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  1. #241
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I know what the trends are too fidelia. Thanks for pointing that out. But this goes beyond that, you see?

    Please try to not dismiss it so quickly. I have been a part of parishes that reduced the number of lay readers and flattened out other ministry-specific areas without creating a schism in the whole parish, in this way.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  2. #242
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Someone said something to me about how Fi users feel very dishonest discussing negative feelings about group dynamics in private. It reminded me of a teacher from Quebec who taught at the first school I worked at. A few of them had come to this Alberta school all in one year. Several left, because they were frustrated with the differences in cultural communication. They felt that in Quebec, if you were upset with someone or disagreed with them, you let them know right away (even if you were in a group). Here, people would wait till they left the room and then discuss it. What seemed polite in Alberta was seen as passive-aggressive in Quebec. What seemed overly blunt and embarrassing people publicly to Albertans was seen as being open and honest and doing the person the respect of knowing your opinion and responding to it. Would you say that there is some parallel between Fe and Fi in that regard? He said that over time, he adjusted to it and no longer saw it as rude, but that he still had a tendancy to be much blunter than would be the norm here.
    It really depends on the specifics for me. Honestly, I don't find myself in situations like this a lot. I don't gravitate towards groups, and I've always worked in small offices where I was often alone or dealing one-on-one with someone. I'm admittedly even unaware of these things when they do go down - I manage to not be involved. I stay on the fringes a lot.

    I suppose, generally, if it's a group issue, then I'd prefer to handle it with the group, as everyone should get a chance to give input. I've seen in some groups where a group leader is approached privately about a group concern, and then the issue is addressed with the group if necessary.

    However, if it's between you and someone else, or just a few people, and not truly a group issue, then I'd prefer to handle it in private. I don't like embarrassing displays of emotion in front of a group or dragging people into it who do not need to be involved. Also, if there's any correction needed, I think people respond better if they don't feel humiliated publicly.

    From my personal view, wherever possible, I like to keep things private, but that may be because I am easily embarrassed.

    I think the point is, you can't set rules like this regarding Fi. As I've mentioned before, context can change how a value is manifested in the Fi-dom's judgment. I don't think you'll find a clear consensus among Fi-ers regarding how they prefer these things....it's just not, well, Fe .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #243
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to say about that. I know my mum saw the same thing happening in our church that I grew up in and a good man was being pushed out of the ministry by someone pretty shady and the board was mindlessly going along with it. She spoke out (she's an ENFJ). My dad also didn't agree, but said nothing, just resigned from the board (he's an ISTJ). In the end, we ended up having to leave the church and my mum's reputation as a "trouble-maker" (which she wasn't - she was very tactful) followed her to our new church.

    Was that a case of Fe pushing another Fe user out because they did not follow the main consensus?

  4. #244
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    OA, so what you're saying is that because each Fi user is individual, they will also choose to resolve matters in an individual way?

    I've also found it frustrating in the past when I have stepped on a Fi value inadvertently to have no clear route to go back and try to clean it up. If I bring it up to apologize or get information, I usually am received coldly. It almost seems like "least said, soonest mended". In an ideal world, that is most definitely not the case with Fe! You cannot just jump over the problem. It has to be addressed in some way before the relationship can move on. I may be misreading or missing something important, so if any of you have advice, I'm all ears.

  5. #245
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You know, you (generic you) want examples, but without real reflection, tell me "that's not Fe." I know that the way this was done felt wrong to me, and it was engineered to take place in a way that did not include everyone or care about everyone's feelings or hear everyone's voice. To me, tools of Fe were used to elicit compliance and complacency. Now granted, not everyone has my POV. But my POV is all I have.

    So that's what I'm offering. Take what you can from it.

    -----

    They felt that in Quebec, if you were upset with someone or disagreed with them, you let them know right away (even if you were in a group).
    It can lead to very animated discussions that appear even hostile on occasion. But, in those scenarios, it's kind of cool that the disharmony is not feared so much, it's almost a relief to clear the elephant in the room. I've only experienced this Quebecois dynamic in a isolated instances through my work. But I have no reference for the Albertan dynamic.

