[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Fidelia]

Yeah, I identify with that. For example, in that INFJ Common Issues thread, several Fi users felt that I was actually angry at EW. While I was irritated, I actually didn't feel personally invested enough to feel anger. I got blunter because it appeared that the message wasn't getting through when I was more diplomatic. I think other Fe people recognized what may have been their own initial response when they read what I wrote, so didn't think as much of it.

Some Fi users, on the other hand, didn't recognize that response as familiar, so equated it with something different than I actually felt and saw it as being more personal because they would have been likely to feel that way if they had expressed themselves in that manner or invested that much time and effort in the discussion and it was going negatively. (I think, anyway...)

 

[Thalassa]

But it's true that maybe we HOPE that people will just know, and are disappointed when they don't, or when the reaction we get is so different from what we were anticipating.

Yeah I think that people do this, in general.

Ultimately, I think it's unrealistic to expect people to just "get us" without discussion. It doesn't stop people - including me, who generally likes to discuss things - from still doing it, though. I'm totally guilty of thinking that I feel something SO STRONGLY that the other person should be able to just SEE IT. lulz. That's not the way it really works, of course. That's why psychotherapists are always telling people that relationship success is about communication.

I really like to get things out in the open and talk about misunderstandings, but I think I sometimes scare people off with my bluntness, so there are times when I will avoid confronting someone about something because I want to be nice or for them to like me, I guess. Ultimately it's counterproductive though. When I avoid talking to someone about something resentment can just continue to inwardly build and start seeping out in bizarre ways. Also, misunderstandings can just keep happening as long as the subject is avoided, and next thing you know it's a bigger problem than it started out being.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Honestly, I just don't identify with this behavior, and I find myself in the position of being projected on often enough to be wary of making such assumptions. I'm not going to try and explain something I do not think has anything to do with the Fi Ne mindset itself, especially when I hold the exact opposite to be true, which is that FiNe people tend to be very aware of the subjectiveness of their own feeling, to understand the individual nature of feelings and emotions in general, so as to be very careful not to invalidate feelings which differ from their own or to interpret feelings and emotions based on how they would personally react. Appropriateness, standard interpretations and accepted modes of expressions, and "normal" emotional responses mostly seems the realm of Fe, IMO.

I especially think online examples are not very good, as much is lost in writing like tone of voice, facial expression, and body language. Not to say it excuses insisting someone feels a certain way when they do not, but it can account for a lot of misunderstanding.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think it's important to clarify that I think (and other Fi users can correct me if I am wrong here) that the word "angry" is kind of a catch-all phrase.

Let's look at a definition of anger for a sec:

"feeling or expressing annoyance, animosity, or resentment; enraged"

Some common synonyms for anger: irate, incensed, enraged, infuriated, furious, mad; provoked, frustrated, annoyed, irritated.

I am not likely to ask, "Are you irate?" or "Are you incensed?" Angry is a word that covers a whole myriad of possibilities.

At least that's why I think it gets used in a more global way.

 

[Synapse]

Extraverted Feeling (Fe) - The extraverted feeling function concerns itself with other people’s emotions - especially those that lie on or near the surface and are easy to sympathize with. Placing a value on people’s feeling, extraverted feeling relates to them with discrimination, empathy, and tact. At its best, it tends to appreciate the strengths of people, but it also seeks concrete gratitude and validation. In its shadow aspect, extraverted feeling tends to discriminate against feelings that are less easy to identify with, and therefore less socially acceptable. The result is that extraverted feeling tends to ignore or harshly judge emotional needs that do not validate collective norms. This kind of response can lead to forms of bullying and prejudice, as majority values are emphasized at the expense of other, more individual values. INFJs and ENFJs are Fe users.

• INFJ - Ni > Fe > Ti > Se
• ENFJ - Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

Introverted Feeling (Fi) - The introverted feeling function concerns itself with the values expressed in the archetypal aspect of situations, often relating to the actual situation by measuring it against an ideal. When the actual is found wanting, introverted feeling can become intensely disappointed. Although it often finds it hard to articulate its judgments, or simply prefers to keep them to itself, introverted feeling also tends to ignore social limits regarding the communication of critical responses, to the point of appearing to depreciate others. It may withhold positive feelings as insincere and fail to offer healing gestures to smooth over difficult situations. In its shadow aspect, introverted feeling becomes rageful, anxious, and sullen. It may withdraw all support for attitudes it has decided are simply wrong, even at the risk of rupturing relationship and agreed-upon standards of fellow-feeling. INFPs and ENFPs are Fi users.

