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  1. #211
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    A couple of points
    - Having a personal/individual opinion on something doesn't necessarily mean that the opinion is different from the consensus. It just means that that opinion/view/value is reached based on the person's own internal processing, not something that is based on the social norm.
    - Even if an individual opinion is different from the norm, we're not talking about 1000 people with 1000 totally differing goals. There will be groups of individuals with a similar, albeit minority view of things. Finding a consensus is not an impossible task (unless you're talking about Middle East Peace, sadly)
    - In the worst case scenario where a person has some weird opinion that is totally unique and different from the norm, many times that opinion won't affect or be affected by the majority opinion. I think a couple of Fi-users have already mentioned it, but it's not a black-and-white thing that the individual opinion must always be put to the forefront. We are capable of doing things for the greater good.
    So, would you say it's more about being heard than about the action ultimately taken, then? This is what I'm trying to understand--I guess because Fe is kind of an action thing, and I'm trying to get the distinction of what Fi looks like, ideally, in a group setting, if it's as unfettered as an Fi user would like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    There is an implicit assumption in your question that consensus is a good thing, or even a possible thing. And you seem to be redefining the term to include the notion of compromise, when it is (ostensibly) about recognising the contribution and opinion of every individual within a group (including dissenters) - such that everyone IS happy and validated (or gives the appearance of it).

    How often is consensus actually required? How often can it be said to be truly unanimous and how often is it achieved through coercion or other manipulation? And if the latter, what value does it have over more arbitrary methods - other than the (deceptive) appearance of group validation? The entire concept is pure Fe (apparently it derives from the Latin term for "feel together"). So, in effect, you are asking Fi to validate a Fe value.
    I understand that I'm coming from an Fe assumption--I just have to start there because it's what I know, and hopefully someone can explain to me the difference.

    Well, I guess a consensus is required any time a group comes into being, such as starting a forum like this one or starting a school or a club or anything that has members. Voices can be heard, but at a certain point, decisions must be made, or we'd be here into eternity, discussing the same issue and never getting anywhere. I guess what I need, or what I would like to know, for my own understanding, is what a Fi user feels takes the place of a consensus and would be more affirming, but still be effective. At a certain point, people kind of have to decide and move on, don't they? Someone will always not get their way, even if everyone's been heard.
    Something Witty

  2. #212
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Am I on the right track?
    I think it's a good synopsis of what I was getting at also, which is sort of based on my understanding of Jungian functions and my own observations/experience.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #213
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I understand that I'm coming from an Fe assumption--I just have to start there because it's what I know, and hopefully someone can explain to me the difference.

    Well, I guess a consensus is required any time a group comes into being, such as starting a forum like this one or starting a school or a club or anything that has members. Voices can be heard, but at a certain point, decisions must be made, or we'd be here into eternity, discussing the same issue and never getting anywhere. I guess what I need, or what I would like to know, for my own understanding, is what a Fi user feels takes the place of a consensus and would be more affirming, but still be effective. At a certain point, people kind of have to decide and move on, don't they? Someone will always not get their way, even if everyone's been heard.
    Most groups are not governed by consensus though, are they?
    Schools have Principals, Clubs have Chairpersons, forums have moderators. This forum certainly doesn't require consensus to make decisions.

    As OA mentioned before, Fi isn't always in opposition to the majority - you just rarely get to see its expression unless it is. Much like Ti - we don't do validation, we won't even usually comment unless we disagree with something or we are pointing out a logical inconsistency. Most Fi users aren't going to stick their heels in unless a principle has been violated - in which case you are never going to get a consensus, but you may end up with one less member.
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  4. #214
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    If we keep it strictly on a Fe vs Fi level however, the discussion is bound to get lost on someone's hangups about their ESFJ mother.. and possibly project that kind of Fe on to an ENFJ. Personally, I happen to see a lot of good about ESFJ moms, but I know they're nothing like ENFJs either. So why discuss it here?
    Your thoughts are exactly my own on the matter. People relentlessly apply Fe-Si to all of Fe.
    Fe-Ni is not like Fe-Si in combination. There is someone in another thread asking if he is ENFJ or ESFJ and I posted this:

    ESFJs are more concerned with tradition, politeness, and emotional currency. ESFJs have trouble thinking outside the box. ESFJs are more prone to being religious. ESFJs are traditionalists. ESFJs can be very pragmatic and unwilling to change, and even hostile to changing the rules or established expectations. "I want to help you. Let me see if I can find something in the rules to let me help you."

    ENFJs are more concerned with the future, possibilities, and how best to make someone happy. ENFJs have trouble thinking inside the box. ENFJs are more prone to being spiritual. ENFJs are visionaries. ENFJs can be very unconventional and idealistic, and even hostile to people being unwilling to change the rules to make things right. "Who cares how you're supposed to do it, this guy needs help."
    As you can see, Fe-Si and Fe-Ni are quite different, yet far too many people take the Fe-Si description and call it Fe, in general.
    (I happen to think a few INFJs in this forum are probably ISFJs in reality, but I digress . . . )

    Knowing all of that, I do think it can be quite pointless to have these Fe-Fi threads.
    Not to mention, the OP showed me her hand with the words: "let the antics ensue" in her title.
    To then feign surprise or make it appear as if she made an innocent observation that these types of threads "upset people," is annoying.
    The underlying motivation of this thread is palpable.