    Would you say that there is some parallel between Fe and Fi in that regard? He said that over time, he adjusted to it and no longer saw it as rude, but that he still had a tendancy to be much blunter than would be the norm here.
    I feel more comfortable, as I pointed out below, when I know I can say what I think even if it's not harmonious. BUT, sometimes the atmosphere of confrontation ensures that not everyone says their stuff either. I guess I can't say whether it's more Fe vs Fi ... disagreeing with someone is different than thinking they are doing something immoral.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 09-22-2010 at 12:05 PM. Reason: added answers to the quebec / albertan question here
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #246
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Thanks for the example, PeaceBaby! I think you're right that Fi can seem like nagging voices of dissention to Fe if Fe feels like it's the right thing for the group or if it feels like people's personal emotions are impeding what they see as progress. I'm not sure if Ted felt like he was making progress that would necessarily bring with it some growing pains, or if he was leaning entirely on Bob, afraid or unwilling to make his own choices. He also might be totally clueless about the people aspect of things, preferring instead to let others handle that so he can focus on giving sermons and the like.

    I do think this was also a case of Fe fail on the new minister's part, as well as out of control, megalomania-type Fe on Bob's part. It's almost always a recipe for disaster when a new minister comes in and starts changing things in a church, especially if they haven't hung back for a while to observe the social dynamics and to talk to the members about how things have worked in the past and what's important to them. They're almost always flying blind, and then they fall prey to the first person that befriends them (who often has an agenda).

    Bob sounds a bit like someone who is used to working people to get his way, which he probably believes is best for everyone because he's convinced himself of that fact so it won't seem selfish. I do think Fe can be very dangerous when used in this way--it becomes a case of knowing you can finesse people easily, so you rationalize that you're helping others get what they want. When really, you just want what you want. And then you try and convince others it really is what they want. I am very, very uncomfortable with that sort of Fe use. Fe really does need something to keep it in check.

    I found your description of picking up on the dissatisfaction of the congregation early on interesting...you are probably picking up on the seeds of discontent before a Fe user ever would, so bringing it up might seem to a Fe user like overreacting or being paranoid, maybe? Because we wouldn't see it until it manifested in a tangible way. I definitely see the potential for major frustration here. Hmm.
    Something Witty

  7. #247
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Peacebaby, I wasn't negating your example. I just am trying to better understand it, as I've often had the same feelings as you expressed and I'm not a Fi user. I agree that especially in those types of settings it's easy for the majority to rule and the minority to be silenced. Is that what Fe is? I can see how Bob used Ted's compliance and the influence of certain members to push his agenda without a doubt. As a Fe user though, I would call that manipulative too. Does Fe only conform to the setting it finds itself in, or does it conform to a set of universal rules? While Fe may be Bob's most natural expression, the presence of someone coming before to advise suggests to me that someone else is also aware of how the congregation can best be manipulated. (Which I guess would be using the "rules" of Fe to ensure an outcome). The fact that Bob's daughter was soon after implemented though does sound like he had an agenda as well...

    I guess my objection is that it seems to me sometimes that Fi users see Fe as always blindly following the majority, which I feel simply isn't the case. They are reluctant to create conflict, but if they've determined that they must for conscience' sake or because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks they do. It just seems to me sometimes like Fi users see themselves as always standing up for the side of truth and justice, while Fe users mindlessly going along with whatever the most forceful leader wants or what the norm is.

    Taking the example of Te, I think Te sometimes misses stuff that Ti considers in depth and has put a lot of thought into. If Te users have a working model already, they are unlikely to consider something new, but unsure, even if it could have the potential to be much better. That doesn't mean that they would never consider doing something that breaks that pattern, but it's true that they would be more inclined to go with what's been proven.

    I think maybe Fe is the same. They are less likely to consider a new way of going about handling people if they've found something that works for now. It's possible that Fi has a better way, but it's also possible that it won't be practical or that it may fail, so usually they go with what they know. They might occasionally seek out Fi perceptions, but it is true that they would be more inclined to habitually operate by the rules that have already been put in place. Does that seem analogous or no?

  8. #248
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Was that a case of Fe pushing another Fe user out because they did not follow the main consensus?
    Without more info, and an opportunity to sense the environment, it's very hard for me to speculate.

    I think Fe agendas can clash for sure! Then may the best man (or woman) win!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #249
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    OA, so what you're saying is that because each Fi user is individual, they will also choose to resolve matters in an individual way?
    Pretty much....it depends on what the individual Fi-dom has decided is important in the specific situation. There can be a hierarchy of values involved. As I mentioned before, sometimes something has to be compromised, because real life is not ideal. So in a situation, a Fi-dom may compromise external harmony or whatever in favor of what they feel is more important. That tends to be "last resort" as it can be confrontational.