• ENFP - Ne > Fi > Te > Si
• INFP - Fi > Ne > Si > Te

I gotta read through this thread properly. I found this curious info on how we start processing from adolescence to midlife with ESFJ and ISFP contrast or something.

The Eight Function-Attitudes

Extraverted – Fe (ESFJ, ENFJ)

* Feeling is relationship-oriented.
* Mediator seeking harmony between people and cultural values.
* Connects emotionally, attentive and focused towards others, sometimes at a cost to self.
* Skilled at recognizing and sympathizing with the needs of others.
* Warm demeanor, making people feel at ease.

Fe-s project their focus outward into relationships with others. As an extraverted function, their feeling skills help them understand how and what others value and feel. This external focus means they neglect and may be unaware of their own feelings and values. They define who they are by the role they play (parent, son/daughter, sibling, spouse, friend, career). They may incorporate the beliefs of others as their own without looking inward to determine whether they ring true personally. They wear a persona-mask to fit their cultural reality and fail to realize that they are not the mask; their persona is their defense against abandonment.

Fe-s greatest need is to be needed and thus there greatest fear is that they will become obsolete. Extraverts are people pleasers in general, but Fe-s depend on pleasing others more than any other type. Paying attention to themselves would distract them from the busy task of rescuing the world. Looking inward risks discovering that their feelings and values are not congruent with their lives and the values and beliefs of others. They thus avoid this inward journey since what lies within has the power to dismantle their reality—even if their reality is a house of cards.

ESFJs use their sensory skills to evaluate the data and process through their feeling function, which being extraverted focuses on what others value and feel. They view negative data (a child’s school failures or drug problems) as direct evidence of their failure and thus blame themselves. If in addition, they evaluate the historical evidence which points to the positive uses of their skills, they become resentful and offer reminders of all they have done. They will not review their record of successes (a daughter who is a lawyer) to provide evidence that they are not failures—this requires more developed intuition. A single failure cancels multiple successes. Self-blame and resentment are the necessary ingredients for martyrdom.

Midlife Development & Overuse: They give up their lives for the benefit of everyone else, risking martyrdom, whether those they serve succeed or fail in the lives the Fe-s have given them. Midlife becomes the great scream: it’s my turn! As the people they have served become independent and successful in their own lives, an Fe may begin to feel unneeded and underappreciated, resenting their successes and eventually blame them for his sacrifices and resultant lower levels of success. If rather than success, those an Fe has served bring hardship and failures upon themselves, he may feel resentment due to being exposed as a fraud. The other person’s failure strips away the Fe’s mask and everyone can now see that he is not the world’s greatest dad, son, husband…

Ignoring the inward call, Fe-s become increasingly dependent on the opinions and validation of others. As the world’s rescuer, they need for the world to be dependent; independence threatens their existence. They thus may attempt to create dependence either by making themselves indispensable or through more destructive behaviours—emotionally hurting or trying to destroy self-worth in others: You’ll never be anything without me. This negative behaviour causes their feeling function to falter and they may fantasize feelings and beliefs in others that fit their need and imagine crises and failures where there are none.

ENFJs evaluate their intuitive ideas, trying to understand patterns to determine how they went wrong, but with an undeveloped sensory function they fail to search for or notice the sensory data. ESFJs, with their skilled sensing function, see the data clearly and refuse to waste time reviewing possibilities—which they cannot see anyway since their intuitive function is undeveloped. ESFJs want to fix things now through immediate action, without giving consideration to what the action should be or whether it is a resolution. They need to develop their 3˚ function of Si, considering the limitations and facts of the situation or Ni, considering the possibilities.

With a refusal to grow and look inward, they may become bitter as resentment increases in midlife. Their self-blame is tormentuous. As their inferior thinking function surfaces, they fill with negative thoughts and cycle from self-blame to external projections. They keep score of everything they did which helped others and how they are now underappreciated. This self-righteous martyrdom serves to alienate them further from those who they depend on to feel needed and they cycle deeper into anger and depression.

