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  1. #251
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And who do you think I learned that phrase from? Some ENFPs.
    admittedly, i think it's hilarious. even if it means you can use it against us, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I guess my objection is that it seems to me sometimes that Fi users see Fe as always blindly following the majority, which I feel simply isn't the case. They are reluctant to create conflict, but if they've determined that they must for conscience' sake or because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks they do. It just seems to me sometimes like Fi users see themselves as always standing up for the side of truth and justice, while Fe users mindlessly going along with whatever the most forceful leader wants or what the norm is.
    of course, but then, those are stereotypes. we also have the stereotype of Fi being butt-hurt, so to speak, and Fe being warm lovey dovey sweet kind and taking care of everyone.

    i think the point here is not blindly following the majority at all, but rather the quiet usage of the majority. in the example of Bob i do not see any blind following. rather, i see a Ni vision and Fe interaction with the congregation to move them to a place they didn't necessarily either know about or want to go, with people gradually realizing it was somewhere they didn't want to go. even accepting those rules as a parish is rather Fe - for the sake of harmony to stay with the greater church. Fi would be more likely to have the congregation discuss whether it wants an overhaul and how it should go about doing that, rather than quietly and subtlety changing things.

    so that you are aware, you did seem very quick to dismiss it in this situation. it was like PeaceBaby took the time to write this enormous post and commentary and you were like, oh, no, that's just church rules. i understand now that you were still in the process of assessment, but it wasn't very clear, so that you understand why there was/is some frustration directed towards you. perhaps that has happened with other Fe examples too. Ti requires a more stringent analysis than Fi does, and it's easy for Ne to see through a lens of something being a "Fi problem", whereas a Fe/Ti user might seek greater confirmation of accuracy before being willing to use that lens.

    Taking the example of Te, I think Te sometimes misses stuff that Ti considers in depth and has put a lot of thought into. If Te users have a working model already, they are unlikely to consider something new, but unsure, even if it could have the potential to be much better. That doesn't mean that they would never consider doing something that breaks that pattern, but it's true that they would be more inclined to go with what's been proven.

    I think maybe Fe is the same. They are less likely to consider a new way of going about handling people if they've found something that works for now. It's possible that Fi has a better way, but it's also possible that it won't be practical or that it may fail, so usually they go with what they know. They might occasionally seek out Fi perceptions, but it is true that they would be more inclined to habitually operate by the rules that have already been put in place. Does that seem analogous or no?
    i agree with you completely here.

  2. #252
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but then, we have Te, not Ti, which says that getting to the point efficiently is more important than how specifically we word it.
    Getting to the point and how something is worded, both matter to me.
    Considering the walls of text that some ENFPs unload in this forum, I find it odd you brought up "getting to the point efficiently."

  3. #253
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Getting to the point and how something is worded, both matter to me.
    Considering the walls of text that some ENFPs unload in this forum, I find it odd you brought up "getting to the point efficiently."
    HAH. fair point.

    obviously both matter to me too, you troll.

    but seriously, it's hard to talk about the introverted subjective functions (Ti/Fi). hence the walls of text, i think.

  4. #254
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    My boss just told me today, if you can't say in it ten words or less, do I really want to know?

    He was teasing me about my very wordy and round about way of addressing an uncomfortable situation. I could have said it in three words, but no, if I can say it with more words I will.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    HAH. fair point.

    obviously both matter to me too, you troll.

    but seriously, it's hard to talk about the introverted subjective functions (Ti/Fi). hence the walls of text, i think.
    I've noticed that ENFPs "block post" more though...we divide things into lines or paragraphs, even when we do the proverbial wall of text it's still more chopped up

    I sometimes find certain NTP and INFJ posts difficult to pay attention to. Like I seriously don't want to read the entire thing and would rather just skim over it and skip around.

  6. #256
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I especially liked the bolded comment here. That helps make more sense to me. It's always seemed to me like Fi never is happy. I guess it's that it only shows itself (in group issues that we're talking about) when there's a problem, not when things are going swimmingly. Is that accurate?
    It shows itself frequently in concern for others. But that will be a private expression, rather than a public display.
    So if consensus is not a goal for you guys, would you say that it's a matter of allowing everyone to be understood before the head person/people make the final decision?
    Not necessarily, no. "Being understood" isn't a priority for me. Nor is even being heard most of the time. One would hope that the person in charge would want to be notified of anything significant that they may have overlooked, (although that's not always the case). Ideally, the decision made is the "best" one - one which takes account of all the significant variables. This requires that people set aside their ego to some extent and are open to discussion without feeling threatened by the spectre of "disharmony" - that's often the biggest obstacle for Fi-users.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've noticed on here that Fi users (ENFPs especially) tend to want to discuss problems in public without going to the offending person first. My first reaction to that is that it creates a massive mess to clean up, rarely ends up resolving anything and usually spawns several more issues.
    I think I understand the reasoning that a Fi person may use initially. What I'm fuzzy on is what is the outcome that you would foresee in ideal Fi world when you operate in this way? That everyone had a chance to say their say? That the public is aware that an offense happened? That you feel better having expressed your sentiments and now your conscience is clear?

