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  1. #261
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    So, would you say it's more about being heard than about the action ultimately taken, then? This is what I'm trying to understand--I guess because Fe is kind of an action thing, and I'm trying to get the distinction of what Fi looks like, ideally, in a group setting, if it's as unfettered as an Fi user would like.
    When I'm chairing or moderating a meeting at work, these are some of the things I try to achieve (in addition to reaching the meeting's objective) :
    - Everyone has an equal opportunity to give his/her views on the matter being discussed
    - If there is a decision that needs to be made, each person should be able to come to his/her own decision without being pressured to
    'toe the company/majority line'
    - When the vote is said and done, anyone who spoke against or voted against the final decision shouldn't be ridiculed, castigated or otherwise marginalized.

    Disclaimer : I'm not saying that this is all Fi or that all these behaviours are exclusive only to Fi-users...
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  2. #262
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    ^That also makes sense in terms of Socionics Delta quadra values, I believe. Not sure if you've ever looked into that. You're an INFP, and possibly INFj there - but other non-NF's are Delta as well (ISTp and ESTj, in addition to ENFp).

    I'm kind of unsure where I fall now. Delta sounds cozy Beta (ENFj and INFp) are more hierarchical.

  3. #263
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks all of you for taking time to respond to that. The intended outcome is beginning to make a little more sense, although I probably have more questions.

    Also, PB, I'm sorry if you felt dismissed. That wasn't my intention and I shouldn't have been so hasty. I think probably the situation striking pretty close to home had something to do with it. That was kind of a big turning point in my folks' marriage and the whole thing had a pretty deep impact on my own spiritual life.

  4. #264
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    I think I've figured it out.

    This is Fe:



    This is Fi:


  5. #265
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    So you're saying Fe killed Jesus? Yay!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So you're saying Fe killed Jesus? Yay!
    Pretty much. Fe kills a lot of people.

    Fi often wants to get killed though.

  7. #267
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Thanks all of you for taking time to respond to that. The intended outcome is beginning to make a little more sense, although I probably have more questions.

    Also, PB, I'm sorry if you felt dismissed. That wasn't my intention and I shouldn't have been so hasty. I think probably the situation striking pretty close to home had something to do with it. That was kind of a big turning point in my folks' marriage and the whole thing had a pretty deep impact on my own spiritual life.
    fidelia, I appreciate your response. It took me hours to try to write that and be concise enough to post whilst preserving at least some of the narrative so someone could get a sense of the Fe / Fi dynamic, and how I felt all voices in the situation where unheard, and not only unheard, but actively suppressed.

    So yes, I felt like you took a glance and made a 3 minute assessment on something that was hard for me to expose and articulate. I know what I know. I don't need to prove anything. I just wanted to try and show you.

    Fi to me is the canary in the coal mine. (Only I'd rather not croak for the cause, but I feel like I sense the problems way before other people feel concerned).

    Understand too I have been in many other groups and work environments where I don't get those Fi alarm bells. I mean, thank heavens it doesn't happen every day. I know lots of Fe'ers are mature and mean well, but sometimes that doesn't happen. And I know lots of Fi'ers who don't have enough savvy to work the Fe world, and piss lots of people off in the expression of their righteousness.

    At any rate, I hope the post is helpful to some.

    Again, your comment above is meaningful to me.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #268
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    And another thought on your Mom, fidelia, in that situation: I think an Fe dom knows who's inherently more "dangerous" shall we say, more of an impediment to getting their own agenda realized. So yes, if your Mom is someone who would be vocal in opposition, it would be expedient to neutralize the threat immediately. The other Fe dom no doubt knew that, and took action.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #269
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You know fidelia, there's something about the way you pepper questions in a post that makes me glaze over. Like, I can't look at all those questions in a long string. It's why I guess sometimes I don't address them all. But for you, I am going to dissect this, k?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Someone said something to me about how Fi users feel very dishonest discussing negative feelings about group dynamics in private.
    Yes, we do. We process it all internally, so in order to be objective, such things needs as much external input as possible. If the offense occurred in a group, the group is part of the dynamic, and thus to "clear the air" the issue is best broached in the same environs.

    I've noticed on here that Fi users (ENFPs especially) tend to want to discuss problems in public without going to the offending person first. My first reaction to that is that it creates a massive mess to clean up, rarely ends up resolving anything and usually spawns several more issues. I'm focussed on the end result it has. I'm understanding that they feel that anything less would be sweeping something public under the carpet instead of being transparent about it. I also suspect that the act of airing those thoughts and emotions and sticking up for someone is more important to them than the resulting outcome. The purpose of starting that kind of thread maybe has nothing to do with what happens in the end?
    It has everything to do with the endpoint. Fi in these scenarios believes that public disclosure offers the best potential to ensure that even justice is dispensed. Public scrutiny is the only tool that Fi often has to try to be heard or effect change.

    Quiet approaches generally make little or no difference in my experience. I mean really, even look at my example above. I would have had to make a huge Fi display if I were to have changed the course of those events. Me raising alarm bells privately only ensured that the agenda could continue, and alerted those who had the agenda that I was wise to it. So I was shut-out further.

    Fi users don't surround ourselves with an Fi posse that comes to our aid no matter what we say; we say what we feel as individuals and then other Fi users will sweep in to weigh in too on the matter.

