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  1. #221
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh, yeah that's right (just looked up the functions for each type again). Whoops.

  2. #222
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    As you can see, Fe-Si and Fe-Ni are quite different, yet far too many people take the Fe-Si description and call it Fe, in general.
    It is easy to make that mistake, but in fairness, many of us have more experience with SFJs, so that's our frame of reference. These threads can help clarify the differences.

    Knowing all of that, I do think it can be quite pointless to have these Fe-Fi threads.
    I think if you ignore a few small quibbles here & there, a lot of useful insight can be gleaned from these threads. If anything, it does help to distinguish FeSi from FeNi. I think what's actually explored less is the difference between FiNe & FiSe.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #223
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Analogy:

    Ti users were likely the ones to catch the significant issue that led to the Challenger blowing up and killing people. They rang the bells loudly, they alerted their supervisors, they tried to pass information up the chain of command but NASA is a large corporation and precision was overlooked because it's a Te environment with different priorities.

    Fi users are similarly likely to be the ones to pay careful attention and catch the issues of significance in terms of values and integrity compromises. Fi users similarly ring the bells and similarly face the resistance of living in a Fe world that leaves precision overlooked because of different priorities.

    Now, what is frustrating to the Xi users is:
    not only are their important thoughts going unacknowledged and therefore needlessly exposing people to situations where they can get fvcked for lack of careful attention, but also that they've always been and feel like they always will be the people with greater concern for what's going on at all levels (meaning, details AND systemic outcomes), and no power to put it to use.

    Which doesn't mean that the Xe users don't care about what's going on--they absolutely do, and are working their darndest towards great outcomes and getting to their goals more productively. But the Xi users are paying exorbitant amounts of attention at all levels and by way of this careful attention are the ones more competent to be making the judgments. But of course the Xe users think are too outcome-focused to even notice that they're not noticing something important, characterizing the Xi users as Chicken Little worrywarts, unrealistic, moody, nerdy or whatever.

    So partly what the Xe users are seeing is the frustration that comes with being in a subordinate position of power when the person who's making the rules is actually less qualified to be wielding that power.


    Of course, at some point, pragmatism has to come into play. And that's why Te rules Western capitalism and Fe rules Western social interaction. But, and this is a significant but, there are cultures where Ti rules and Fi rules. Which means it's not Te and Fe's god-given place to be the standard. It means that one group's priorities are given more value than the other.

    This is why a lot of Fi people look simplistic and moody to Fe users. It's because in Western culture Fe is the fish in water, the standard, the de rigeur, the values granted as more important.

    But just as Fidelia mentioned, the education system could be vastly improved if the Te users let the Ti users overhaul the semi-functional system. And similarly, the integrity/values/social world could be vastly improved if Fe users let Fi users pick some of the rules and priorities and values. You know which ones are Ti and Fi--they're the cultures where things move more slowly, where getting through a checklist of tasks and accomplishing a boatload of goals are not as important. The cultures that grate you because they're not Te enough (schedule-oriented) or Fe enough (group harmony and outcome oriented). But we're Westerners and this is how Westerners value things, for better or worse.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #224
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think if you ignore a few small quibbles here & there, a lot of useful insight can be gleaned from these threads. If anything, it does help to distinguish FeSi from FeNi. I think what's actually explored less is the difference between FiNe & FiSe.
    Yeah, I think most if not all of the Fi-stuff being mentioned here are coming from the viewpoints of the NFPs
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  5. #225
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Okay- it must be said- at the idea of bringing up the difference between SFJ and NFJ: it’s a brilliant idea and someone should start that thread forthwith. Packing all the charm and illumination of a typical Fe/Fi thread into an N/S discussion. What could go wrong?



    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The whole thread has been overall informative and civil, with intelligent people trying to find common ground amongst ourselves.
    I agree. Apologies to Esoteric for taking it so far away from her op, but still- for an Fe/Fi thread- this has far more insightful exchanges than most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Analogy:

    Ti users were likely the ones to catch the significant issue that led to the Challenger blowing up and killing people. They rang the bells loudly, they alerted their supervisors, they tried to pass information up the chain of command but NASA is a large corporation and precision was overlooked because it's a Te environment with different priorities.

    Fi users are similarly likely to be the ones to pay careful attention and catch the issues of significance in terms of values and integrity compromises. Fi users similarly ring the bells and similarly face the resistance of living in a Fe world that leaves precision overlooked because of different priorities.
    I thought this whole post was good at bringing clarity, especially this part^.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  6. #226
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think if you ignore a few small quibbles here & there, a lot of useful insight can be gleaned from these threads.
    "My Fi was very, very, very, hurt." That is not useful insight.
    It is nothing more than someone talking about their emotions and substituting Fi for the word, feelings.
    The Feeling function itself -regardless of attitude- is not to be confused with "feelings" or "emotions" as we commonly know them.
    That is why I made the comment earlier, that threads like these are pointless.
    The reason they're pointless is they're not really discussing Fi and Fe as function attitudes, at all.
    They're discussing hurt feelings.

    You have repeatedly expressed your dissatisfaction with how Fi is defined and discussed in this forum.
    If I were an Fi Dom, the last thing on earth I would want to see is someone saying their Fi was "hurt."
    It sounds like someone fell on their ass, rather than what Fi really is - a mental process used to evaluate worth.

  7. #227
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    So, would you say it's more about being heard than about the action ultimately taken, then? This is what I'm trying to understand--I guess because Fe is kind of an action thing, and I'm trying to get the distinction of what Fi looks like, ideally, in a group setting, if it's as unfettered as an Fi user would like.
    I once claimed, and it's simplistic but perhaps begins to express the differing priorities, that there are people in this world requiring that we have good relationships before we can work together well, and there are people requiring that we work together well before we can have a good relationship. The claim is an attempt to encapsulate Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi approaches to group harmony.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #228
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    "My Fi was very, very, very, hurt." That is not useful insight.
    It is nothing more than someone talking about their emotions and substituting Fi for the word, feelings.
    The Feeling function itself -regardless of attitude- is not to be confused with "feelings" or "emotions" as we commonly know them.
    That is why I made the comment earlier, that threads like these are pointless.
    The reason they're pointless is they're not really discussing Fi and Fe as function attitudes, at all.
    They're discussing hurt feelings.

    You have repeatedly expressed your dissatisfaction with how Fi is defined and discussed in this forum.
    If I were an Fi Dom, the last thing on earth I would want to see is someone saying their Fi was "hurt."
    It sounds like someone fell on their ass, rather than what it really is - a mental process used to evaluate worth.


    I didn't say anything about my "Fi being hurt", nor was that the point of my posts or many other people's posts. Anything along those lines doesn't cancel out the useful posts.

    The discussions in these threads revolve around how differences in the function attitudes can lead to misunderstandings & hurt emotional feelings. These situations of misunderstandings are examples to clarify some of the differences in the Fe & Fi thought processes. Obviously, it's not always Fe & Fi differences that lead to these misunderstandings, which many have brought out.

    Maybe these threads are pointless to you, but other people have found something valuable in them.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #229
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    I didn't say anything about my "Fi being hurt", nor was that the point of my posts or many other people's posts.
    No one ever said it was your comment.
    The comment is all the way back at the beginning of the thread, made by EW.

  10. #230
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    No one ever said it was your comment.
    The comment is all the way back at the beginning of the thread, made by EW.
    Well, I don't need every comment in a thread to be true to consider it successful in some ways. Focusing on them misses the points which are valid.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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