trials are open to the public. Everything is done in plain sight. Ideally, justice prevails. But the philosophy of the public trial is very symbolic.

    Meanwhile, other members of the forum are left thinking that perhaps there is stuff going on that they have not been aware of and our names are sullied.
    I guess I'm not privy to the sullying ... I think you all have a tough and thankless job. Personally, I have no beef with anyone on the mod squad. I've been here long enough to feel you all are a pretty balanced team, so I feel the forum is in the hands of the "good guys".

    But, the nature of what you do does leave you open to censure, I'll grant you that. And I'm sure you all show remarkable restraint to not just stand up for yourselves too sometimes.

    when sometimes it is just a thoughtless spur of the moment decision to post a public thread.
    Exactly. That's why it's best to just ignore those ones ... let themselves emo out ... or do some active listening ... but the people who respond negatively to the emo burst do as much damage as the OP or more.

    When it is public though, I feel that sometimes it validates something that is just someone else unfairly dumping on other people. It actually ends up creating a bigger problem than if you refuse to engage and give it validity.
    Active listening isn't validating, it's just hearing. And it's reflecting - information, emotion, tone, intent, that's all it is.

    At the same time, I just don't understand if they want something changed, why they can't see if it can be addressed on a small scale first before dragging people in who aren't even connected to the original problem. Would you say this is a way of having witnesses, much like the bus example you used?
    It's not about having witnesses, no. The truth is independent of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    the way i see this, is that it is everyone's problem. to also take the example of the kid on the bus, those other kids saw him being bullied and did nothing about it. to stand by and watch someone be treated unfairly is to give implicit approval.

    having a witness has never even occurred to me... i suppose Fi just doesn't operate in terms of considering wanting something to show others. the truth should be independent of who chooses believe it. (of course i recognize that this is a fallacy, but i believe this is how the Fi train of thought runs.)
    @bold: it's exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I am all for individuality, but don't individuals also kinda have a responsibility to deal with some of their own stuff without bringing everyone in the world into their emotional world?
    @bold: they sure do, and it's a great point. Sometimes people do lose perspective and self-control.

    With W, I was just confused. I was trying to understand him in his ENFP thread, and then halfway through, he was like, "no one gets it, you're all wrong, I'm out of here." Alrighty then. I mean, when it seems like someone's having some sort of breakdown, I kind of think it might be best if they go deal with that elsewhere and come back later when they have some emotional distance from their frustrations.
    W was so far out there at first, I felt it best to let it flame out. But, the fire kept on a'burning, for a variety of reasons.

    I'm not saying W was right, and I do believe a few folks tried to address him in a balanced way.

    I think this is where it's kind of hard for Fe to understand Fi. I guess this is where it's obvious to me that they really are preferences. It's so hard not to default to what makes the most sense to me personally.
    W's situation is not maybe the best example either, but I find it easier to forgive his excess than to stifle his expression. Without feeding the flame, it can only burn for so long, eh?

    I will say, PB, that I do stick up for people who aren't being heard, or who are being misrepresented, or who I feel are being unfairly targeted fairly often in threads--especially when they're being piled on by a buncha INTPs. I just do it in Fe type language, so it's not emotion-based, but more, "hey, I don't think that's really what they were saying."
    Absolutely; I'm not trying to suggest otherwise at all.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #276
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I realize that may be an example of how Fi can be displayed under stress or if it's immature, and I realize my reaction isn't helping.

    At the same time, I just don't understand if they want something changed, why they can't see if it can be addressed on a small scale first before dragging people in who aren't even connected to the original problem. Would you say this is a way of having witnesses, much like the bus example you used?
    I don't see what this has to do with Fi as a function.... I've seen far too many Fe emo meltdowns on this board, other boards, and in real life, to assign that approach to the Fi mindset. Forget Fi & Fe - people of any type can have outbursts like this for whatever reason.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #277
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ agreed.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #278
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,106

    Default

    I agree that we have Fe meltdowns too. I think the reason I inquired specifically as to Fi was because the majority of those kinds of threads are ENFP with the occasional bit of INTJ involvement.

    I also agree that it is indeed everyone's responsibility (onlookers just as much as the bully and the bullied in that case) to take action when there is something wrong occurring, preferably in a proactive way rather than a reactive one.