Introverted – Fi (ISFP, INFP)

* Detaches feelings from influence of the external world for focus on internalization.
* Feeling is a private act and though expression may not be difficult, articulation may.
* Seems distant and uninvolved.
* Seeks internal harmony with personal ideas and values.
* Processes data internally outside detection, thus may seem slow or idle.

The inwardly focused Fi mistrusts external influences. He evaluates his feelings in private as a protection from invasive external data. Fi-s fear people will not give them the space to sort through their feelings, which they may suppress if not allowed privacy and solitude.

Within Fi-s there is an indecisiveness; there is a desire to sort through their feelings, embrace their feelings and learn what their feelings are trying to say. They do not want to be presented with choices; instead, they hope to find meaning and clarity through the exploration of their feelings. They are like a rudderless ship floating at the mercy of the wind. Instead of setting goals to get through unpleasant situations, Fi-s want to immerse themselves in the experience, they are certain that everything has meaning and they are determined to learn from it.

This immersion is more valid for INFPs. ISFPs sensing function encourages action, but without foresight or excitement. Without intuition’s ability to generate multiple ideas, or outside assistance, they recognize few options. They feel resigned to act, though often without believing their actions will lead to success—but it is better than doing nothing. Rather than rudderless, their rudder is random. They go with the flow and then make a sudden change and go with the changed flow. Because he is making a change, the ISFP defends his actions as attempts at solutions, but in actuality his need to act without first thinking or reflecting is a coping device used to avoid dealing directly with the conflicts in his life.

Fi-s desire for harmony causes them to make choices geared toward pleasing others rather than themselves. Thus their hesitancy to make choices is a fear that they will sacrifice their authenticity by putting others first. Feeling thus pressured, they may withdraw from others to protect their sense of Self, but this also creates a feeling of loneliness and isolation. They may also not be aware of their withdrawal and feel rejected.

Fi-s may seem passive—rocking the boat would affect the flow and disrupt their attempt to derive meaning from the experience. They are accepting of situations without bothering to evaluate the situation to determine whether acceptance is the wisest choice.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

They understand the Serenity Prayer, but feel it is either not their place or within their abilities to change the situation; they do not yet have the wisdom to know the difference.

Without a well-developed intuition function, ISFPs have limited ability to recognize patterns and associations. They absorb sensory information, but dismiss the information if it does not make sense to them. This may seem logical, but often they dismiss things which are rich in connections and that make sense to others. They have trouble grasping abstraction which is a trait of intuition. To grow through this challenge, they need to learn to trust the information coming from outside sources—their sensory function. In addition they need to embrace their feeling preference and allow inward reflection—something they may have neglected in building an external-world persona.

Midlife Development & Overuse: At midlife, the greater insistence of both the primary function, which may have been dormant, and the undeveloped 3Ëš function, causes a feeling of entrapment. But since Fi1s go with the flow, they feel resigned; this is either their fate and they will accept it or they must experience it because it is a necessary life lesson. This thought process seems as though it embraces the journey, but it is actually a form of avoidance; the midlife call is to act while considering the consequences. For ISFPs it is to learn to recognize the subjective patterns in the objective data and for INFPs it is to consider the sensory data as relevant; this can help guide them and they will learn to recognize their best choices.

Fi-s feel that thinking, which is their inferior function, destroys the sense of wonder and simple beauty within an idea or object. Analyzing God and religion destroys both the mystery and personal experience; dissecting a flower destroys its simple and perfect beauty by separating it into cells, processes, and chemicals. Thinking, therefore, destroys the authenticity of an object or idea.

Not wanting to destroy their sense of wonder, they avoid using their thinking function. They are often overwhelmed when required to think. Their thoughts are often ephemeral, disappearing before they can process and analyze them. They may become flooded if their thoughts do not dissipate quickly. Thoughts may refuse to leave and they will spend hours in afterthoughts, reviewing conversations, puzzles, problems for how they could have responded differently.

I know I'm not really addressing the questions, I thought these descriptions were helpful.

And that's just...so wrong!

