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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Sorry for the confusion. I know NTs wouldn't necessarily see eye to eye with NF's on an F level. I just meant that NFJs and NTJs are somewhat similar because of Ni. Neither one is SFJ or STJ (not to point out the obvious). If one can appreciate an ENTJ, the same should apply to ENFJ. Their Fe, in and of itself, is not oppressive. If we keep it strictly on a Fe vs Fi level however, the discussion is bound to get lost on someone's hangups about their ESFJ mother.. and possibly project that kind of Fe on to an ENFJ. Personally, I happen to see a lot of good about ESFJ moms, but I know they're nothing like ENFJs either. So why discuss it here?
    Well you can say that NFJs are like NTJs because of Ni, but you can also say NTJs are like NFPs because of Fi/Te (which is something I feel more strongly as someone who has Fi/Te...even when I like an NTP I'm just keenly aware of their Ti or Fe at some point, and it's just not as easy for me to understand them, and I somehow feel more criticized by them. Both on-line and IRL it seems to me like an NTJ can speak to me pretty bluntly without upsetting me (usually, ofc not 100% of the time) ...IRL to me they feel..."still"...like they have this still solidity about them so even when they disagree with me it's easier for me to understand their explanation as to why. A lot of times with NTPs I pick up on the Fe agenda in ENTPs, or the hyper-vigilence of Ti precision in INTPs. It's like something is lost in translation, and it's very real.

    It's strange, though, because I typically seem to get along with IxFJs swimmingly even though they have Fe/Ti. My INFP cousins are more likely to annoy me. It makes very little sense in terms of functions or letters.

    But anyway...you can say that you have this or that in common with any type...all NFs are NF...NTJs and NFJs share Ni....IxFJs share Fe auxillary....INFJs and ISTPs both have Ti/Fe...you get the picture.

    Bah.. I sound like I'm trying to enforce a direction in the discussion in this very post (Not that I have the power to do that). Just a thought, that's all. I'm not upset or anything. I just see something going wrong here if we project our conceptions of functions on to completely different types. It could apply to even Te. Like Kalach said: "Poor downtrodden Te" I'm sure he has to take crap for his Te because of.. someone's ESTJ dad or something.

    Yeah a lot of people call Te the asshole function, so it can be downtrodden in that sense. Personally, I think ENTPs are assholes, too. Really any type can be an asshole, including my fellow ENFPs (then again, we have tert Te...)

  2. #182
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Fidelia and Jennifer, I want you to know that I'm going to really think about what you both have said here. I need some time to reflect. I think what I'm hearing is that I don't attend enough to the give and take of a bi-directional conversation. Is that what you're saying? At least in part?
    FWIW, I have no idea what they are on about, and I think they were both pretty rude and hostile to you without the slightest provocation. If this is carried over from another thread, it's out of order. You've been nothing but courteous and respectful here as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Because we've had a go around before, EW, I don't feel as annoyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again... you're really offensive right now.

    My basic feedback is that I personally have a really hard talking to you because you phrase things habitually in ways that piss me off;
    THIS is Fe "diplomacy"? What am I missing?
    If you think her understanding of Fe is wrong, correct her by all means, but making it personal/emotive and trying to guilt her into expressing herself differently is unjustifiable, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You're pretty unique, Morgan. And I mean that just as I say it, as an observation without judgment attached; I have never really met anyone else quite like you.
    I hear that a lot. My Fi appreciates such sentiments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #183
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    If Fe was purely an amalgamation of Fi values, then you would "know" what Fi is talking about, no, even if you disagreed with it? When you saw Fi you would recognize an Fi value and, presumably, if you create your rules from Fi, this amalgamation, this bubble of Fe should be widening all throughout your life with every Fi user you meet. Theoretically, it would exceed any individual Fi user's depth and should thus be so broad in scope to be practically universal in application.

    Yet, I will posit: this does not happen for most Fe users; actually none I know either. I think most people formulate an Fe bubble throughout the formative years and a set of "rules" from that, and that set of rules becomes more static; something that could be so flexible, becomes far more rigid and controlling. "This is right, this is not" ... new situations and people can appear to be disrupting an implicitly agreed upon harmony that has guided an Fe user up to this point in their own life.

    In this scenario, of Fe being a bubble that expands, the individual's voice, the voice of Fi, is nothing to avoid, or fear, or need to control. It simply is more data to add to an ever-widening pool of experience.

