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  1. #201
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    This is very true in the corporate world. The extroverted functions are able to express/assert themselves on others better than the introverted functions. At least Te/Fe/Se.. I'm not really convinced Ne has much leeway socially- unless there's some practicality involved in an Ne-user's ideas.
    Ne is the the brain storming function....it generates possibilities within the confines of the enviroment. It's also great tool to be had, when having to think off the cuff in emergency situations. That's when Ne is truly an advantageous function. I would not be surprised if Ne user were over represented in emergency services for instances. Sorry, this is off topic...I just had to address it. It's at it's best advantage in spontaneous situations.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  2. #202
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Here's the question, though. If the emphasis is always on the individual, how is a consensus ever reached? That's what always confuses me about Fi. Whose opinion is the most important? It's seemingly impossible to have everyone equally happy and validated.
    A couple of points
    - Having a personal/individual opinion on something doesn't necessarily mean that the opinion is different from the consensus. It just means that that opinion/view/value is reached based on the person's own internal processing, not something that is based on the social norm.
    - Even if an individual opinion is different from the norm, we're not talking about 1000 people with 1000 totally differing goals. There will be groups of individuals with a similar, albeit minority view of things. Finding a consensus is not an impossible task (unless you're talking about Middle East Peace, sadly)
    - In the worst case scenario where a person has some weird opinion that is totally unique and different from the norm, many times that opinion won't affect or be affected by the majority opinion. I think a couple of Fi-users have already mentioned it, but it's not a black-and-white thing that the individual opinion must always be put to the forefront. We are capable of doing things for the greater good.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  3. #203
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I think people tend to see Ti as subjective, basically because the basic foundations and premises are internally set.
    I don't fully understand it, but I am willing to admit that.
    I could be wrong, but I do think both Fi and Ti both work from the concept of "If I know this to be true, then X Y Z therotically are true too"
    Both functions are algorythms ever refining and redefining. Both distill outside input so the essence of "truth" is revealed. The material is different and thusly the equipment doing the refining is different.
    I'm not sure where I'm going with this.....but it seemed good.

    I don't necessarily think Fe as more objective, than Fi either. I always think of my mother when she'd say "I'm cold, put on a jumper." She didn't ask me, if I was cold, she assumed because she was cold, I was too. Again I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I'm just grabbing at strands of thought as I read this thread.
    Fi looks inherently selfish, because we act upon internal determinants, but Fe can be selfish too by imposing thier feelings onto to others without asking. I'm just repeating sentiments expressed already here.
    I'm thinking what irritates Fe users the most (and I'm basing this this off the feelings I get round Ti-users) is the fact we seem like we are hair splitting our feelings and our observations, and the Fe-users feel like they are about to get nose bleeds, because the answer right there already, what actions that need to be taken are already dictated, and it is just more efficent do it that way, rather trying to redefine what's already in place. Am I on the right track?
    So basically what irrates Fe users about Fi's grand declarations of Universal emotional truths isn't the truths themselves, but that we have completely ignored standard operation procedures (otherwise known as social graces, or what ever more appropriate word is applicable), declared our theories as fact without subjecting them to testing and peer review.
    The Fi users get upset when our grand theory of truth gets ignored, because using our own brand logic we've thought this through, deeply and examined for flaws (or unauthenticity.) Our theory is air tight, but we need people to accept our idea, so we can go out and test it and make the appropriate changes to the standard operating procedures, so they aren't so restrictive, but the truth is so obvious to us we don't understand why no one else can see it too.

    Am I on the right track?
    Last edited by CrystalViolet; 09-21-2010 at 07:47 AM. Reason: sentence structure
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  4. #204
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Stop imposing motivations on me that do not exist, Morgan.
    How does one impose a motivation, exactly?
    I already know that EW is not one to be "guilted" into not doing something, she's a pretty established character on this forum. I'd be an idiot if I was engaging her in order to do that, wouldn't I?
    That wasn't my implication. You are misreading me (as usual) and not only that, you are being aggressive and commanding (as usual). I asked a question. Which you haven't answered. You just choose to see it as a personal attack. Fidelia does not, perhaps because she has a better handle on her Fe.
    I'm also not primary Fe, so I use it differently... and sometimes poorly. Maybe I screwed up here.
    It's possible. And yet you don't question your own assumptions, just fly off the handle.

    You can stop mislabelling my (potentially misguided) attempt at authenticity as manipulation any time you like. I'm not whoever you happen to be projecting onto me, nor have I been.
    It never occurred to me that you might be trying to manipulate anyone. (NOW it has...) My question was about how those 2 responses were representative of the diplomacy that has been attributed to Fe by Fe users in this thread.
    EWs response suggested that she felt she had to tone down her approach (i.e. she felt guilty, which could be fairly easily anticipated, btw) but I can see nothing wrong with her comments in this thread - I was offering her my support as freely as you chose to attack her, as I saw no justification for that display of belligerence. You may feel free to express every antagonistic feeling you have, but you have no right to expect them to be validated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #205
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think it even bypasses the Fi/Fe thing to remember the point you stress here: "consider how a behavior inconveniences others." A lot of the forum issues and things people get in trouble for would be helped if people, regardless of type, would just think in terms of this.
    I will always care about how my behaviour might affect another person.

    But "behaviour" & "inconvenience" ... those words do make me feel this is more of an Fe judgement, interestingly.

    If you had said, "consider how your actions affect others", I wouldn't have zeroed in on it.

    Shall ponder. And I'll try to behave myself.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #206
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Here's the question, though. If the emphasis is always on the individual, how is a consensus ever reached? That's what always confuses me about Fi. Whose opinion is the most important? It's seemingly impossible to have everyone equally happy and validated.
    There is an implicit assumption in your question that consensus is a good thing, or even a possible thing. And you seem to be redefining the term to include the notion of compromise, when it is (ostensibly) about recognising the contribution and opinion of every individual within a group (including dissenters) - such that everyone IS happy and validated (or gives the appearance of it).

    How often is consensus actually required? How often can it be said to be truly unanimous and how often is it achieved through coercion or other manipulation? And if the latter, what value does it have over more arbitrary methods - other than the (deceptive) appearance of group validation? The entire concept is pure Fe (apparently it derives from the Latin term for "feel together"). So, in effect, you are asking Fi to validate a Fe value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #207
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I will always care about how my behaviour might affect another person. But "behaviour" & "inconvenience" ... those words do make me feel this is more of an Fe judgement, interestingly.

    If you had said, "consider how your actions affect others", I wouldn't have zeroed in on it.
    Which is ironic, since I was quoting Fi-maven EW (her post made at 12:11pm, Monday); I didn't choose those words myself.

    You're right, though; they do have a more Fe feel.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #208
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ It is. Seeing EW addressing those words to Fe users, they don't jump out, but when they are reflected back to Fi users, they do. At least for me.

    What resonated better for you?

    a.) "consider how your actions affect others" or b.) "consider how a behavior inconveniences others."

    Do you find yourself more open to one or the other?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #209
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Ironically again.... I like (A) better.

    *Jenny throws wrenches around the room, wheeee!*

    Mostly because I don't see "inconvenience" as being as strong as "affect." Affect seems broader to me, so it includes "inconvenience" to some degree but a host of other things as well... all of which I think needs to be considered.

    And I would probably have unconsciously used a word like "impact" instead of "affect."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #210
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Ooooh nice! And impact works, especially if one is throwing wrenches around!

    -----

    Z Buck, I have a massive example for you. Let me know when you are online and I will share it.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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