[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[PeaceBaby]

When I go to bed thinking about the conversation and wake up early still thinking about it, I've been online too much. I have such a strong desire to be understood that it appears to overpower my desire to understand in this thread.

I do want to say that what's been shared about Fe is appreciated. My appreciation usually comes in the form of statements, like this one. What I'm getting back from Fe users is that if I don't ask questions, Fe may feel I haven't been appreciating or paying attention either. If that's right, I will try to ask more questions (as they are relevant to the conversation.) So if Fe asks a lot of questions, Fe is trying to pin down the specific answers of what to do in situation X or situation Y. It doesn't necessarily mean they haven't heard what's been said.

From this thread, I think I understand better about Fe warning signs in writing, although honestly they don't stand out to me. I can see an Fi tripwire a mile off. Not so much an Fe one. IRL I am private anyway, so that helps prevent tripping over them, since I can't trip over one if I keep my thoughts to myself. And I get all the other signals too to warn me ... using the "spidey sense" as an early warning system!

Until I was hit on the head with the whole "Active Listening" stuff, I didn't know I was walking in the minefield. Maybe someone then could help me? By saying it plain like Tallulah? Without attaching a value judgement to it? Value statements hurt my feelings because my intentions are in earnest, and it's painful to be misconstrued. (In the span of a few posts, I was told I was being dismissive, pretentious, condescending and patronizing, to name a few.) It's an attack on my character, which is essentially an attack on Fi, and Fi is what we're talking about. I don't feel safe when one assigns a negative intention to me from out of the blue. I can't stay as objective, I run through all the posts, looking for the wrong words I said. I feel like running away. I feel under attack. I feel afraid.

Fe is, after all, what we culturally see and interact with every day. Sometimes here on the forum, I want to "let my hair down" and just express a question in a natural way for me. But it's naive of me to think that interacting on the forum is different than the real world. In the real world, I protect my innermost thoughts and feelings; I don't open this part of me to just anyone. This is a place most Fi users keep locked up and secret.

So when I offer to "take someone's hand", it's just an invitation to get to know me better, which means I will show that person more and more of my Fi, and when they start to understand my Fi more and more, they will better identify more and more Fi patterns IRL, and recognize them when encountered. No one Fi user will be exactly like me, but there will be enough similarity to say "aha!" And it won't seem so mysterious anymore.

I'm simply offering to take someone into my world. My world is made of Fi values. See how they are intertwined?

-----

My Fe takeaways:

1.) Tilty's post up there was refreshing and clear. That is the kind of honesty I am looking for. That's real to me.

When I hear tilty say the same Fe trust rules apply to everyone, and that it seems crazy to just start from a default position of trust, that anyone has to work or earn their way into the inner circle, that's helpful to know. It's not necessarily personal to feel mistrusted.

2.) That when Fe users jump in to share opinions all in a big pile, it's to verify what each other is seeing. Poster A: "Those pants are blue". Poster B: "Yes, they are"! Poster C: "Oh yes, that seems right to me." This does have the effect of feeling ganged up on, but, I can appreciate that's not necessarily the intent. One can more effectively validate what is agreed upon. It helps when other Fe users see what they think they see too.

3.) I will reflect on the "Fe Rules to smooth things over":

1) Identify the place where things took a turn for the worse.
2) Back up and re-evaluate either phrasing or WHAT was said. That's not to say that you aren't entitled to certain feelings, but sometimes forcing someone to accept something that they find offensive and then telling them they're wrong if they don't like it just won't go over well.
3) Address the objections offered as authentically as you can while still remaining true to yourself.
4) Move on, taking the red flags given as an indication to take a different route where there are less landmines. Do not try to offer the same thing again in the same manner if it has already been rejected.

I have to be honest: It is a little ironic when most Fe users responded negatively to Wonka's thread about how to treat "Upset ENFP's". If Fe users are loathe to give Fi users what they need, do Fe users have the right to ask for anything back?

But I will try. But please, I have trouble knowing where #1 is located sometimes. So if I ask, will someone just say it plainly?

4.) I know it probably breaks all the collective Fe hearts to hear that Fi users walk gingerly around Fe users, as though on broken glass or eggshells, but it's true. Most of us are so concerned with offending Fe users that we try nearly anything to prevent conflict or misunderstandings. No one wants to get shut out or door-slammed.

If we try to Fe-speak, it falls off somewhere because Fe is not our first language. If we Fi-speak, we get value judgements applied over top of our expressed emotions.

I list this as a take-away because I have no answer. If anyone does, they'll be the super-genius of the world. I'll try to reflect on it too.

5.) Fe users generally feel emotions are not to be trusted or relied upon in the moment. Correct me on that if I've got it wrong.

-----

That's the best I can do to sum up the last day or so. Any other thoughts are welcomed. If another person can summarize like Tallulah too in any other areas it would be most helpful.

 

[MacGuffin]

*brofists the splendid contrary image because no one else will and the south bound train roars thunderously past the north-bound, itself likewise speeding all a-clatter down the dim tunnels of the dark night*

This thread isn't an attack, not even close.

 

[Kalach]

This thread isn't an attack, not even close.

No, I understand. I was just wondering if the very, very similar dynamic was apparent to others, and instructive: the Fi's digging for the real feeling hidden underneath and the response that digging provokes, and the Ti's digging for the truer understanding hidden underneath, and the responses that digging provokes.

Dunno about the details, just seeing the images.

 

[Totenkindly]

I was just wondering if the very, very similar dynamic was apparent to others, and instructive: the Fi's digging for the real feeling hidden underneath and the response that digging provokes, and the Ti's digging for the truer understanding hidden underneath, and the responses that digging provokes.

Extremely so, which is why I dragged the Ti/Te comparison in yesterday (?).