    That's why I have to believe there's more depth to Fi than Fe "sees", because if Fe could see it, it would care, wouldn't it? As you point out above ZBuck? In order to foster more and more harmony within the group?
    Here's the question, though. If the emphasis is always on the individual, how is a consensus ever reached? That's what always confuses me about Fi. Whose opinion is the most important? It's seemingly impossible to have everyone equally happy and validated.

    Example: The simulatedworld thing. You (general you) can say that he should be allowed to express himself because he has some solid ideas, and just because he's weak in some areas, that shouldn't mean he should be silenced. But then you have an entire other group of people that have been offended by things he's said and believe that it diminishes their forum experience to have the increased personal attacks and disharmony that results from ignoring forum rules. So who should win out? Obviously in a situation like that, not everyone can be validated. You can hear all the voices, but ultimately, doesn't a decision have to be made that is best for the overall harmony and ease of use of this forum?
    Something Witty

  4. #184
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I didn't say the goal was to encapsulate the entirety of every sound Fi judgment that crosses my path, and I didn't say it was purely an amalgamation of Fi.
    What I am getting at though, is that you would recognize Fi. I don't think that is true. I don't feel "known", I don't feel a reaching out where I can be an individual within Fe. Fe strives more to make me fit, than to fit me in. And, that's a pretty expedient way of dealing with folks in order to get stuff done.

    For obvious reasons, Fe will never supercede Fi in depth. My point was simply that adding as much depth to a Fe judgment as possible is what seperates the intolerable Fe users from the thoughtful ones. The same goes for Te. There are some Te/Fe users that come across as too domineering and some that don't- it isn't about the extraverted function itself, it's about the mindfulness with which one uses it.
    I think that's a very wise comment.

    I'm not really sure I understand this part. I mean that's the whole point of expanding the Fe bubble- to foster more harmony: not in the imposed "fake harmony" sense, but in the sense of truly generating more authentic harmony.
    It means you aren't seeing what's in the cave, to use Usehername's metaphor earlier. You see what is only visible, not the depth, and therefore cannot formulate the most effective Fe rules from what you cannot see. So therefore, how can Fe truly encapsulate Fi?

    That's why I don't think Fe is an amalgamation of Fi. If it was, I would feel like I could be "known" inside that warm and harmonious bubble. Truly, that is a rare thing. Why? Because no one actually takes the time to ask or find out.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #185
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Here's the question, though. If the emphasis is always on the individual, how is a consensus ever reached? That's what always confuses me about Fi. Whose opinion is the most important? It's seemingly impossible to have everyone equally happy and validated.
    I have to agree it's hard to reach a consensus. It takes a great investment of time and energy. It's not the most expedient way, by any stretch. But, when people feel heard, feel known, you get the best out of everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Example: The simulatedworld thing. You (general you) can say that he should be allowed to express himself because he has some solid ideas, and just because he's weak in some areas, that shouldn't mean he should be silenced. But then you have an entire other group of people that have been offended by things he's said and believe that it diminishes their forum experience to have the increased personal attacks and disharmony that results from ignoring forum rules. So who should win out? Obviously in a situation like that, not everyone can be validated. You can hear all the voices, but ultimately, doesn't a decision have to be made that is best for the overall harmony and ease of use of this forum?
    Ah, sim. Well, we have to have rules because without them, the ensuing chaos would be a menace to hearing all voices and getting anything accomplished in this world. One must learn to abide by them, but to be aware there are times for leniency and times to even break them.

    The forum is not a democracy where all voices are welcomed to help deliver a verdict. I think the mods did the best they could in a difficult situation.

