09-21-2010, 11:27 PM #231
09-21-2010, 11:30 PM #232
Someone said something to me about how Fi users feel very dishonest discussing negative feelings about group dynamics in private. It reminded me of a teacher from Quebec who taught at the first school I worked at. A few of them had come to this Alberta school all in one year. Several left, because they were frustrated with the differences in cultural communication. They felt that in Quebec, if you were upset with someone or disagreed with them, you let them know right away (even if you were in a group). Here, people would wait till they left the room and then discuss it. What seemed polite in Alberta was seen as passive-aggressive in Quebec. What seemed overly blunt and embarrassing people publicly to Albertans was seen as being open and honest and doing the person the respect of knowing your opinion and responding to it. Would you say that there is some parallel between Fe and Fi in that regard? He said that over time, he adjusted to it and no longer saw it as rude, but that he still had a tendancy to be much blunter than would be the norm here.
I've noticed on here that Fi users (ENFPs especially) tend to want to discuss problems in public without going to the offending person first. My first reaction to that is that it creates a massive mess to clean up, rarely ends up resolving anything and usually spawns several more issues. I'm focussed on the end result it has. I'm understanding that they feel that anything less would be sweeping something public under the carpet instead of being transparent about it. I also suspect that the act of airing those thoughts and emotions and sticking up for someone is more important to them than the resulting outcome. The purpose of starting that kind of thread maybe has nothing to do with what happens in the end?
From a Fe standpoint, it seems like just as much damage as the initial offense is incurred by not allowing the person a chance to respond or remedy the situation in anyway by making them aware of it. It is possible to me (maybe this is Ni-Fe?) that there may be many reasons they acted as they did and perhaps not all of them were spawned with bad motivation or in an attempt to hurt someone or squash them. To me it seems unfair that instead of talking to the person in a way that isn't going to cause them to lose face (or face untrue accusations, especially when you may not have all the information), it jumps right away to public berating and generalizations. While an issue may have happened publicly, it may even be that a person may not be able to defend themselves without revealing information that would expose the other person or hurt them by having everyone know.
I think I understand the reasoning that a Fi person may use initially. What I'm fuzzy on is what is the outcome that you would foresee in ideal Fi world when you operate in this way? That everyone had a chance to say their say? That the public is aware that an offense happened? That you feel better having expressed your sentiments and now your conscience is clear?
If you have done this and it hasn't turned out well for you (in a workplace setting, etc), does that affect what you do the next time? How would you see a person in charge ideally responding to that kind of outpouring? How would you see co-workers ideally responding?
09-21-2010, 11:34 PM #233"Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure
INFP | 4w5 sp/sx - 451| RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive
09-21-2010, 11:37 PM #234
09-21-2010, 11:39 PM #235
09-21-2010, 11:46 PM #236
For ZBuck (and all):
I've been giving this some thought, a (to me) significant example of Fe stifling Fi (perhaps I should be specific to Fi/Ne observing Fe/Ni). This is a big example, and personal, so please, no one quote this whole post.
For me, Fi is not about feelings per se, but feelings are what I get as signals that something isn't fitting right. So, although the function differs from emotion, emotions are the flashing alarm bells, so to speak.
And this is long. Apologies in advance.
STORY DELETED TO PROTECT THE "INNOCENT" - pm me for details if you want
To me, Ted is effectively Bob's pawn, and Bob, despite all the goodness in his heart, is NOT thinking about the whole group here. He has effectively engineered this whole terrible split of the congregation, one that I could feel in my heart was happening and was wrong, but couldn't fully pin down until the plan was close to completion, and when I did raise concerns all along the way, I was placated or ignored and we did stuff like "surveys" to appease the unhappy and ensure that majority rule would persist.
The congregation is now half the size. Might go bankrupt. Apparently they are even talking about whether they are going to be a Liturgical congregation anymore. I would have never imagined this possible 5 years ago. That church was a rock. We joined that congregation because it did seem so good in an interpersonal way.
I don't think Bob is a bad guy. I think he believes in his heart he is doing lots of the right things. We spoke recently, and I passionately shared all the concerns of my heart, and how people followed him and trusted him, but how could all these changes be right when they have alienated half of the people who used to come here! I don't think Ted is blameless, but I know he doesn't "see" people or "get" people like Bob does. Ted's so trusting, and doesn't think very far ahead. I think Bob is the inspiration or "mastermind" behind much of this.
And of course there are other players, but the story is tl;dr as it is!
I think Bob's personal vision of what's right for HIM has replaced the vision of what's right for ALL.
To me, this is how the group stifles the individual, Fe vs Fi. Unless Fi can stand up and righteously give a voice to and declare the problem, Fi-er's are just like little nagging voices of dissension to Fe. You can't imagine how hard I try to work within any system, using Fe tools, but I can't engineer a situation like the one above. I don't surround myself with people who can give majority consensus when needed; as an introvert too, my energies are more limited in these social environs.
When I have authority (like I'm the boss or in my work with charities) it's easier to keep track of where everyone is, but in these situations, when stuff is happening behind the scenes and I can only sense it but not verify it, very challenging.
Does that help at all?
Last edited by PeaceBaby; 09-22-2010 at 03:00 PM. Reason: story deleted as it was only here for a short time"Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
― Eleanor Roosevelt
"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad."
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
09-21-2010, 11:55 PM #237
- Join Date
- May 2009
- 6w7 sx
- SEE Fi
It's an unfair stereotype that detracts from the fact that someone with Fe can act victim-y or like a martyr, and someone with Fi can placate people.
There are definitely patterns of behavior, but apparently it really lies in the "why."
09-21-2010, 11:57 PM #238
- Join Date
- May 2009
- 6w7 sx
- SEE Fi
09-21-2010, 11:57 PM #239
There is actually pastors literature distributed and evangelical church coaches who have formulated ways to silence anyone who does not go on with the new direction of the church (especially in dealing with issues such as trad music vs contemporary, service format, making churches larger and more seeker friendly and turning it into more of a big business). These ways were simply being implemented in your church. I disagree with it and I believe it has been the ruin of many, many churches, but I don't believe this is a Fe issue. It is an issue of differing agendas about what direction the church ultimately goes in. I've been a part of two churches now that have been torn apart in the same way and have done a lot of research about it.
09-21-2010, 11:58 PM #240
Please don't let all my questions get buried! I have two posts now with questions that haven't been addressed and I think they are relevant to understanding Fi better.
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