Bull dust, I analyze the crap out of stuff, even so am I doomed to live with Fi for the rest of my life...gerrr!

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ Yeah, I analyze like crazy also.

This part below also sounds like enneagram 9 Fi much more than e4 Fi....
I feel it is almost opposite for me as a 4w5 - I tend to make decisions geared towards maintaining authenticity, which can make me put them off so as not to disrupt external harmony needlessly.

Fi-s desire for harmony causes them to make choices geared toward pleasing others rather than themselves. Thus their hesitancy to make choices is a fear that they will sacrifice their authenticity by putting others first. Feeling thus pressured, they may withdraw from others to protect their sense of Self, but this also creates a feeling of loneliness and isolation. They may also not be aware of their withdrawal and feel rejected.

I'm interested in how Fe-ers view the Fe description. It would be useful to know what they think is accurate or not.

I've also thought of the basic concept of Fi not seeking to affect or be affected, but to simply gauge according to its inner ideal and react when necessary, or on the occasions when something hits on an ideal (positively or negatively).

Fe, however, seeks to affect and to be affected, and to adjust its gauge to be based on what can be validated externally. Hence, the "mirroring" and need for consensus and focus on results so as to create general standards to keep relations smooth.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It doesn't sound altogether like how I would describe my Fi either ...

 

[Tallulah]

I think it's important to clarify that I think (and other Fi users can correct me if I am wrong here) that the word "angry" is kind of a catch-all phrase.

Let's look at a definition of anger for a sec:

"feeling or expressing annoyance, animosity, or resentment; enraged"

Some common synonyms for anger: irate, incensed, enraged, infuriated, furious, mad; provoked, frustrated, annoyed, irritated.

I am not likely to ask, "Are you irate?" or "Are you incensed?" Angry is a word that covers a whole myriad of possibilities.

At least that's why I think it gets used in a more global way.

Ah, this is a good point...when I do pay attention to my emotional state, I try to be as precise as possible in nailing down a description for it, for my own personal benefit. And to me, "angry" is pretty high on the freakout scale--pretty close to "irate" or "furious." Maybe that's why I don't like to be called angry, since I very rarely reach that level. I'm usually operating closer to "frustrated" or "irritated," or just a little thrown off balance, which is much more manageable and transitory as I'm trying to figure out what's causing it so I won't be that way anymore.

 

[MacGuffin]

angry >>>>> annoyed

 

[PeaceBaby]

^Thanks for that clarity Tallulah ...

Wanted to share a summary of my thoughts over the last few days.

One reason to engage in an emotionally-charged discussion is to try to lay a foundation of openness and trust, upon which a relationship can be built; I felt that although some new ground briefly opened up in this thread, for me it seemed to fill back in quickly. Sometimes I just watch these threads, sometimes participate, and I can see we all mean well; the NFP's want to be understood, the NFJ's desire understanding. To me, it seems the closer we come to that, the farther away that goal becomes. "OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet ..." Have I emerged from this feeling understood? No.

I'm no pessimist, and I'm not saying the "quest" has no value, but I am questioning whether Fe / Fi differences can be bridged at this kind of global level, through discussion alone. It's more of a one on one task, and it takes a great investment of time and energy, just like the construction of any relationship in our lives.

Think about a culture one has never visited. A person could try to learn all about it from reading and talking to people who have lived there or been there. But nothing would substitute for their own visit, their own experience of it. As fidelia said, she feels these discussions provide a tourist level "guidebook" for interacting, common phrases, some maps too. Maybe that's the best that can be expected, and at least that's something.

We live in an Fe culture. I've always been motivated to interact and work with people to foster communication and understanding, so I have invested huge amounts of time and energy to work effectively within a system that does not favor my natural way of expressing myself. I suppress a lot of my natural tendencies in order to "fit" ... and I have learned enough and can sense enough to do pretty well in my daily living (if I may be so bold as to say that). But for all my caring about getting along, all the experience I have in doing so - it's no guarantee either.

One affirmation I had yesterday from this thread is that perhaps I haven't done myself any favors trying so hard to maintain harmony and "get along" with everyone, play by "the rules". I'm not suggesting I abandon all that knowledge, but in "hiding my own light" I have probably missed opportunities where I truly could have been myself and been accepted for that. No doubt much of that is my personal growth journey, and saying some of that could be related to cognitive functions is vague at best.