    There's the need to have a balance, between the needs of the many, or the few, or the one. (How Star Trekky of me!) Each situation brings unique challenges to achieve fairness, justice and equity, no?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #186
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    This thread is moving fast, and I took time to write a massive reply, so if any of this has been covered, apologies in advance for being redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I definitely lean towards Fe rule enforcement on here, not because I Heart Rules, but because having some order makes it easier to keep a discussion on track, and I like to see people's drama kept to a minimum. I have zero problem with people expressing themselves, but when we're having an interesting discussion and it turns into three pages of flirting or three pages of YOUR MOM IS RETARDED AND SO ARE YOU, it becomes very frustrating, and it's difficult to keep the ideas flowing. Have that discussion in the "your mom is retarded" thread.
    I'm not a fan of those derails also, but I don't think it's a Fi/Fe matter. Introverted feeling can be very sensitive to the emotional environment, but feels a lot more powerless to affect it. This means that more than not, we lead passively, by example. Outside of example, Fi often appears negatively, because it's in response to a violation. I'll get into that more below, especially where intuition comes into play regarding a Fi-doms manner of addressing an issue head-on without causing drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think you touched on some important points. One that stood out most to me was the idea that Fe is more interested in the end result, while Fi is more interested in precision in expressing the emotion itself.
    It's VERY important to note this is far less about emotion than feeling-values & feeling-thoughts. We're talking about consistency of ideal concepts more than emotion. Jung said that everything true of Ti is true of Fi, except Fi deals with feelings, which are evaluations of what is significant, valuable, and true from a moral/ethical stance. Fi forms models of what is ideal just as Ti forms models of what is logical.

    Emotions are signals which the INFP will find useful, but not necessarily heed, particularly if they conflict with a feeling-value. I process emotions best when alone, because I need to turn inward to evaluate, and so the only times you really get any outburst from me is because I have not been able to process them and someone is demanding an immediate response.

    Our goals are entirely different. Therefore it's not surprising that the method is different. Perhaps the issue is that Fe users assume that everyone would be concerned with the end result. I know that I certainly have and so this is what has puzzled me about the way Fi goes about handling some situations.
    I don't know if we have different goals...I really think we have similar goals, but start from a different end. Interpersonal harmony will certainly help a person feel at peace internally, and internal peace tends to make a person more cooperative with others. Both are ideal, and Fe & Fi seem to focus on one end, which is why they have plenty of overlap & work very well together as long as communication is clear.


    I don't know if I agree with you with some of what you said about Fe. I think it is essential to be honest about BOTH method and motive. I may not say everything that is in my head at once, but I sure as anything would not lie or manipulate other people people if I thought it served the greater good. I am just as sickened by that as any of you are. If I know that I am worlds apart from someone in opinion, yes I will look for common ground first, and I will also hold back some of the strength of what I feel, but that does not mean that I would lie about it or that I would be reluctant to say what I thought if the person solicited my opinion.

    I agree that good results can come from something bad and bad results can come from something good, but to me morality is extremely important. I could not justify using bad methods of affecting people's opinions or actions, even if my motives were good. It puzzles me that Fi users often assume that all across the board Fe users do this. It is not a matter of "spinning" a reason that is more palatable to the audience. I believe a situation doesn't have to be win lose. If you can present your own motive ALONG WITH a reason why the other person may have an interest in doing something, it seems to me that you are being honest, but still giving the hearer more information to consider, which is needed to make an informed choice.
    I said Fe can appear to be manipulative, but I didn't mean to imply it IS. I think I explained why having to appeal to another person's needs is somewhat invalidating of Fi, which says NO external reason is needed to validate the feeling. To do so can appear suspect to Fi - why is this person resorting to these "excuses"? Why do you need common ground to accept my viewpoint as valid?

    I speak of Fi here in a pure form, which does not exist in a real person. In reality, Fi-ers use their other functions to perceive how to get a point across without diluting the message or needlessly offending people (which definitely can involve common ground), and inferior Te can be accessed to provide factual support where needed. I'll go into that later....

    I think for an introvert, this is very tiring, which is why much of the time, a Fi-dom will probably choose to stay quiet and lead by example. I do realize that at worst, this comes across to Fe-ers as apathy, purposefully distancing yourself from people, or doing things in defiance of the group. This is why I often piss off ESFJs much more than they piss me off. I easily ignore them, but they have a harder time ignoring me. It drives them batty when I am unaffected by them & have no interest in affecting others. In my mind, I have done nothing, but lack of trying to affect seems like lack of Feeling to Fe. So once again, Fi is viewed as largely negative in its expressions or non-existant.

    Again, I suppose though that it comes down to results. Even if your reason should be good enough and it is if you are examining it from a valid feeling point of view, it is often not enough to actually produce the outcome which could potentially be beneficial to everyone. Perhaps though the issue is that Fi objects to anyone deciding what might be beneficial, particularly if it applies to anyone other than themselves? I'm not sure about standing behind that statement, just am wondering if that's a factor.
    Fi, like Ti, is less concerned with real world application than the principle being thoroughly sound. Unfortunately, yes, this sometimes means there is a pointing out of what is flawed without any solution. This is annoying when Ti-ers do it also. Fe & Te seem cool with something if it works in reality, even if it is a bit flawed. I think that's why in one individual, you have both a Je & Ji function - they are needed for balance. Fe sometimes will accept something very flawed if no other alternative is present - Fi says this method is unacceptable. Fi CAN provide a model of the concept to apply in the real world, but it requires those other function, and once again, it requires a lot of energy. This is why Fi often only appears to Fe to be negative, because it only shows its face in response to a violation, to offer its criticism and to make an attempt to right the wrong.

    When Fe asks for external validation of feeling, it is not to stifle others. They are looking for a mirror to reflect how they appear to others and to help give them more information to take back inside as they sort out their own feelings/beliefs about something. They are not trying to force someone to give the right answer. However, if someone comes back with something that seems unexpectedly hostile or strident, they may react with either feelings that it is the other person's problem or their own rather than that they are feelings which are a whole commodity in itself. It will be felt personally in some way, particularly if it is presented in a manner which seems uncaring, hostile or ambushes them.
    It is NOT any hallmark of a Fi-user to constantly be hostile in communication, IMO. I think I noted above why Fi may seem only negative to Fe, and that's because Fi works somewhat defensively while Fe seems to work offensively. Fe seeks to affect to promote peace & prevent discord, and Fi only responds in situations where some violation of a core value has occured. It makes Fe appear pro-acive, and Fi appear truculent, which leaves the Fi-dom feeling misunderstood.

    Regarding Fe-ers misunderstanding Fi-ers reasons, I think part of the issue is that they often do not have enough information to work with. Like Te makes us feel, Fe seems to put Fi on the spot when they want more explanation to understand those deeper reasons. Yet without that information, it may appear to not make sense, similar to how Ti users seem rather illogical to Te users if they do not understand how Ti is framing the situation and the depth of thought that has gone into what they have considered.
    This hits a nail on the head & wraps up what I've been leading to above.... YES, Fi-ers will feel put on the spot when asked to come up with an external validation for their reasoning. Now, the default way a Fi-dom will use to explain the deeper feeling is via the Pe function. For INFPs, this means Ne, and that means they often concoct some sort of metaphor to connect the conceptual feeling to something "real". INFPs run into trouble when this form of communication is dismissed. To Fe-ers credit, their Ti use often allows them to accept a concept as valid as long as it is logically consistent in itself - there does not need to be factual evidence. I communicate well with FeTi or TiFe people if they accept these "theories" I present them to explain my idealistic models. For NFJs, they also use Ni and are often comfortable with metaphors & concepts. So presenting the feeling through a metaphor or hypothetical situation is often the means a Fi-er will use.

    For ISFPs, this is even more complicated as their iNtuition is tertiary & introverted. You'll find that many ISFPs are less articulate than INFPs (why INFPs may be associated with being writers & ISFPs with the visual arts), and when young/immature, they may simply give up on trying to communicate their feelings. Then, they appear to be a "rebel without a cause" because no one understands them, so they'll just do what they want, how they want, and screw everyone else. I've seen this attitude in varying degrees in ISFPs, and sometimes in INFPs, but less so. It's also the enneagram 4 tendency to embrace being "outcast"....whereas the enneagram 9 tends to do the opposite - deny their own feeling to maintain harmonious relations. They may come to believe the idea that their feelings are invalid & that everything is in their head, so why trust it? Sometimes this appears as sycophantic behavior, and the 9 may sacrifice too much of their own needs to keep peace, believing their needs are not legitimate anyway. This idea is spread by other people - I can't tell you how many times I've heard people IRL refer to Fi-doms as being "on their own planet" or "nut jobs" or whatever dismissive phrasing to imply their perspective & feelings are irrelevant. I see this with my ISFP e9 step-dad, who often ends arguments with people saying, "I don't know how to talk. I don't know what's right. I need other people to tell me what to do." - he just waves the white flag and resigns himself to the situation.