There's some overlap here with Ti/Fi. Morgan used the term "bullshit detector," I think, a ways back... and both Ji functions operate as such... they just generally focus on different things. But it's possible for Ti to be bent away from the impersonal to the personal to some degree, and dig, dig, dig -- both functions are looking for underlying congruence/coherence. "Motivation" for Fi (which is equitable in some ways to an active form of "identity") correlates to Ti's sense of "Definition."

 

[Fidelia]

Wow, lots to read! I think we're getting somewhere useful though. There's a bunch that I still need to go back through. The one thing that stands out to me is that what each of us thinks is being very obvious, isn't and also that how we feel validation of our words is different. I was interested to realize that what you would like to be validated for is the emotional effort put forth, rather than just WHAT you said. To me, I would naturally want response to what I said and not care as much if something valued that I said it. I was also surprised to realize that by pointing out something objectionable in the words said, it is felt as an indication of how we feel about you. I think there is something a little more detached and impersonal about Fe in that sense.

PB what you did up there is one way that I think you can make a Fe user feel listened to. Summarize what you are taking away from it and ask more questions! (Which is exactly what was frustrating you about us). To us, that feel like being listened to.

In return, would you say that thanking the person for putting themselves out there and then not bombarding with more questions is what works best for you? What form of listening actively would allow us to carry on the conversation without making you feel grilled? (Aw crap, I'm doing it again!)

I guess I need a little time to just read through the last stuff again and absorb some of it.

 

[Fidelia]

Argh. Just lost a big long post in reply to skylights. I'll attempt to summarize it later.

PB, to me, what you did up there is what feels like active listening from a Fe standpoint. You have summarized some of what you are taking away and you have pointed out the things that seem less clear. I guess that's why I took offense at you asking why I was afraid to use active listening. I felt that I had just spent hundreds of posts doing that! Because my method of communication is what I place the higher value on, I also felt like that statement was invalidating me as a person.

As far as recognizing warning signs, I have a hard time the other way around, even though other Fi users could see it coming for miles. For Fe, in most cases if you hear someone pointing out a particular statement and saying "That sounds (insert negative descriptive adjective here)", it is not a personal statement about you. Instead, they are saying, "I think this is where you are going off the rails. I can't believe that you are actually (insert negative adjective here). Back up so that we can clarify this, I can ask questions to better understand where you are coming from, we can change the statement slightly to be more accurate for both parties or if you don't see why it sounds offensive to me, I'll give you the information you are missing.

I believe this is sometimes why Fe users seem to just keep harping on the same thing over and over during an argument. They want you to back up and acknowledge the thing they are pointing out. When you go on to talk about your intentions, or validation or anything else, they get frustrated and yell louder and get blunter and drop the niceties (because they think you are not getting the message they are conveying), which feels hurtful to a Fi user. Of course this is easier to analyze in retrospect than it is in real time.

When the "teacher voice" that skylights talks about gets used, it feel patronizing to us (what we see as the "real" issue still is being ignored and we assume that you either don't understand the problem or that you are not taking responsibility). What I didn't understand is that when that voice comes out, it is an indication of feeling overwhelmed and ganged up on and needing some time to sort thoughts out and refuel, as well as an affirmation of faith in each other's intentions.

I also didn't understand that the need for personal affirmation and validation made so much difference. I find those kind of affirmations surprising and extraneous for myself, because I want to deal with what was said - with the idea. To me, it isn't anything personal and reaffirming me as a person, but not dealing with my words feels like you are just searching hard for something nice to say or like evading the issue at hand. The METHOD of conveying the idea is the part that forms my opinion of someone personally, more than their motive in doing so or in how much effort it took for them to put it out there. Therefore, it never occurred to me that I was invalidating you personally, because I was trying hard not to invalidate what you were saying and in fact showing affirmation by asking questions to better understand it. On the other hand, you had put yourself out there and it seemed like I was glibly skipping over that and minimizing the amount of emotional energy and effort it required to give words to it. Not only that but I was nitpicking about wording of something small and just honing in on it rather than the spirit of the message and the other sentiments expressed.

Skylight's example was helpful to me in terms of better understanding what is needed instead.

Lots more to process. Will come back in a bit...

 

[Fidelia]

One other thought - it is only when you go to live in another culture that you even notice certain aspects of your own culture that you liked or disliked. When you live in a culturally similar people group, your every day outlook becomes so ingrained that you don't even notice what you are seeing anymore.

Particularly this last couple pages of posts has been great to me. This makes the difference for me in seeing where some of those different starting points are and why behaviour that seems to have an unquestionably easy to interpret meaning could result in two completely different conclusions about it. Thanks so much for persisting through 350 odd posts to reach that point. There's still lots more to figure out, but I am thankful to you all for taking the time and investing the emotional energy to try to put it into words that I could understand.

 

[Seymour]

So, two quick points long winded dissertations on vaguely related ideas. First:

I also didn't understand that the need for personal affirmation and validation made so much difference. I find those kind of affirmations surprising and extraneous for myself, because I want to deal with what was said - with the idea. To me, it isn't anything personal and reaffirming me as a person, but not dealing with my words feels like you are just searching hard for something nice to say or like evading the issue at hand. The METHOD of conveying the idea is the part that forms my opinion of someone personally, more than their motive in doing so or in how much effort it took for them to put it out there. Therefore, it never occurred to me that I was invalidating you personally, because I was trying hard not to invalidate what you were saying and in fact showing affirmation by asking questions to better understand it. On the other hand, you had put yourself out there and it seemed like I was glibly skipping over that and minimizing the amount of emotional energy and effort it required to give words to it. Not only that but I was nitpicking about wording of something small and just honing in on it rather than the spirit of the message and the other sentiments expressed.