    I've also found it frustrating in the past when I have stepped on a Fi value inadvertently to have no clear route to go back and try to clean it up. If I bring it up to apologize or get information, I usually am received coldly. It almost seems like "least said, soonest mended". In an ideal world, that is most definitely not the case with Fe! You cannot just jump over the problem. It has to be addressed in some way before the relationship can move on. I may be misreading or missing something important, so if any of you have advice, I'm all ears.
    I can imagine a few possibilities, just based on myself...

    -They're not ready to talk to you about it, because they haven't gotten over it emotionally. Until they resolve their emotions, they don't feel clear-headed enough to deal with the situation head-on. INFPs may prefer to withhold judgment until they feel the best decision can be made - sometimes this means taking in as much info as possible and considering all the possibilities; other times it means processing emotion so as not to act on it.
    If you prod them, then they may act on it. The cold shoulder can mean: "back off - I'm not ready to talk". This is where my emotions get me in trouble and Fi goes awry in the sense that its lost control or perspective of the emotions. You see this really with anyone - they may need some time to steam.

    In any case, the time delay involves getting perspective. Sometimes, when they're over it emotionally, they decide it's not such a big deal after all. I KNOW I can be hyper-sensitive emotionally; which means once I'm in a rational frame of mind again, I'm not so offended. FiNe says it's no biggie in the grand scheme of life; it tells the emotions who's boss. Which can lead to the next possibility....

    -They're avoiding confrontation. After evaluating everything, they've decided it's not worth the hassle and are cutting off your efforts to drag up what they see as a buried issue or just a non-issue. Don't beat the dead horse, basically. They may avoid you a bit until it seems you're sufficiently over it also. It might even be that they realize they overreacted and are embarrassed about it now. Or they didn't realize their reaction was outside of Fe protocol and feel bad they assumed you should have known. Admittedly, we may sometimes solve problems in our heads....

    So, I understand how you can feel invalidated when the Fi-dom decides it's not a big deal and wants to sweep it under the rug, and you still need some closure or whatever. This is probably even truer when it seems to be a re-occurring violation on your part, and you want to know how to avoid it again.

    I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for from them, and they probably don't either. I think it's best to be direct and state how you feel and what you want to know, because I know I don't pick up on hints, or I'll avoid them if they just seem like ploys to drag me into drama. If it is a genuine effort to understand my feelings, then I'm usually open to explaining the larger, underlying reason why something seemingly small registered as a value violation.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #250
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    "My Fi was very, very, very, hurt." That is not useful insight.
    It is nothing more than someone talking about their emotions and substituting Fi for the word, feelings.
    The Feeling function itself -regardless of attitude- is not to be confused with "feelings" or "emotions" as we commonly know them.
    That is why I made the comment earlier, that threads like these are pointless.
    The reason they're pointless is they're not really discussing Fi and Fe as function attitudes, at all.
    They're discussing hurt feelings.

    You have repeatedly expressed your dissatisfaction with how Fi is defined and discussed in this forum.
    If I were an Fi Dom, the last thing on earth I would want to see is someone saying their Fi was "hurt."
    It sounds like someone fell on their ass, rather than what Fi really is - a mental process used to evaluate worth.
    not to interrupt in something i was not involved in, but i just want to point out that while emotion =/= Feeling, emotion can be the barometer for Feeling, and for Fi types is inextricably tied up in it.

    because emotions are read by Feeling functions, they become a part of the schema of value for a person with dom or aux Fi. things that i highly value make me feel emotionally good. things that do not make me feel emotionally bad.

    so to say that my Fi was hurt, is very much the same as saying, "i am aware that i am dealing with something that goes against my value system". for us, it is a useful insight, and it's really the same thing, though i also understand that, worded as it is, it comes off whiny and self-absorbed.

    but then, we have Te, not Ti, which says that getting to the point efficiently is more important than how specifically we word it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm understanding that they feel that anything less would be sweeping something public under the carpet instead of being transparent about it. I also suspect that the act of airing those thoughts and emotions and sticking up for someone is more important to them than the resulting outcome. The purpose of starting that kind of thread maybe has nothing to do with what happens in the end?