    From a Fe standpoint, it seems like just as much damage as the initial offense is incurred by not allowing the person a chance to respond or remedy the situation in anyway by making them aware of it. It is possible to me (maybe this is Ni-Fe?) that there may be many reasons they acted as they did and perhaps not all of them were spawned with bad motivation or in an attempt to hurt someone or squash them. To me it seems unfair that instead of talking to the person in a way that isn't going to cause them to lose face (or face untrue accusations, especially when you may not have all the information), it jumps right away to public berating and generalizations. While an issue may have happened publicly, it may even be that a person may not be able to defend themselves without revealing information that would expose the other person or hurt them by having everyone know.
    There have been some raw Fi outpourings recently. I'm not saying they are right, and they sure aren't often effective here. But OMG, can't someone try to diffuse them at least instead of performing the equivalent of a public stoning?

    Active listening works on Fi and Fe. No one said, "Hey W, it looks to me like you're feeling frustrated and that lots of people are misinterpreting your motivations here. Is that right?" Heck, I didn't participate in those threads but I could see those threads devolving. I could have been a help there and I regret not jumping in to help temper both the Fi expression and the resultant backlash. IRL, it's so natural for me to help people understand each other's POV. Here on the forum, not so easy.

    The best approach would have been for W to have his vent, and just help him get it out of his system. That means hearing without judging or coaching him on how to "better" get his message across. The fire would have burnt out much faster and he would have felt better and the forum wouldn't have had so much drama around them.

    Active listening. I've said it before, and it's one of the best takeaways interacting here that I have realized - it's the only tool I have used that addresses both Fe and Fi. Whoever laid the foundations of it for fostering communication is a genius in my eyes.

    Saving face is often a euphemism for simply maintaining fraudulent facades.

    I think I understand the reasoning that a Fi person may use initially. What I'm fuzzy on is what is the outcome that you would foresee in ideal Fi world when you operate in this way? That everyone had a chance to say their say? That the public is aware that an offense happened? That you feel better having expressed your sentiments and now your conscience is clear?
    Let's envision a scenario: your kid is bullied on the bus, constantly. Every day going to school is like a torture. You as the parent, are unaware. You know your kid is hurting about something, but you haven't found out why yet, you haven't found the right question to open that silence. Then one day, your child decides they aren't going to be bullied anymore, so they punch the bully kid in the face on the bus. Your kid is reported to the school office, and the bully kid appears to be innocent. Your kid is now the one in trouble!

    That's why Fi goes public. To ensure the provocateur is duly recognized, rightly disciplined. Very few people pop their Fi cork for something to do. They do it because all of the data is vital to ensure a fair verdict. The bully kid should not be permitted to remain anonymous or appear innocent.

    If you have done this and it hasn't turned out well for you (in a workplace setting, etc), does that affect what you do the next time? How would you see a person in charge ideally responding to that kind of outpouring? How would you see co-workers ideally responding?
    It's a recurring theme in my life. I am required to do what I must do. I don't mean that in some holier than thou martyr way.

    A person in charge could best address this via active listening, making sure the Fi person feels heard. Co-workers the same - the problem is many people shy away from outpourings of emotional expression, finding them somehow distasteful. But we all have emotions! Why not just honor them for what they are, without judging. It makes it far more likely they'll have less and less impact over time, because they have been heard.

    To ignore Fi for me would be like knowing someone cut the brakes in your car but I let you go for a drive anyway. I see the problem, and will try to interact with you to ensure we're all going to be OK.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #270
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for taking the time to go through all that. That helps give me a better overall picture.

    Regarding Quebec vs Alberta, Alberta would be like North Dakota or Montana or something for communication style.

    With W, the reason we tend to respond that way is that wild accusations get made when the person is feeling frustrated at the time. Then within two or three posts they calm down and it turns out that much of what was going on was more based around a fuzzier underlying feeling (which may be valid, but is hard to address if we don't know what it is) rather than any specific issue that can be dealt with and righted.

    Meanwhile, the mods as a group are routinely told that they are inconsistent, unfair and abuse their authority. I take those kind of charges seriously as fairness and listening to other people is a very important value to me and if there's wrongdoing, I would like to change that. When I contact any of those people separately, they just say, "Well, you're cool. I forgot you were a mod". If I ask what happened, there are no specific people or examples of what happened so that we can fix anything.

    Meanwhile, other members of the forum are left thinking that perhaps there is stuff going on that they have not been aware of and our names are sullied. Those people are people with their own stressors and issues too! We are not free to respond in kind and it ends up using up huge amount of emotional resources and time, when sometimes it is just a thoughtless spur of the moment decision to post a public thread. The outburst has calmed down, but left several small fires smoldering that now need to be addressed which use up further time and emotional resources. Something that was urgent enough to spend a whole evening on, now suddenly is "Oops, okay then. I was just feeling a little edgy". That seems very disrespectful and capricious towards the people who were being engaged in the discussion and against whom accusations were made.

    I realize that may be an example of how Fi can be displayed under stress or if it's immature, and I realize my reaction isn't helping. I understand that active listening is usually more productive, and in my real life interactions and much of my communication here, I do that. When it is public though, I feel that sometimes it validates something that is just someone else unfairly dumping on other people. It actually ends up creating a bigger problem than if you refuse to engage and give it validity. When I don't actively listen in those types of threads, it is a conscious choice, based on my past experience observing the person's interactions with others and the mods in the past.

    At the same time, I just don't understand if they want something changed, why they can't see if it can be addressed on a small scale first before dragging people in who aren't even connected to the original problem. Would you say this is a way of having witnesses, much like the bus example you used?

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