I don't mind the questions being asked (that's a positive thing) or even inconsistencies being clarified. Just keep in mind that to Fi-doms (well maybe NFPs) it feels like it's ourselves being questioned and ourselves being called out for inconsistencies.

It's very difficult for an NFP to not take things personally. It's irrational and it's irritating (to both us and you), but there it is. We learn how to hide our knee jerk reaction of feeling hurt, and later, if we're lucky, we learn to detach more so that there is less hurt. Still, we have that instinctive response. If you keep that in mind, it becomes a little easier to understand why re-emphasizing your intent and the context of the questions makes them much easier to absorb.

This is from Nature By Nurture about INFPs and it's so overblown as to be a caricature (especially when describing an adult INFP) but it still has some value in describing what we are up against internally (it's likely some of this applies to Fi side of ENFPs, too):

[As preschoolers] they take everything personally and have almost no ability to remain objective in the face of criticism. [...] Ask a number of adult INFPs if they enjoy taking everything personally and not being able to easily shake off the feelings of a hurtful exchange with someone. [...] For INFPs, objectivity is a learned skill, learned over a lifetime [...] Though experience, INFPs begin to see and believe that someone can be at once angry at their behavior but still deeply supportive and accepting of them.

So, clearly PeaceBaby is an adult and has learned how to manage all that. I feel like I have done so to a reasonable degree, but I still have that same internal reaction to criticism. If someone is saying something that IS actually critical, or that sounds questioning of my core values or self, then reassurance about motive and baseline acceptance makes a huge difference. That leaves more attention available to absorb what the other person is saying because less is turned inward managing my own hyper-sensitivity.

Now, I say all that not because all NFPs are cry babies or that we don't learn how to be tough when needed... just that when we reveal the more personal aspects of our internal state it becomes that much harder to detach from the reactions we get. We don't demand the reassurance in all our interactions (we are quite aware the world doesn't cater to us), but it sure makes risky personal interactions easier if people are willing to do so.


Secondly (you never thought I'd get around to point 2, did you?), perhaps try to imagine what it would be like if you were without Fe social awareness in any way. You are not aware of group memberships, group dynamics or social expectations at all. All you know emotionally is what you, yourself experience and that you know intensely. Now, suppose you manage to interact with someone who, despite your bumbling efforts, seems like a good sort and with whom you feel some emotional resonance. Just about all you can do to find out if you are correct is spill some fraction of your internal emotional state outward and ask "is this how it is for you, too?" You hope against hope the other person will say "Yes, very much so!" And then you can get down to finding all the areas of similarities and differences. Without that initial "Yes, I get you and there is commonality" you have no idea if there was any. The other person might see what you just revealed as unbelievably alien and so their questions might just be a means of ignoring all the unpleasant stuff and looking for distraction in some minor point.

Again, that's a huge caricature... none of us are that unaware, but we do sometimes have the quality of a foreign visitor who barely speaks your language. Since we aren't aware of all the rules, sometimes we are going to misstep. So if you don't count good intent, then we are doomed and it's just a matter of time before we cross some line we didn't know existed and are judged.


So, it's all imperfect analogies and caricatures... but does that help at all? Other NFPs agree/disagree/roll their eyes?

Anyway, I'll stop posting for a bit and let others speak.

 

[Tallulah]

I'm left wondering why no one could express it like this, rather than telling me I was being condescending and patronizing.

A post full of questions feels like no one is listening to be honest, and that was already said wasn't heard. The questions themselves sometimes seem to suggest it, especially when they seem unrelated to what was said.

Yeah, I think fidelia did at first, but it got lost in the shuffle because she was also responding to the tone, which made you feel like she was judging you
and not just your words/approach. This is something I will have to remember about Fi--what it sounds like from you and skylights is that when we talk about actions/approach that hit us the wrong way, a Fi user might hear it as a rejection of them personally, a negation of what they've contributed.

Probably because Tallulah was a third-party observer, rather than someone actually involved in the exchange(s).

It's a lot easier for someone outside the discussion to get the "lay of the land" and comment generally on it (like a spectator describing what has just happened at a sports game) rather than members of the team actually out on the field lost in the nitty-gritty of the second-by-second play.

Very true. It's pretty easy for Fe/Ti to zone in as a third party, because it's like we can observe the dynamic almost like a system, and identify the breakdown. And that's what we trust as Fe users, and why we ask others for their opinions, so we can make sure we're getting an accurate read, and not just reacting emotionally. For Fe users, as others have said, most of us have realized that if we personally act in the moment based on the emotional intel we have, we will usually have missed some piece of the puzzle, causing hurt feelings and tension and fallout we'll have to deal with later. So we call on a third party to tell us if we're reading the situation correctly, if we're personally involved.

PB, as an Fe user, I could tell that Jennifer and fidelia were just trying to be honest about how they felt about your tone ONLY in the interest of this Fe/Fi discussion. But as I was reading, I was also thinking, "Dang, this is going to sound really harsh when she reads this."

I guess maybe because I was raised by a strong Fe user, I always understood that I could get in trouble for my actions, but it didn't change the fact that I was valued and loved as a person and family member. My actions, though I'm responsible for them, don't add value or remove value from me as a human.

Hot damn, you just described a few of my interactions in the past. If there's one thing that will strip away the Type 9, laid back, inferior Fe user I am... it's that. Even then, I still hold back a lot. They get hit with a single A-bomb of anger and react with horror, not knowing I have plenty more racked and loaded.

Yeah, you and I have talked about this before--we really hold back, knowing that anything we say in the heat of the moment could do damage in the relationship that would be difficult to repair. But I do think that once someone has repeatedly ignored our insistence that we aren't lying or suppressing or whatever, some of those barriers are removed. Because obviously they are not getting the message, and they need to back the heck up and understand we are serious. And they're not showing a lot of respect for us.