    If you have done this and it hasn't turned out well for you (in a workplace setting, etc), does that affect what you do the next time? How would you see a person in charge ideally responding to that kind of outpouring? How would you see co-workers ideally responding?
    Do you realize how leading your questions are?

    This post is more like an attempt to persuade, rather than to understand - that's how it comes across to me.

    Anyway, what I think you might be overlooking once more is that you don't necessarily see all those occasions when the Fi-user is dealing with the problem privately - you are only exposed to those situations where they are forced into the position of last resort. Perhaps more extroverted types will act first, think later (you're maybe thinking about Wonka here?) but in general introverted judgers will not be interested in making a scene unless there is no other way. Speaking personally - I give people the benefit of the doubt repeatedly and try to deal with things privately, unless to do so would mean covering something up that needs to be exposed for the public good, or, they have behaved contemptibly and I no longer afford them the privilege of private interaction.

    One thing that really galls me is the whole notion of "saving face". Fe is interested in hierarchy - constructing it and sustaining it. Fi has no such interest. It sees such things as superficial and irrelevant. It does not value or respect a person's position but their individuality. It is a leveler. This is perhaps what Fe distrusts about it most.

    I don't care if you're a mod or not, do you make sense, are you trustworthy, are you consistent? These are the things that matter to me. There have been occasions on this board where mods have been forced to step down because they have acted inappropriately and yet they have announced their "resignation". I HATE that. It's a lie. It's cowardly. It's about saving face. This happens in every political arena: whitewashes designed to preserve the appearance of integrity when the whole thing is corrupt. This focus on appearances, and particularly the (false) appearance of harmony is what makes Fe so susceptible to corruption, IMO. Fi is the conscience that steps in and makes things uncomfortable. It's the thorn in your side. It's the reminder that there are more important things than preserving order.

    At this point (before the kneejerk backlash), I'd like to point out that EVERYONE has Fe and Fi in them. And that whenever you say "well, hold on, I do that too" you are probably referring to your own Fi use. Fe users don't use Fe exclusively (that would make them impossibly shallow - like "infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming."*) ; Fi users don't use Fi exclusively (that would make them impossibly obstinate, oblivious and incapable of effective communication; we need norms and harmonious interpretations - what else is Language, after all?)

    /statement of the obvious

    To help delineate what we are talking about, here are the Activities for Developing functions from Functions of Type (Hartzler & Hartzler):

    Fe

    1. Look for and identify group norms or acceptable behaviours
    2. Read cultural values and operate according to them
    3. Build relationships
    4. Practice self-disclosure
    5. Meet other people's needs
    6. Organize and operate to create group harmony
    7. Identify other people's needs and emotional states from their behaviour
    8. Do whatever is necessary to maintain relationships
    9. Judge behaviours according to group values
    10. Objectively educate other people about appropriate behaviour


    Fi


    1. Use your emotions to identify what is important, your deeply held values
    2. Examine what is important to you
    3. Examine universal values [from a perspective of personal significance]
    4. Maintain integrity
    5. Use your values to guide your decisions
    6. Support other people in maintaining their personal integrity
    7. Subjectively sense other people's emotional state
    8. Judge ideas, attitudes and behaviors against [your] values
    9. Crusade for what is right



    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The person who starts a thread can set the tone. The thread began with butt-hurt feelings. I get it, I get it. Fi= butt-hurt feelings. Great! Super! Wunderbar!
    The tone of this thread only deteriorated once you appeared. This is a pattern that you seem oblivious to. That's the generous interpretation. The less generous one is that you are a belligerent troll who is determined to undermine and antagonise any and all discussion of the Feeling functions. Perhaps you should talk to someone about this unhealthy fixation/habit. PRIVATELY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I once claimed, and it's simplistic but perhaps begins to express the differing priorities, that there are people in this world requiring that we have good relationships before we can work together well, and there are people requiring that we work together well before we can have a good relationship. The claim is an attempt to encapsulate Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi approaches to group harmony.
    Brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Of course, at some point, pragmatism has to come into play. And that's why Te rules Western capitalism and Fe rules Western social interaction. But, and this is a significant but, there are cultures where Ti rules and Fi rules. Which means it's not Te and Fe's god-given place to be the standard. It means that one group's priorities are given more value than the other.
    Can you expand on this with examples, please? What does that look like? If Fi is the "standard", doesn't it then become Fe almost by definition? What is an example of a Ti-dom culture? (and when can I move there? )

    (*Ephesians 4:14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    One thing that really galls me is the whole notion of "saving face". Fe is interested in hierarchy - constructing it and sustaining it. Fi has no such interest. It sees such things as superficial and irrelevant. It does not value or respect a person's position but their individuality. It is a leveler. This is perhaps what Fe distrusts about it most.