    [...]

    I think I understand the reasoning that a Fi person may use initially. What I'm fuzzy on is what is the outcome that you would foresee in ideal Fi world when you operate in this way? That everyone had a chance to say their say? That the public is aware that an offense happened? That you feel better having expressed your sentiments and now your conscience is clear?

    If you have done this and it hasn't turned out well for you (in a workplace setting, etc), does that affect what you do the next time? How would you see a person in charge ideally responding to that kind of outpouring? How would you see co-workers ideally responding?
    well, i think in my mind, everyone messes up and has tensions with others and... it's not a big deal! when you talk about "losing face", i question why anyone should be so concerned about that. ideally, no one will hold social grudges, nor ostracize one another, nor be afraid of conflict - after all, it's not wonderful, but it's not always so terrible either.

    to always minimize conflict is to overlook actions which often derive from a hurt that someone is experiencing. when a child is mean, it is usually because they feel threatened. instead of ostracizing them from a group - understandable because they are disrupting the group, but - why not address why they are acting that way? yes, perhaps harsh words will be exchanged. but then everyone's intentions become clear. and at the very deepest level, most intentions are quite harmless. upon discussion, i understand that the other child hit me because he was feeling frustrated that i was saying things that hurt him and he did not know how to make me stop otherwise.

    and yes, some of it is moral obligation as well. to phrase it as one's "conscience being clear" makes it sound like a very childish dropping of baggage (not your intention, i'm sure). it is not about expressing sentiment so much as needing to fix something that is hurting people and always living in harmony with your internal standards. if i do not act in harmony with them, why have them at all? and this action cannot be postponed, because every moment of postponement is continuing to hurt others and is a moment during which you are living out of accordance with your values. thus Fi is not so concerned about what comes afterwards. that can be dealt with later. what is important is now.

    ideally, if everyone acted this way, we would all live in a harmony achieved through openness and respect of one another, rather than through covering up and group alignment. we can each be different yet in harmony because we appreciate and allow difference. sticking up for someone returns balance to a situation that is out of balance, even though that return entails conflict. it also does so in a way that involves everyone, rather than dealing with a single person; rarely is an issue the problem of a single person and rarely does dealing with a single person resolve an issue. it is not so much about making people aware of the offense - i imagine most already are - but about clarifying to everyone why it needs to be different.

    i have reacted this way in a public setting before - in a very Fe dominated setting, in fact - in a situation in which i felt like someone was offering herself for a position that was much too advanced and difficult for her, and which had high potential for isolating her when she was already experiencing social issues. having taken on that position myself and struggling enough with it - and being much older and much more experienced in the group - i voiced my concerns (the girl in question was out of the room during this, as policy dictates), and then left the room too, instead of voting her in, which was a very blatant sign of disapproval. afterwards, a Fe dom manager came out and talked to me individually, voicing that she, too, shared my concerns, but she believed it to be best for the group and saw few other options. i saw many other options, but she said none of them were acceptable given our current policies. afterwards, i was treated coldly by some group members but also was approached by some who were concerned for me and many who thanked me for voicing their own concerns. i did not understand, though did appreciate, those who were concerned about me, lol. in analysis, i probably was considered less a part of the in-group after that stunt; however, the girl in the position has had much support and help, and i believe that is in part thanks to me speaking up. i also believe it has helped younger group members see that sometimes it is not bad to speak up - you may find many others sharing the same unexpressed sentiment.

    to answer your questions, ideally the person in charge would respond to my concerns in a logical manner. if it is not a fair position, then i don't mind hearing why. perhaps there is something i have not thought of or accounted for. i don't mind my opinion being questioned or disproven, but i hate it being dismissed. it did affect how i spoke up later - i think after this incident i have made more of an effort to channel more logic and less emotion. heated emotion makes people take you less seriously, even though i'm really quite logical in the midst of such an outpouring. coworkers would ideally react in the same way - simply to address my opinions. i want to be heard, not my instructions followed. and ideally we can work through the problem to come to a Fe-Fi synergystic solution - one that is more than the sum of our parts. Fe seeks to streamline but may do so unevenly; Fi seeks to account for everyone but that requires much more time and energy. i believe that there can be real-life Fe-Fi solutions that help everyone by some people giving more in some areas and some giving more in others, as it suits them. streamlining evenly, but differently, from each person.

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