I do think INTPs can get personally attached to their ideas, esp. if they think they've worked out all the possibilities.

That's true--but if you find fault with my ideas, or I yours, it's rarely going to lead me to a judgment about your worth as a person. Unless I find out you're a child molester/murderer/animal abuser, Coldplay fan, etc.

Well, even what I was talking about above is more on the order of "I will always give you the benefit of a doubt" (as OA phrased it). To expand on that, it's more like "I will interpret your actions knowing your intentions are good. If they seem not to be, I will ask before judging." It's not carte blanche to be a selfish jerk.

I can be on board with that.

So again, here's the "I'd come across as meaner without filters" and a kind of implication of "you wouldn't be able to handle my emotions if I expressed them all." Those statements may well be true, but that represents a very different assumption than the one I tend toward. The "knowing that we would never attack them personally" is part of the "benefit of a doubt" dynamic I was referring to above, and it's not something I would offer to anyone but a good friend. What's the nature of the things you hold back that would come of as mean? Is it just a phrasing/language issue?

I think we saw it earlier in the thread when Jennifer and fidelia took a chance on trying what they thought PB wanted, which was gloves-off honesty. But Fe honesty will tell you (taking for granted that you know that it doesn't mean you're a bad person) exactly how you're coming off and how it's affecting other people. And if we're being honest, we're being honest, and we're not going to preface it with, "You know you're a wonderful person and I value your contributions, and in no way do I feel like you're Hitler right now." We assume if we're at a point in the relationship where we're being open and honest, then you understand we still like you. Fe would feel kind of fakey, ironically, at that point, if we let our frustrations with you out by blowing smoke up your butt first.

There are other points, though, where we're not close with the Fi user, and the Fi user keeps ignoring the warning signs and pushing or assigning the wrong motivations to us or telling us we're suppressing anger or something, like I described above, and the gloves will also come off then. And it, again, will be MUCH more blunt than the Fi user will want to hear. We will not be especially interested in their intentions, because they ignored our warning for them to back off and take us at our word. It will sound like a smackdown, because it is.

And, just to be 100% honest, I don't share everything that pops into my head even with my very closest friends. There are some things (especially negative valuations of others) that would do far more damage than good were they expressed. Is perhaps part of the issue that most Fi judgments are turned inward, and when expressed aren't directly about others? Even in the cases where they are about others, I may choose to share the emotional content without sharing the valuation of the other person. I can express my irritation with my partner without saying "I think you are being idiotic when you do such-and-so.. you should know better by now."

That could be it--y'all tend to do the therapist-recommended thing of owning your feelings rather than talking about what the other person's doing, unless you get really frustrated. Most Fe-Ti folks wouldn't make it personal, though. I don't assign judgments to a person's behavior, like calling their actions idiotic. But I might point out to them how their actions inconvenienced me or pissed me off or screwed something up.

Lots of good stuff here. And I think you are right... to an Fi-dom, being able to discard the social niceties and cut to the chase feels like a truer, better way to be. It feels like a relief to encounter the real other person and deal with what's actually going on with them. It feels less filtered and more authentic.

I'm not saying it is actually inherently better, but it's hard for it not to feel that way when it's one preferred mode of operation. And again, I don't want that kind of interaction with everyone... only those I like and/or respect. In fact, if I dislike you and still go that route, that's a high sign of respect, since I'm trusting you to work with my openness despite that dislike.

Yeah, I think it probably mostly feels that way with a fellow Fi user. I feel comfortable with fellow Fe users, because I know no one's going to try and dig around in my psyche or emotions when I'm not ready for it.

This is great, too! I usually feel like adults aren't pavlovian (even though we all are in some ways), and to orient things around "reinforcing good behavior and negatively reinforcing bad behavior" is likely to backfire. If carried out on a surface level, it can be like those "motivational" posters, which never fail to make me feel first oppressed and then subversive.

In work settings, I feel like when you treat people like adults, they usually rise to the occasion. When you treat people like children, they usually sink to that level. Sometimes, being herded by Fe feels like there's an assumption that I'm not a adult who is responsible for his own stuff. That gets Fi's back up, because we can feel very territorial about the management of our own emotional space.

There has to be some sort of happy medium, I think. This is probably why it's good to have Fi and Fe in the world as sort of a checks and balances system.

Very true. The "good intent is not enough" was a difficult lesson for me to learn, and it's still not always a natural assumption. Part of Fi is managing one's emotional state, and part of that (for me personally, anyway) means I have a lot of good intent inside. That's an important part of my identity, so being told "it doesn't matter" is hard to hear. My natural inclination is to believe that "with good intent, understanding and perseverance a good result is assured." (Makes me roll my eyes to state it like that, have to admit.) Sometimes I think INFPs are so interior that we feel like once we've got things aligned internally, we're mostly done and the external action is just an niggling detail.

This is interesting. I think I feel that way with Ti--if it makes sense to me, you don't have to enforce it.

I think there are others who don't police their inner states quite so much. We tend to think people are like us. I think if everyone policed themselves internally, making sure their intentions were pure, we wouldn't need any external policing. But as you've noticed, there are a lot of people in the world that are going to try to get away with anything they can.

It does seem ironic that from Fe's perspective, a nicety like that seem artificial and patronizing. Isn't that usually an Fi complaint? But still, the re-establishing of good intent (especially before something negative) is helpful. It can also help defuse the NFP response of taking critique and criticism personally if it's clear that "my judgment of you and/or your contribution is still positive, even if I have these specific issues."

This is still a new idea to me, and I'm going to have to remember it.