    Thanks all of you for your responses!

  9. #279
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    218

    Default

    I have a couple of very good friends with strong Fe (2 ENFJs and 2 INFJs). We share values of fairness and we tend to judge people's level of ethics similarly. The only trend could be that the ENFJs are a bit more tolerant to people I'd loose patience with sooner. They can be very understanding of 'both sides' where I will have closed my heart once I have detected a violation.

    So I find the "shape" of our ethical judgements different. I am often more principled and my outrage over unfairness isn't fueled primarily by empathy with the concrete person that's hurt while the Fe'ers are very observant about the feelings of the involved and concerned to set things right. I can imagine and then empathise with those feelings, yes, but my untamed fury is much more about the violation of basic ethical principles. Almost as if the ethical requirements themselves were 'hurt' and I empathise with that.

    Weird when I write it like that. But I can be much more blind to how people are feeling in the situation while the Fe-people have a perfect picture of everyone involved.

    When that's the case I am indeed not open to negotiations. It would feel like negotiating the law of gravity: unthinkably absurd. Negotiating basic ethical priciples seems to me bound to end in a compromised, inconsistent result and thus - eventually - be supportive of further cruelty.

  10. #280
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Active listening isn't validating, it's just hearing. And it's reflecting - information, emotion, tone, intent, that's all it is.
    I appreciate all you've said from the Fi perspective up above, PB. It has hit me in a way that most of the dialog has not, and I am still thinking about it.

    But in this particular area of the discussion, I think this is where Fe considers Fi to be naive... just like people who enter the field of politics thinking "All they have to do is tell the truth, and then everything will be fine." It doesn't work that way. Hate it or not, people are swayed by public persona ... even you. You only see what you see. This is why smear campaigns are so effective -- and they become even more effective if the person doing the smearing is believing they're just "telling the truth" and feel passion for their cause.

    And if falsehoods are entertained or given more credibility than they deserve, it creates disruptions and fosters untruth. Rumors smear; and the tone of your comments left me feeling like it's the people who are being smeared who have to now expend the energy to deal with the mess that others have created, even if the people creating the mess a few hours later suddenly say, "Oh, well, it wasn't that big a deal after all." That's horrifically unfair and exhausting; I think responsibility comes in at both ends, not just one.

    Active listening is effective and an important tool, but sometimes it seems like it can be taken advantage of or just enables people to not take responsibility for their own choices. It also can feel like coddling sometimes. It's confusing to know when to use it and when not to.


    W's situation is not maybe the best example either, but I find it easier to forgive his excess than to stifle his expression. Without feeding the flame, it can only burn for so long, eh?
    No, it's like a forest fire... you let it burn TOO long, and it'll start more little fires all around the forest and the whole thing will eventually go up, even if the original fire subsides. "The tongue is a raging fire," isn't it? Things people say, even carelessly / just to "vent," can start fires that can burn down reputations and communities. The feelings linger for some people long after the event in question, while the people who spoke carelessly or even just "impassionated in the moment" might sleep soundly without realizing how they've really torn someone else up. I've got three kids, and one of them is really good at "telling his truth in the heat of the moment," then ten minutes later moving on... leaving the other two kids to deal with the crap he dumped on them, sometimes very unfairly, while often they coddle him too much at their own expense because they're trying to be fair and polite. Trying to find a balance in that mess is hard.


    There's still stuff that people have said here a year or two ago that was never resolved, never will be resolved, and still eats at me no matter how hard I've tried to lay it aside, and undermines my self-confidence; I just try to block it out and continue forward regardless, shutting out emotions and relying on what rationality I have to keep me on track.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Similar Threads

  1. When Fe meets Fi......
    By RedAmazoneFriendZone in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 05-15-2016, 08:09 AM
  2. Fe vs. Fi, Disloyalty, Allegiance, Or the Lack Thereof…
    By Esoteric Wench in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 07:55 PM
  3. [NT] Fe and Fi, the NT version
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 04-20-2010, 09:55 AM
  4. Let's end the Fe/Ti - Fi/Te wars once and for all...
    By onemoretime in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-16-2010, 12:00 PM
  5. Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?
    By sofmarhof in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 02-23-2010, 03:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO