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  1. #191
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I could be wrong, but wouldn't be more fair (if we're going to talk about depth) to compare Ni and Fi, since they are the introverted functions? That's the source of NJ's depth, and part of what shapes their Fe (same goes the other way around for Ne-Fi.. it's not like ENFPs see ultimate oneness to the point of trivializing issues. They have Fi to add to depth to their perceptions).

  2. #192
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hey Z Buck,

    Correct me if I'm wrong - I seem to feel that you're getting a little frustrated with me. I hear you saying that although you recognize Fe is not equal in depth to Fi, that an intelligent, caring, mature Fe user is, of course, going to make the effort to try to understand everyone as best they can. And I appreciate that, very much. Your presence here has brought me to some new insights, and I am very excited about that. Thank you!
    Ha. I was getting a little frustrated, yes. That is what I was getting at. And thank-you.



    Well, I guess I could give personal examples if that would be helpful. Would it? But it would be more specific than general, and as OA pointed out in her epic post above, will always tend to sound more negative than positive, which will likely raise hackles. Think on that; let me know what I could share to facilitate this understanding.

    Yeah, I think it would be helpful. Something which has been slightly frustrating has been that the feedback thus far has been on aspects of Fe that I believe I'm already keeping in check- but it might be because it's put in terms of generalities (being 'fake', unreasonable expectations, etc..). It's easy to exclude oneself from generalities because there are so many ways that I'm aware of the tendency and can fill in the blanks with the ones I'm aware of. Specifics just also make it more helpful to understand the experience someone else has of why it feels stifling (empathy-wise)- if that makes any sense. In short: yes, I think specifics would be helpful.
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  3. #193
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ maybe you should start a new thread on it; see if anyone has advice you might find useful, tortoise.

    Or, try that format that EW put in the first post in this thread. See if that yields and useful insights.

    Nice to meet you; welcome to the forums!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  4. #194
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I can't argue with you here about the I/E factor. Extraversion brings things out into the forefront. Introverts can go under the radar, so to speak.
    Yes. Something I'll readily admit, even being an introvert. The big thing that drove this home to me personally is when I came out of my shell far more in the last few years, acquired some relational/social power on a broader scale, and now realized I had to practice a lot more restraint than I had used to. Before, I had sort of kept myself under wraps and well-behaved by remaining voiceless; I no longer had that buffer and had to be more careful in what I said and didn't say.

    But as far as the Fe gone awry examples I gave being more about immaturity more than Fe, I'm going to say that disagree with you. Yes, of course immaturity is involved here. But the way that immaturity is expressed has to do with what cognitive functions are at play. So an immature Fe user will display their immaturity by making immature decisions with their Fe.
    Maybe the motivations are different, but the hardline stances you take to always support a POV that is reflective of your personality type comes off as self-justification and self-exoneration. I think it's reasonable to say that I take a different approach -- I've cut on Ti and Ne as much as anyone else, despite them being preferred perspectives for me, but I don't perceive that level of fairness in your commentary, and you end up seeming smug instead... like you know the truth and simply have to defend your POV and lecture everyone until they finally come to their senses and agree with you.

    (I've had issues with other ENFPs, for the exact same reasons. Not all ENFPs... but predominately that type. I'm not sure why the Ne+Fi combo is producing that sort of approach, I just don't grasp it well enough.)

    But here's something a bit more tangible on the matter: Potentially, I might not be getting back the social cues in our communication that tell me that my participation has any value or impact on the conversation. I did get a little bit from you this time, where you agreed on the introvert/extrovert thing and explained why, which started things off on the right foot, but immediately I felt myself skidding to a halt.

    I do think that motivations are different between perspectives, yes. And I understand your explanation and agree that Fe will tend to think more in terms of the social consequences vs the individual ones, and also will leverage social power in order to get their way vs Fi which operates on a far more individual basis.

    (I did an analysis of Glinda and Elphaba in the Pop Culture/Type forum this weekend; they're a pretty clearcut case of Fe/Fi values clashing, and Glinda is one of the extreme, almost cliche examples of the sort of Fe you are describing. It's also interesting to see how both might have the same sort of broad goals and want to create "good"... but their approaches and perspectives are so different that they are often in conflict and at the beginning really despise each other.)

    Thank you for trying to express your thoughts after some reflection on how to do it in the most "mature" manner possible. I figure this is the best any of us can hope for. To be aware of our strengths and weaknesses and proactively manage them. I very much respect what you're saying here.
    Thanks. Two of the most important people in my life are actually Fi-intensive and we've had discussions on this issue recently and what they would appreciate from me; and it's being honest about my emotional state and/or personal opinions rather than "saying the right thing" or "always being appropriate" when it comes to relational matters. In fact, the one told me that when I drop into "appropriate" behavior, she actually feels like our relationship is more distant (and she's offended) because I'm treating her like just another person in the collective, and she'd rather hear exactly how I feel.

    I'll just be clear that, while it sounds easy, it's damned hard -- like fumbling through the dark looking for a light switch that might not exist, and I'm scared I'll break something.

    As a side note, I find it very interesting that Fe/Fi discussions have the ability to get people so upset. I've noticed on this forum that when Fe/Fi differences are discussed someone almost always gets upset. Usually there is some kind of comment like, "That's why I hate Fe/Fi." Perhaps this is because what's up for discussion involves people's sense of fairness and right and wrong.
    Pretty much. This was a balanced comment.

    My awareness of this sensitivity is one of the reasons that I suggested we use the format described in the original post. I think that by forcing oneself to consider how a behavior inconveniences others... even if you firmly believe your actions were the right thing to do... is a wonderful way to bypass going into defensive / aggressive mode.
    Oh damn... now you're gonna make me read the whole thread? :steam:



    I think it even bypasses the Fi/Fe thing to remember the point you stress here: "consider how a behavior inconveniences others." A lot of the forum issues and things people get in trouble for would be helped if people, regardless of type, would just think in terms of this.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #195
    Senior Member tortoise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ maybe you should start a new thread on it; see if anyone has advice you might find useful, tortoise.

    Or, try that format that EW put in the first post in this thread. See if that yields and useful insights.

    Nice to meet you; welcome to the forums!
    Hi! I deleted it. I got into a mood where I was focusing too much on my past stuff-ups.

  6. #196
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think it even bypasses the Fi/Fe thing to remember the point you stress here: "consider how a behavior inconveniences others." A lot of the forum issues and things people get in trouble for would be helped if people, regardless of type, would just think in terms of this.
    good point, though that pretty much is Fe, is it not?

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    good point, though that pretty much is Fe, is it not?
    No, it's not.

    People with Fi can care about what hurts or deeply bothers others. We can care because we don't want to hurt other people.

    Fe cares because it's inappropriate, because it's not "right."

    The difference is really that, say, me for example: I don't like to *hurt* people or *bully* people, but I don't really give a shit if I annoy them or make them uncomfortable.

    Someone with Fe might also be concerned that they'll even annoy or inconvenience someone else.

    Well I guess you're right then. The word "inconvenience" is a little extreme. It's like COME ON, LEARNING CAN BE UNCOMFORTABLE.

  8. #198
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    No, it's not.

    People with Fi can care about what hurts or deeply bothers others. We can care because we don't want to hurt other people.

    Fe cares because it's inappropriate, because it's not "right."

    The difference is really that, say, me for example: I don't like to *hurt* people or *bully* people, but I don't really give a shit if I annoy them or make them uncomfortable.

    Someone with Fe might also be concerned that they'll even annoy or inconvenience someone else.

    Well I guess you're right then. The word "inconvenience" is a little extreme. It's like COME ON, LEARNING CAN BE UNCOMFORTABLE.
    See, here, Fe would wonder why an Fi user would presume it's their place to teach people who haven't asked. To us, it feels presumptuous. (Though I am definitely aware of the theme in this thread that Fe and Fi both find the other function presumptuous, just in different ways.)

    I'd also like to take this time to say OrangeAppled's post was excellent and enlightening.
    Something Witty

  9. #199
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Being a Ti user has some very serious career implications, just as Fi users speaking openly does. I would argue that in both cases, the extroverted function tends to discriminate against introverted function users in very tangible ways.
    Apparently, it's not controversial when you say it. But when I start a thread expressing similar sentiments in greater depth, I'm nothing but a rabid Fe-hating troll. :rolli:
    Ah recursion...
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I was just thinking to myself about the similarities between Fe and Te hegemony over their introverted cousins
    ....
    Ti User: "You know everyone has something to offer don't they? And also everyone has a subjective reality. I'm not disagreeing with your logic regarding ABC. But that doesn't mean there is not validity in my what I'm saying either. And, it feels like you're not willing to acknowledge that."

    Te User: "I see what you're saying. You're right. And, of course, how you see things is important to me. While the solution I proposed is probably the quickest way to a solution, what you're saying is logically correct and my solution doesn't take this into account.

    ^^^^^
    To me the above exchange is good because it's not pandering to either side.
    LOL. That exchange would never happen.
    Actually, I have no problems communicating with Te users (as long as they aren't overly dogmatic) since we both respect logic and so that becomes a common language.

    My disagreements and communication failures occur on the whole with Fe users - because we speak completely different languages and it's very difficult to find common ground.

    I disagree with your conclusions about Ti and Fi being equivalent in terms of subjectivity. I think you're misapplying the terms once again. Ti seems to be a real struggle for non Ti-users to understand.

    I'm a Ti/Fi user so what you are suggesting is that I'm incapable of objectivity, when in fact, it's one of my greatest strengths. Taking a "first principles" approach is as close as one can get to objectivity.

    Collective subjectivity <> objectivity
    Consensus <> truth
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    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #200
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    People with Fi can care about what hurts or deeply bothers others. We can care because we don't want to hurt other people.

    Fe cares because it's inappropriate, because it's not "right."
    MBTI is not the "real" way to view things, it's just a framework. Fi & Fe are useful conveniences but still only facets/approximates of human behavior and motivation.

    I think Fe and Fi have the TENDENCIES you describe... but once people start insinuating that people viewing the world through Fi have no respect for what is appropriate and that Fe people do not actually care about others, it's veering far away from reality.

    All those feelings tend to be within each individual, and usually our motivations are a muddled mix. We're discussing priorities and stacking and perspective, not saying that a certain motivation is not at all part of the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    good point, though that pretty much is Fe, is it not?
    Is it, exclusively? What if one of your personal values is not inconveniencing others?

    It's kind of funny that I know a lot of people from both ends of the map, and I get along with them just fine and find "common good" with them. We're both still interested in the same sort of positive things regardless of Fi or Fe status. There's only a handful of people who seem to take an extreme view of one or the other (social stability vs personal vision) at all costs that I seem to butt heads with. Most people seem to have degrees of both desires within them.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    good point, though that pretty much is Fe, is it not?
    Is it? What if one of your personal values is not inconveniencing others?

    @OrangeAppled: Thanks so much for your post. Still absorbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    THIS is Fe "diplomacy"? What am I missing? If you think her understanding of Fe is wrong, correct her by all means, but making it personal/emotive and trying to guilt her into expressing herself differently is unjustifiable, IMO.
    Stop imposing motivations on me that do not exist, Morgan.

    I already know that EW is not one to be "guilted" into not doing something, she's a pretty established character on this forum. I'd be an idiot if I was engaging her in order to do that, wouldn't I?

    I'm also not primary Fe, so I use it differently... and sometimes poorly. Maybe I screwed up here.

    All I knew is that she respects honesty rather than fake civility, and I was also frustrated by my emotional bias here... so I decided to just be honest about it rather than pretending it didn't exist. I figure the best way to be understood is to admit bias up front, and she would respect that more than another approach.

    You can stop mislabelling my (potentially misguided) attempt at authenticity as manipulation any time you like. I'm not whoever you happen to be projecting onto me, nor have I been.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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