I think the can opener treatment (heh!) can be unpleasant, especially right after one feels like one has laid one's card on the table and made oneself vulnerable. Laying one's emotional cards out, being met with a blank stare followed by a very specific "So, during that you said X here and Y there..." can feel like a rejection. Maybe it feels like asking for a thank you card for some out-pouring of emotion, but the moment after trying to reach out is a moment of vulnerability. I think the Fe user may assume "I'm still digging, so clearly I'm still interested so there's no need to focus on what I did understand."

That's exactly what we're assuming. And I don't think most of us have quite wrapped our brains around the idea that sharing Fi makes one so vulnerable. I understand the need to create a safe environment, though.

EDIT: Props to PeaceBaby and her post below... I respect her sticking with the discussion and continuing to put herself out there.

Me, too.

When I go to bed thinking about the conversation and wake up early still thinking about it, I've been online too much. I have such a strong desire to be understood that it appears to overpower my desire to understand in this thread.

That's understandable. I'm glad you've shared here--I think this is one of the few threads about this sort of thing that has actually been a learning experience, rather than a Graveyard Special.

I do want to say that what's been shared about Fe is appreciated. My appreciation usually comes in the form of statements, like this one. What I'm getting back from Fe users is that if I don't ask questions, Fe may feel I haven't been appreciating or paying attention either. If that's right, I will try to ask more questions (as they are relevant to the conversation.) So if Fe asks a lot of questions, Fe is trying to pin down the specific answers of what to do in situation X or situation Y. It doesn't necessarily mean they haven't heard what's been said.

That's right. We don't feel the need to repeat something that's already been said. We're zoning in on the parts that we don't understand yet. BUT, I do try to be conscious of giving an indication that I've heard, rather than just reacting. I just get excited about trying to understand that I sometimes forget. I realize it can look like I haven't heard.

From this thread, I think I understand better about Fe warning signs in writing, although honestly they don't stand out to me. I can see an Fi tripwire a mile off. Not so much an Fe one. IRL I am private anyway, so that helps prevent tripping over them, since I can't trip over one if I keep my thoughts to myself. And I get all the other signals too to warn me ... using the "spidey sense" as an early warning system!

Until I was hit on the head with the whole "Active Listening" stuff, I didn't know I was walking in the minefield. Maybe someone then could help me? By saying it plain like Tallulah? Without attaching a value judgement to it? Value statements hurt my feelings because my intentions are in earnest, and it's painful to be misconstrued. (In the span of a few posts, I was told I was being dismissive, pretentious, condescending and patronizing, to name a few.) It's an attack on my character, which is essentially an attack on Fi, and Fi is what we're talking about. I don't feel safe when one assigns a negative intention to me from out of the blue. I can't stay as objective, I run through all the posts, looking for the wrong words I said. I feel like running away. I feel under attack. I feel afraid.

Yeah, in this case, it was the language that set the Fe users off--sometimes Fi users are almost TOO solicitous, trying not to set off any mines, and then it ends up coming across like they're talking to kindergarteners. Sometimes you can just shoot straight and it comes off better to Fe ears.

Part of it was a misunderstanding, though. When fidelia told you she didn't like the way you had approached the suggestion to try active listening (as if she'd never heard of it), you heard it as her invalidating you, and you also thought she was rejecting your suggestion to try AL. So you started trying to convince her that AL wasn't bad and could be useful, and then you suggested she try it on you! Now!--which made it look even more like you're saying fidelia doesn't listen to people. And she was maintaining that she does, but it doesn't always work. As a third party it was easier for me to see than if I'd been a participant. But I also thought y'all would probably figure out the misunderstanding. It was just a language barrier, but it ended up being a bigger deal than it should have been originally. But it also goes to back up my earlier point, which is, y'all really don't want Fe people to be "open" all the time--we're much better with filters, trust me.

I'm not saying you have to, or should, speak Fe all the time. Or that it's better. I'm just doing the Fe perspective again.

Fe is, after all, what we culturally see and interact with every day. Sometimes here on the forum, I want to "let my hair down" and just express a question in a natural way for me. But it's naive of me to think that interacting on the forum is different than the real world. In the real world, I protect my innermost thoughts and feelings; I don't open this part of me to just anyone. This is a place most Fi users keep locked up and secret.

So when I offer to "take someone's hand", it's just an invitation to get to know me better, which means I will show that person more and more of my Fi, and when they start to understand my Fi more and more, they will better identify more and more Fi patterns IRL, and recognize them when encountered. No one Fi user will be exactly like me, but there will be enough similarity to say "aha!" And it won't seem so mysterious anymore.

I'm simply offering to take someone into my world. My world is made of Fi values. See how they are intertwined?

I understand that, and I'm glad you're extending that invitation. I could see your intention in those earlier posts, but I could also see how some of the statements would be taken by Fe users. It's just so weird. I am enjoying hearing the Fi perspective, and I don't want you to go into hiding.

My Fe takeaways:

1.) Tilty's post up there was refreshing and clear. That is the kind of honesty I am looking for. That's real to me.

When I hear tilty say the same Fe trust rules apply to everyone, and that it seems crazy to just start from a default position of trust, that anyone has to work or earn their way into the inner circle, that's helpful to know. It's not necessarily personal to feel mistrusted.

Yes! Very true. Don't take it personally. Everyone starts equally, and no one is inherently bad or wrong. And for me, it takes a while to get to my inner circle. I have to know someone's got my back and is wanting to stick around.

2.) That when Fe users jump in to share opinions all in a big pile, it's to verify what each other is seeing. Poster A: "Those pants are blue". Poster B: "Yes, they are"! Poster C: "Oh yes, that seems right to me." This does have the effect of feeling ganged up on, but, I can appreciate that's not necessarily the intent. One can more effectively validate what is agreed upon. It helps when other Fe users see what they think they see too.

YEP!

3.) I will reflect on the "Fe Rules to smooth things over":

I have to be honest: It is a little ironic when most Fe users responded negatively to Wonka's thread about how to treat "Upset ENFP's". If Fe users are loathe to give Fi users what they need, do Fe users have the right to ask for anything back?

But I will try. But please, I have trouble knowing where #1 is located sometimes. So if I ask, will someone just say it plainly?

That was a weird thread overall. I didn't think his OP was unreasonable, and I tried to understand where he was coming from. His behavior on the forums for the past week or so probably contributed to his poor reception in that thread, though. He was acting very erratically.

I'll be happy to provide Fe translation (to the best of my ability) anytime. I appreciate the Fi translation, too.

4.) I know it probably breaks all the collective Fe hearts to hear that Fi users walk gingerly around Fe users, as though on broken glass or eggshells, but it's true. Most of us are so concerned with offending Fe users that we try nearly anything to prevent conflict or misunderstandings. No one want to get shut out or door-slammed.

If we try to Fe-speak, it falls off somewhere because Fe is not our first language. If we Fi-speak, we get value judgements applied over top of our expressed emotions.

I list this as a take-away because I have no answer. If anyone does, they'll be the super-genius of the world. I'll try to reflect on it too.

I hope this thread will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings between the Fi and the Fe. I know it's given me a new perspective, and has made me reflect upon past relationships with Fi users and where they went wrong.

5.) Fe users generally feel emotions are not to be trusted or relied upon in the moment. Correct me on that if I've got it wrong.

For me, they are only a piece of the puzzle. So many times, if I'd reacted solely based on my emotions, I'd have made the world's largest fool of myself. I know there are always pieces I don't have, and I need to a) cool off, b) analyze, and c) ask for input.

Wow, lots to read! I think we're getting somewhere useful though. There's a bunch that I still need to go back through. The one thing that stands out to me is that what each of us thinks is being very obvious, isn't and also that how we feel validation of our words is different. I was interested to realize that what you would like to be validated for is the emotional effort put forth, rather than just WHAT you said. To me, I would naturally want response to what I said and not care as much if something valued that I said it. I was also surprised to realize that by pointing out something objectionable in the words said, it is felt as an indication of how we feel about you. I think there is something a little more detached and impersonal about Fe in that sense.

PB what you did up there is one way that I think you can make a Fe user feel listened to. Summarize what you are taking away from it and ask more questions! (Which is exactly what was frustrating you about us). To us, that feel like being listened to.

Good summary!

In return, would you say that thanking the person for putting themselves out there and then not bombarding with more questions is what works best for you? What form of listening actively would allow us to carry on the conversation without making you feel grilled? (Aw crap, I'm doing it again!)

Heehee!

 

[MacGuffin]

Yeah, you and I have talked about this before--we really hold back, knowing that anything we say in the heat of the moment could do damage in the relationship that would be difficult to repair. But I do think that once someone has repeatedly ignored our insistence that we aren't lying or suppressing or whatever, some of those barriers are removed. Because obviously they are not getting the message, and they need to back the heck up and understand we are serious. And they're not showing a lot of respect for us.

Yes, that's it, it feels like a lack of respect. I'll directly say they are wrong about me, and they'll insist they are not... and then I might do something really damaging to the relationship.

That's true--but if you find fault with my ideas, or I yours, it's rarely going to lead me to a judgment about your worth as a person. Unless I find out you're a child molester/murderer/animal abuser, Coldplay fan, etc.

I do kind of enjoy a few songs of theirs...

 

[Totenkindly]

Yes, that's it, it feels like a lack of respect. I'll directly say they are wrong about me, and they'll insist they are not... and then I might do something really damaging to the relationship.

Word on that. I have a bunch of anecdotes from that angle (at least one of them in this thread ), and I respond the same way.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Wow, lots to read! I think we're getting somewhere useful though. There's a bunch that I still need to go back through. The one thing that stands out to me is that what each of us thinks is being very obvious, isn't and also that how we feel validation of our words is different. I was interested to realize that what you would like to be validated for is the emotional effort put forth, rather than just WHAT you said. To me, I would naturally want response to what I said and not care as much if something valued that I said it. I was also surprised to realize that by pointing out something objectionable in the words said, it is felt as an indication of how we feel about you. I think there is something a little more detached and impersonal about Fe in that sense.

Yes, it feels like we are making progress, I agree. There are lots of small points that could bear refining, but they aren't too important at the moment. What is important is that we are sharing a dialogue, and can hopefully keep at that to come to mutual understanding.

PB what you did up there is one way that I think you can make a Fe user feel listened to. Summarize what you are taking away from it and ask more questions! (Which is exactly what was frustrating you about us). To us, that feel like being listened to.

That's helpful, but what kinds of questions are you looking for, generally speaking? Questions to refine the topic, questions about what you said? Questions about how you feel? What if I didn't have any questions? Would it be better to state, "I have no questions right now, but your post makes sense to me". ?

In return, would you say that thanking the person for putting themselves out there and then not bombarding with more questions is what works best for you?

It's more than thanking, and not quite thanking. It's a word that might make Fe users cringe, but I think of it as honoring. It means, "I recognize that you are exposing a very private aspect of your personality, and I appreciate you and respect that it may have been hard to do". To me it's an honor if someone is that honest with you ... opens their heart and exposes themselves to the possible censure of others. As Seymour mentioned ... yesterday when I laid it all out plain from my POV, it's like waiting, holding my breath, to see how I will be received. It's my last card to play. It's all I have.

That may sound a little melodramatic I know, but I am saying it like I feel it so you can maybe feel that a little too.

What form of listening actively would allow us to carry on the conversation without making you feel grilled? (Aw crap, I'm doing it again!)