    I don't care if you're a mod or not, do you make sense, are you trustworthy, are you consistent? These are the things that matter to me. There have been occasions on this board where mods have been forced to step down because they have acted inappropriately and yet they have announced their "resignation". I HATE that. It's a lie. It's cowardly. It's about saving face. This happens in every political arena: whitewashes designed to preserve the appearance of integrity when the whole thing is corrupt. This focus on appearances, and particularly the (false) appearance of harmony is what makes Fe so susceptible to corruption, IMO. Fi is the conscience that steps in and makes things uncomfortable. It's the thorn in your side. It's the reminder that there are more important things than preserving order.


    At this point (before the kneejerk backlash), I'd like to point out that EVERYONE has Fe and Fi in them. And that whenever you say "well, hold on, I do that too" you are probably referring to your own Fi use. Fe users don't use Fe exclusively (that would make them impossibly shallow - like "infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.") ; Fi users don't user Fi exclusively (that would make them impossibly obstinate, oblivious and incapable of effective communication; we need norms and harmonious interpretations - what else is Language, after all?)
    /statement of the obvious

    To help delineate what we are talking about, here are the Activities for Developing functions from Functions of Type (Hartzler & Hartzler):

    Fe

    1. Look for and identify group norms or acceptable behaviours
    2. Read cultural values and operate according to them
    3. Build relationships
    4. Practice self-disclosure
    5. Meet other people's needs
    6. Organize and operate to create group harmony
    7. Identify other people's needs and emotional states from their behaviour
    8. Do whatever is necessary to maintain relationships
    9. Judge behaviours according to group values
    10. Objectively educate other people about appropriate behaviour


    Fi


    1. Use your emotions to identify what is important, your deeply held values
    2. Examine what is important to you
    3. Examine universal values [from a perspective of personal significance]
    4. Maintain integrity
    5. Use your values to guide your decisions
    6. Support other people in maintaining their personal integrity
    7. Subjectively sense other people's emotional state
    8. Judge ideas, attitudes and behaviors against [your] values
    9. Crusade for what is right

    I agree that everyone has a little Fi and Fe in them. The shadow functions and all of that.

    But sometimes Fi can look like Fe (and vice versa). For example, just a few minutes ago in another thread I called something "inappropriate" and that looks like Fe.

    However, what I really meant is that I empathize with the person who was the "victim" in the situation, and that that particular behavior is extremely offensive TO ME and I would be very upset if it happened to me. So that's Fi, really, at heart. It's not Fe even if it looks like it.

  8. #258
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    But sometimes Fi can look like Fe (and vice versa). For example, just a few minutes ago in another thread I called something "inappropriate" and that looks like Fe.

    However, what I really meant is that I empathize with the person who was the "victim" in the situation, and that that particular behavior is extremely offensive TO ME and I would be very upset if it happened to me. So that's Fi, really, at heart. It's not Fe even if it looks like it.
    I guess it comes down to motivation rather than the sentiment expressed or the use of specific terms, like "inappropriate" - which can be overlaid with many different meanings.

    If your motivation is to suggest that something is inappropriate in this context, it's Fe. If you are suggesting that it's universally inappropriate to behave in that way, it's Fi. (Fi's values are context independent).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #259
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I don't care if you're a mod or not, do you make sense, are you trustworthy, are you consistent? These are the things that matter to me. There have been occasions on this board where mods have been forced to step down because they have acted inappropriately and yet they have announced their "resignation". I HATE that. It's a lie. It's cowardly. It's about saving face.
    Well, I think there was only ever one resignation (the other was an outright firing, for inappropriate behavior); and if we're thinking about the same "incident," I would agree with you on that one. Most of us got stuck holding the bag with no time to process; later on, for me personally, once I had time to think, I was kinda pissed off because it was all exactly what you said it was here, I felt used, and it damaged/killed my relationship with said person. If there had been more time to process, I think things would have been presented differently regardless of what "type" each staffer happened to be.

    The tie-in to the topic in question is that I don't think Fe/Fi are exclusive, as you say later, and since people are a mix of all perspectives and individual in nature, often both perspectives will show up in varying degrees in the same person. Few people are just one or the other, and I see uses for both.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #260
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I guess it comes down to motivation rather than the sentiment expressed or the use of specific terms, like "inappropriate" - which can be overlaid with many different meanings.

    If your motivation is to suggest that something is inappropriate in this context, it's Fe. If you are suggesting that it's universally inappropriate to behave in that way, it's Fi. (Fi's values are context independent).
    I have plenty of context independent values (it's only natural, right?). I don't necessarily speak them in a manner that is context independent though. If that makes sense. I might vocalize them in a way where I try to hone in on the issues that bear the most relevance or could be personalized for someone. There are times where I'm more Fi like and y'know.. I've had it and I don't really need to be tactful. But I don't have it in me to behave like Fi fulltime, I guess. I thought I did, but no. OTOH, I think I'll bring things up more than IFPs (I could be wrong, but it seems that they have a higher level of reserve, whether they disapprove or not).

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