  5. #215
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    As OA mentioned before, Fi isn't always in opposition to the majority - you just rarely get to see its expression unless it is. Much like Ti - we don't do validation, we won't even usually comment unless we disagree with something or we are pointing out a logical inconsistency.
    @bold, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Your thoughts are exactly my own on the matter. People relentlessly apply Fe-Si to all of Fe.
    I agree with that.

    (I happen to think a few INFJs in this forum are probably ISFJs in reality, but I digress . . . )
    And likely there many others who are mistyped all over this forum. However, I don't think that makes any discussions pointless; one has to analyze the data further, and try to seek out consistencies. Plus, the more people that decide to participate, the better and clearer those consistencies will seem.

    Not to mention, the OP showed me her hand with the words: "let the antics ensue" in her title.
    To then feign surprise or make it appear as if she made an innocent observation that these types of threads "upset people," is annoying.
    The underlying motivation of this thread is palpable.
    This I disagree with. Anticipating some conflict with a "tongue in cheek" comment from the get-go is hardly tantamount to feigning surprise when a small amount flares. You're inferring and assigning a motivation that has no grounds. The whole thread has been overall informative and civil, with intelligent people trying to find common ground amongst ourselves.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  6. #216
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I also agree with what Jag and KDude have said about Fe-Ti being much different than Fe-Si.

    I wonder if it would be possible/desired to narrow this discussion down to Fi/Te and Fe/Ti since that encompasses the people interacting here. I really think that bringing in people's ESFJ/ISFJ family members muddies the waters and then a bunch of time is wasted reiterating that Fe is not necessarily about keeping the rules.

    It might be interesting to have a similar thread exploring Fe-Si vs Fi-Se...

  7. #217
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Most groups are not governed by consensus though, are they?
    Schools have Principals, Clubs have Chairpersons, forums have moderators. This forum certainly doesn't require consensus to make decisions.

    As OA mentioned before, Fi isn't always in opposition to the majority - you just rarely get to see its expression unless it is. Much like Ti - we don't do validation, we won't even usually comment unless we disagree with something or we are pointing out a logical inconsistency. Most Fi users aren't going to stick their heels in unless a principle has been violated - in which case you are never going to get a consensus, but you may end up with one less member.

    I especially liked the bolded comment here. That helps make more sense to me. It's always seemed to me like Fi never is happy. I guess it's that it only shows itself (in group issues that we're talking about) when there's a problem, not when things are going swimmingly. Is that accurate?

    So if consensus is not a goal for you guys, would you say that it's a matter of allowing everyone to be understood before the head person/people make the final decision? I actually don't like the consensus process a lot either. I think it's useful to gather information to be as informed as possible and see things from many points of view beforehand, and then look to find the right decision. Obviously for practical reasons it's good if that also ruffles the fewest feathers possible, although I wouldn't always say that's even a measure of what the right thing to do is at all times. I'm not sure where that leaves me. I know I dislike committees and group work intensely. I'd like to either be a peon or the leader, but not have everyone have completely equal levels of decision-making clout. Don't know where all that fits in with Fe and Fi. It is probably true that part of the reason I feel that way is that I want a good product in the end and do not want to associate my name with something I feel has been poorly done.

  8. #218
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I also agree with what Jag and KDude have said about Fe-Ti being much different than Fe-Si.

    I wonder if it would be possible/desired to narrow this discussion down to Fi/Te and Fe/Ti since that encompasses the people interacting here. I really think that bringing in people's ESFJ/ISFJ family members muddies the waters and then a bunch of time is wasted reiterating that Fe is not necessarily about keeping the rules.

    It might be interesting to have a similar thread exploring Fe-Si vs Fi-Se...
    My comments were about Fe-Ni being different from Fe-Si, not Fe-Ti.
    There's no need to change or narrow the thread's scope. I'm not staying in the thread. I just wanted to respond to KDude's comments.

  9. #219
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    How do you think Ni affects Fe? I always thought of it being a Fe-Ti thing.

  10. #220
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    How do you think Ni affects Fe? I always thought of it being a Fe-Ti thing.
    SFJ's have FeTi as well, though, so I've always tended to see the NiFe vs. SiFe to be what should be focused on -- at least in terms of how Fe is embodied by NFJ's vs. SFJ's. There are noticeable differences.

    Also agree that many Fe 'behaviors' and stereotypes are in actuality Fe in conjunction with Si, if not Si itself.

    But, if we're gonna compare Fi vs. Fe, I suppose that's where it could be more useful to utilize FeTi vs. FiTe. That seems to be the two camps in most of these sorts of threads anyway.
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