But I guess I feel that in general Fe users don't recognize the extent, the massive extent of the risk Fi users take in engaging them on an Fi level. And I do appreciate that Fe users do have to push out of their comfort zone to respond to Fi users. Interpersonal dynamics involve so much more than the limited scope of cognitive functions too, although some of the trends here do seem telling. I would only ask the Fe users be a little forgiving of Fi sometimes ... I think we feel more misunderstood in the whole equation.

Thanks everyone in this thread who shared their thoughts and feelings in the pursuit of growth.

P.S. fidelia, I asked you a whole whack of questions up there ... you haven't answered yet.

 

[MacGuffin]

But I guess I feel that in general that Fe users don't recognize the extent, the massive extent of the risk Fi users take in engaging them on an Fi level. And I do appreciate that Fe users do have to push out of their comfort zone to respond to Fi users.

May I ask what the risk is? Loss of identity?

 

[PeaceBaby]

You question-pepperer!

I guess I would say it's like standing naked in front of a bunch of bystanders, and feeling under scrutiny. I fear the rejection that might await me.

(Although my husband has no complaints ... )

 

[Resonance]

Phase 1: facial representation of emotion.

There are 6 universal human emotions which can be recognized across cultures around the world.
-happy
-angry
-sad
-surprised
-afraid
-disgusted/contempt

Babies can only recognize the first three. The next two take a while to develop, and even older children (pre-puberty) often read contempt as anger.

 

[MacGuffin]

You question-pepperer!

I guess I would say it's like standing naked in front of a bunch of bystanders, and feeling under scrutiny. I fear the rejection that might await me.

(Although my husband has no complaints ... )

That ain't no thang!

Rejection will toughen you up! :workout:

 

[Synapse]

^ Yeah, I analyze like crazy also.

This part below also sounds like enneagram 9 Fi much more than e4 Fi....
I feel it is almost opposite for me as a 4w5 - I tend to make decisions geared towards maintaining authenticity, which can make me put them off so as not to disrupt external harmony needlessly.

I've also thought of the basic concept of Fi not seeking to affect or be affected, but to simply gauge according to its inner ideal and react when necessary, or on the occasions when something hits on an ideal (positively or negatively).

Ah that's what it is, the descriptions seemed somewhat murky and there did seem to be a missed step in interpretation too. Thanks for saying. And yes to ideals reactivity when needed.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah but you vented to someone you weren't close to and she's going to have her own perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder if certain Ts (not Fe or Fi users) presume that Fs should just know what they're thinking or feeling, and so then get annoyed when we're wrong in our perceptions.

Yes, I think it's for a lot of different reasons, not necessarily an Fi/Fe one.

I mean, it was nice of this girl to listen to you vent, but then you turn around and get annoyed that she misunderstood your frustration as anger and call her "not tremendously secure." I mean...

Well, my immediate impression was that Tallulah had already decided she was tremendously insecure because of lots of other reasons, not because of this particular event, and so she was adding her opinion in order to frame this particular situation.

EDIT: In fact, I think humans ...just fucking humans...do this all of the time. We see things through our own context and expect the other person to JUST KNOW. What is that? That isn't an Fi vs. Fe thing. I don't even know that it's a T vs. F thing.

Word.

It's just what being human is. The line between what is just our opinion/perspective and what is universal perception reality is sometimes very muddy, and especially between different people. Some people are more aware of it, some less so, but we all assume some level of our experience to be universal for everyone. So maturity to me is more the flexibility to respond to challenges to our perspective with openness, while knowing when to stand firm. None of us are perfect at this.

 

[Salomé]

I do know there have been times when an Fi user has read me as being really angry when I wasn't internally feeling anger at all--frustration, yes, but not anger. I know when I'm feeling anger.
...
Now that I'm typing all this out, it might be that I mostly get irritated by people who aren't close to me trying to tell me how I feel.