I was pondering on that this morning. I think you tend to use Clarifying and I tend to use Reflecting. What do you think? For me the problem with Clarifying is that the listener clarifies in order to understand better, but a) I either don't know how to explain it any better or b) it feels like you didn't understand any part of what I already said, especially from the feelings perspective. The problem with Reflecting (esp feelings-based Reflecting) is that you DON'T think I have taken the time to understand your fact-based points and help refine them by fine-tuning with pertinent, thoughtful questioning.

Do you have experience with Non-Violent Communication techniques? I wonder how they are different? I was just reading some on that. I think I'd like to get the book.

PB, to me, what you did up there is what feels like active listening from a Fe standpoint. You have summarized some of what you are taking away and you have pointed out the things that seem less clear. I guess that's why I took offense at you asking why I was afraid to use active listening. I felt that I had just spent hundreds of posts doing that! Because my method of communication is what I place the higher value on, I also felt like that statement was invalidating me as a person.

I am sorry it felt like that to you. As above, I think we (ironically) focus on different components of the skill. And we are doing it to each other, but don't notice because we have our own vantage point.

As far as recognizing warning signs, I have a hard time the other way around, even though other Fi users could see it coming for miles. For Fe, in most cases if you hear someone pointing out a particular statement and saying "That sounds (insert negative descriptive adjective here)", it is not a personal statement about you. Instead, they are saying, "I think this is where you are going off the rails. I can't believe that you are actually (insert negative adjective here). Back up so that we can clarify this, I can ask questions to better understand where you are coming from, we can change the statement slightly to be more accurate for both parties or if you don't see why it sounds offensive to me, I'll give you the information you are missing.

OK, I can accept that, I have no questions about it. I just would like to say though that when anyone adds a value judgement to what I've stated (examples: "That was a condescending thing to say" - "You sound like you are dismissive") it is very hard for me to step back and not hear - "You are condescending" - "You are dismissive". It's taken years and years to be able to keep the appropriate arms-length from those words. But some are still harder to hear. It's challenging enough working to clear a misinterpretation with one person at a time never mind 3 or 4 Fe users and one PB!

I believe this is sometimes why Fe users seem to just keep harping on the same thing over and over during an argument. They want you to back up and acknowledge the thing they are pointing out. When you go on to talk about your intentions, or validation or anything else, they get frustrated and yell louder and get blunter and drop the niceties (because they think you are not getting the message they are conveying), which feels hurtful to a Fi user. Of course this is easier to analyze in retrospect than it is in real time.

It does feel like we miss each other's essential points. You are focussed on validating the message first, refining, clarifying. I think I am focussed on validating the person and the message is secondary in a way. Does that strike a chord with you?

When the "teacher voice" that skylights talks about gets used, it feel patronizing to us (what we see as the "real" issue still is being ignored and we assume that you either don't understand the problem or that you are not taking responsibility). What I didn't understand is that when that voice comes out, it is an indication of feeling overwhelmed and ganged up on and needing some time to sort thoughts out and refuel, as well as an affirmation of faith in each other's intentions.

The voice of Te is the voice of stress I guess. It desires to cut away the superficiality and get to the core of the issue in order to reestablish understanding and civility. No more flowery words. It's like - I need to take off my Fi glasses and really look hard at what I've said through the lens of Te. Te will tell me if I've been objectively incorrect. Or at least that's my theory. I don't know for sure. I always know my intentions; sometimes I can't control how it was heard. So then Ne will race through every tangential misinterpretation and every tangential way to try to fix whatever it was that went wrong. And Fi is feeling lonely and misunderstood and just wants to feel back to center, feel harmony again.

I also didn't understand that the need for personal affirmation and validation made so much difference. I find those kind of affirmations surprising and extraneous for myself, because I want to deal with what was said - with the idea. To me, it isn't anything personal and reaffirming me as a person, but not dealing with my words feels like you are just searching hard for something nice to say or like evading the issue at hand. The METHOD of conveying the idea is the part that forms my opinion of someone personally, more than their motive in doing so or in how much effort it took for them to put it out there. Therefore, it never occurred to me that I was invalidating you personally, because I was trying hard not to invalidate what you were saying and in fact showing affirmation by asking questions to better understand it. On the other hand, you had put yourself out there and it seemed like I was glibly skipping over that and minimizing the amount of emotional energy and effort it required to give words to it. Not only that but I was nitpicking about wording of something small and just honing in on it rather than the spirit of the message and the other sentiments expressed.

That is well-said and I can see your understanding pretty clearly in terms of your POV and how you are trying to describe mine. Thanks for taking the time to express all that. See, for me, the METHOD of conveying the idea has practically no bearing on how I form an opinion of you. Now, some people come across as being open or close-minded, and that might affect my opinion. Even what what they say, if they are a real tool. But I will formulate a sense of their intent, and forgive any verbal imprecision. Does that help you see what I mean?

See, for example, I already know I like you; I get good vibes from you and I am drawn to that. It doesn't have anything to do with anything in particular you have said to me. But I have felt for a while you are guarded with me and when I am around. What would help you feel less guarded over time?

And what do you do when you encounter someone who is really blunt and says things in a very confrontational way? Do you tend to avoid people like that in the first place? Because you assess it unlikely to be a fruitful exchange at all?

 

[Fidelia]

Tallulah expressed many of the points that I was mulling over extremely well! Thank you!

Regarding the active listening thing: I think the root of my frustration was that I felt like I already was actively listening by trying to summarize and ask questions. It became apparent that PB felt I was not, but I was needing some more specifics on how to make her feel actively listened to.

I wondered if the problem was not using the language "What I'm hearing is..." etc and so I explained why it felt fake and unnatural to me to do so. Then she said that wasn't it, but still didn't offer any ways of me communicating that I was listening that would work better for her. Instead, she then started asking if I was afraid it wouldn't work???? This made me even more frustrated, because now she was 1) assuming there was a fear present which wasn't actually there 2) assuming a teachery tone which made me bristley 3) misunderstanding me 4) still not offering the information I thought I had very plainly asked for!