I don't understand why you guys get so worked up about being "misread".
Why does it even matter if there is a disparity between what you feel and how you make others feel? Why does that make you irritated? It's irrational, when you think about it. Other people hold incorrect beliefs all the time - you don't get worked up about that. Why not just say, "Hey, guess what? You're wrong about that" and move on if you don't want to get into a discussion. (The very fact that you DO get worked up, when you could laugh it off or ignore it, should be revealing in itself.)

But if you want to understand then accept it as a valid piece of data. Accept that your actions have consequences, that despite what you might be feeling, your way of acting or way of speaking has made the other person feel something - and that that piece of data is every bit as important as what your feelings are telling you.

I'm not suggesting you do this, Tallulah, but Extraverted feelers have a way of imposing their emotions on others. They emo dump, and then they feel fine, it's "out there", "off their chests", etc, etc. I know people who express themselves in ways that SCREAM anger to me - all the while denying feeling angry at all. Actually, what they are doing is making ME feel their anger (which they are repressing). Maybe you don't accept that, but it's widely accepted in psychoanalytic circles (i.e. transference/counter-transference/projective identification).

Such people fail to comprehend the toxic effects of offloading their feelings onto others. I seldom express strong emotion in the presence of others and try to be as restrained as possible, not because I feel nothing - like the stereotypical INTP robot - but because I'm hyperaware of polluting other people with my own emotional state (of course I don't always succeed). But I don't seem to get that consideration from strong Fe types. I can get really stressed, even physically ill around them when they're emoting at me. I feel like I'm having to dissipate all this toxic energy and I don't know what to do with it. I know other Fi users who feel similarly. It's damned exhausting.

 

[PeaceBaby]

angry >>>>> annoyed

Anger is a spectrum emotion that expresses from one end, inner frustration to the other end, flat out screaming frothing rage.

Would it be more helpful if someone tried to pin down the exact emotion? The exact nuance?

Or if I said - "I might be wrong, but is something is bothering you?" ... would that be a way of asking that's less contentious? Because it's more generic?

 

[Fidelia]

Probably the last one is the safest. Although I'd even take someone trying to pinpoint it and describe it more precisely over someone saying I seemed "angry".

Oh and PB, what post were your questions in? I'm trying to catch up on a few pages I missed yesterday. Didn't mean to miss them.

 

[Totenkindly]

Anger is a spectrum emotion that expresses from one end, inner frustration to the other end, flat out screaming frothing rage.

Would it be more helpful if someone tried to pin down the exact emotion? The exact nuance?

Or if I said - "I might be wrong, but is something is bothering you?" ... would that be a way of asking that's less contentious? Because it's more generic?

I would consider it a T thing more than some conflict between F functions here, if I had to consider it anything. If T is being precise, it's trying to label/describe the emotion with nuance, so if someone misses big-time on the nuance it just tends to add to the frustration and leaves one feeling misunderstood in addition to be falsely labeled/accused.

T also tries to treat the emotion as an object rather than something intrinsic to the person, but the style of comment as "Are you angry?" starts to merge
the person with their emotion.

"Frustrated" is probably a safer word to use than "angry."

And saying things like, "I feel right now like you're <emotion>" or "I'm sensing frustration, is this right, and can you tell me what's wrong?" would probably be better approaches... anything that suggests you are just describing what you perceive/feel but that it might not be accurate and you want the other person to confirm or explain.

I'm also led back into considering language and how emotions/inflection gets used. In the US, inflection is often used to convey emotion; however, in a language like Cantonese, different inflections for the same phoenetics actually means different words, and variations in pitch and tone don't convey emotion at all, but meaning.

Likewise, in this discussion: Some people use emotion cues to convey information rather than as a direct expression of a feeling state. It's like emotions are being used as a language to express the weight of the idea rather than being used as a descriptor of internal emotional state. The guy who is pounding on the podium in order to emphasize points in his speech might sound like he's angry, but he might just consciously be using that as a way to emphasize his point because he believes it that strongly but doesn't necessarily feel that emotion internally at the time.

And I'm going to tie this back into some of the earlier comments about Fi -- I sometimes have found "passion" threatening because I perceived it as personally directed; but once I got the idea that the passion in the comments didn't mean "Shut up because I feel so strongly about things" or could result in some sort of unpredictable relational/physical violence, and that the sparring was okay even if it had emotional tones to it, it helped me to engage.