Having tried several different ways of asking for the information, I then decided that if honesty was what was desired, then I would try to explain what impact the choice of wording had, why I found that statement offensive and how it impacted my willingness to try to accommodate. When I did all this, she responded by saying that she was drained and was going to leave for awhile. I felt again like the information I needed to be successful was being denied and I was trying so hard! Like playing a game, but the other person not telling you any of the rules.

Going back through the same incident now, I better can see what was needed from a Fi perspective to avoid some of that. I'm still afraid that in the heat of a moment, it'll be easy to revert to my customary approach, but I think that at least being aware of some of this will help me get back on track much sooner when I see things headed in that direction. I know that it is exhausting to do all that, PB, and it probably made for an unpleasant evening for you. I'm sorry for that.

This is a little unusual for me too. Usually when I get into a tangle with someone, I try to retreat fairly quickly to avoid the ensuing waves. It's only in the last while that I've understood that as long as there is mutual respect and a basic understanding that both parties are not going to melt down and resort to name-calling (or worse), then sometimes conflict can ultimately offer more understanding for both parties. This is one of the reasons that I went ahead and engaged (and yes, I realized that the words I wrote would be read as a little harsh).

 

[PeaceBaby]

sometimes conflict can ultimately offer more understanding for both parties

Yes, there is so much WIN in that statement, for both of us. I'll look forward to more of yours (fidelia's) and everyone's thoughts as the evening and weekend progresses.

In the meantime, I need to reenergize my brain.

P.S. Part of what's contributed to my fatigue is that dental surgery I had - it's wiped me out for the better part of a week now, to my surprise. I'm only starting to feel some improvements. But yesterday, the emotional and physical demands were just getting too much for a short while. I had to withdraw to replenish myself ... even in boxing, the rounds are only 3 minutes long!

 

[PeaceBaby]

From my own post:

2.) That when Fe users jump in to share opinions all in a big pile, it's to verify what each other is seeing. Poster A: "Those pants are blue". Poster B: "Yes, they are"! Poster C: "Oh yes, that seems right to me." This does have the effect of feeling ganged up on, but, I can appreciate that's not necessarily the intent. One can more effectively validate what is agreed upon. It helps when other Fe users see what they think they see too.

I just had a random thought: If as above, Fe users generally consult with other Fe users to be careful and verify if they are seeing things the same way, aren't they really just checking to see if the person or behaviour conforms to Fe guidelines?

IOW, it truly is confirmation bias. The bias will always run towards Fe. And Fe users will feel justified in their decisions, because a whole bunch of other Fe-ers agree.

Now, when I am running on Fi, I have been known to check in with a couple of Fi-ers myself, not to see if they agree per se, but to see if I am going too far, or if I am missing a huge red flag and should notch it down.

I just thought ... it's as though the Fe-ers should consult with Fi-ers and vice versa. Someone neutral; at least have one other person from the other team so to speak, to stay balanced in perspective.

Does anyone think that would be beneficial? Or are the world views too disparate?

 

[Fidelia]

When I check in with other people, it is very rarely to see that they would act in precisely the same way. If it's way out of line with what they see is appropriate, of course I like to be aware of that, but I usually am pretty aware.

What I'm checking is
1) if they think that my course of action will result in an outcome that is somehow destructive/non-productive for one or both parties and how
2) they see some information that I forgot to factor in that would possibly bring me to another conclusion
3) how it is likely to be perceived by the other person, so that I can weigh whether the negatives outweigh the positives or not.
4) what my attitude appears to be to them - I want to be sure that the way I am being perceived is consistent with what I intend to put out there

I'm not really interested in knowing whether they are 100% behind me, so much as making sure I'm working with all the information possible and that I am not blundering into something I hadn't properly considered.

If there is a Fi user whom I trust, they are available and I'm debating about how to respond to a Fi user, I would most likely consult them. People like Cze Cze, JJJ, Ivy and Udog would all be people whose judgement I trust and whom I have some history with. I tend to have more misunderstandings with Te heavy Fi users. Someone like Orobas has been helpful to me in the past for explaining some things. I would consult her a little now because I have some past history in threads talking to her.

I would also consult whatever Fe users were in the thread at the time to see if even from "our side" I was acting in a way that was out of whack. For example, even here, I posted something, asked Jennifer to read it and was considering taking it down. By the time she had responded saying that she could see that I was taking great pains to be respectful while being very forthright, but she wasn't sure how it would end up going. I was going to revamp and then realized you had already seen it and decided to let the chips fall where they may. I could see all along that Tallulah was taking a more concilliatory approach than me and while she wouldn't disagree with the spirit of what was being said, I could also assume that she probably wouldn't have gone at it the same way as me.

In this case, I decided that I would try doing something differently than I had in the past, realizing that you are a very reasonable person who does really care about sharing what you have to offer us, even at your own expense. I probably wouldn't have if I thought that we wouldn't have been able to come through to the other side. In this case, I understood that what I was doing would create conflict, but decided to go ahead with it for the greater good of seeing what productive stuff could emerge from that.

 

[William K]

For me, they are only a piece of the puzzle. So many times, if I'd reacted solely based on my emotions, I'd have made the world's largest fool of myself. I know there are always pieces I don't have, and I need to a) cool off, b) analyze, and c) ask for input.

Are you sure this is not some form of T?

 

[Fidelia]

I dunno. I identify with what she said too.

 

[Totenkindly]

I dunno. I identify with what she said too.

Then again, Fid, you have a pretty well-developed T (like Annwn).

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, hadn't really thought about that. Is that an enneagram thing, or is it more related to type of work etc that would encourage that?