    In Gifts Differing & many other MBTI books, it is noted how IMPORTANT intuition is to a Fi-dom when it comes to expressing themselves. Intuition allows them to create a NEW mode of expression, one which satisfies the external demands and their own feeling. Most of the time, the Fi-dom demonstrates this mode - they lead by example. When they communicate it verbally, an INFP will often go the metaphorical route, and if it's accepted by the other person, then great. If not, they will try out other ideas they have - refining the metaphor or creating new ones until it is acceptable to the other person as reasonable. ISFPs who develop Ni will often choose the most clear method and relate it via illustration - there's a clearer connection between the feeling & a real world example, but it's also more specific and limiting in a way because it has to fit the concept into something existing. You'll find ISFPs learn & teach via relating experiences & stories that are real & that people relate to, but they are actually illustrations of a concept. INFPs may do this also, but there is a greater tendency to use pure metaphor.

    INFPs, however, will find themselves frustrated when their preferred form of communication is dismissed as invalid because it is not concrete. Or we become frustrated when we explain it over & over & over in as many ways as we can think of, and still no one gets it. I can't emphasize to you enough how DIFFICULT communicating Fi is. It is arguably the most subjective function, which means finding external validation is a real chore. You are almost forced to be creative, forced to be innovative, forced to be poetic, forced to utilize whatever abstractions other people will accept as valid in the real world. I'm sure Ni users grasp this difficulty - I know they do. Communication with them is often much easier for me than with an SFJ, although I give my ISFJ mom a LOT of credit in the lengths she goes to in trying to understand someone. It is useful when she mirror back also - there's a "am I getting this right?" approach which shows respect for my feeling & which makes an honest attempt to discern the underlying concept. I have a feeling that both IxFJs are somewhat easier for me to communicate with, as they "see" before they judge. They'll make a judgment, but be open to retracting it if you explain they did not see what you really meant. This causes a LOT of back & forth, as these threads demonstrate, but I do believe bridges are made. ENFJs have the advantage of Ni in communicating as well - there's less focus on details and a readiness to grasp the underlying meaning.

    Interestingly, one of the most difficult people to communicate my feelings to is my ESFP sister, a fellow Fi-user. Things are fine & dandy when she agrees with my feeling, because she shares it. It's when she doesn't agree that the problems arise. Being a Se-dom, she rejects theory that cannot be clearly connected to something REAL. She will constantly dismiss my perspective as "irrelevant". She hates hypothetical situations & refuses to take metaphors seriously. It's not that she can't grasp them, it's that they are invalid to her because they are not real. So how must I prove my point? With Te, because she is not a Ti-user and could give a monkey's butt about how consistently logical my metaphor is. So I have to access my inferior Te, and that takes TIME & energy. Often, she wants an explanation or a solution NOW (Se can be rather impatient), and I become emotionally provoked, because I am allowed no time to process my feeling (best done alone) and so I react with emotion. This is when Fi gets "hostile". If you feel a Fi-er getting hostile, BACK OFF. Give them some time to think & come back to the topic later. I can accommodate a Fe-ers need to work out a feeling with someone else much better once I am emotionally calm.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I believe that feelings come and go and you can't always trust them to guide you. They are important not to ignore, they can propel you into action you wouldn't bother to take otherwise, but there have been times that it would have been very detrimental for me to unload everything I'm feeling. At the same time, I believe people need enough information to work with. Especially with Fe users, saying even a little bit can give them pause and cause them to go back within themselves and look at their own actions and feelings. I know that Fi would like them to do that on their own, but it just is not how they process information. Same reason Te needs something to interact with to look at an issue further. You can always step up the intensity and urgency of the message if needed.
    I think I mostly addressed this above as far as Fi preferring to lead by example & often trying many many different ways to explain a feeling peacefully (via intuition) before launching a direct defense outburst (which is often on some Te basis, which is why it can seem abrasive to Fe).
    We're talking LAST RESORT with Fi when it gets abrasive. It is IDEAL to both F types to have integrity across the board, but from my perspective, when something has to be sacrificed, then Fi-ers will sacrifice good relations to maintain internal harmony and Fe-ers will sacrifice underlying meaning to maintain external harmony. This is where you sometimes see Fe-ers out of touch with their own needs, feeling they have sacrificed themselves for the good of others. This is also where you see Fi-ers withdrawing from other people & basically displaying a "bad attitude". Not to say that either cannot choose a different element to sacrifice, but they will often feel worse if they do, or it's harder to do because its unnatural . In many, many situations, neither is forced to totally compromise, and a mature Feeling type will utilize their P function to keep these compromises in perspective. That's where the big picture (often Ns) or realistic view (often Ss) comes into play.

    As far as feelings coming & going - that is NOT the case with Fi-doms. Not to say a feeling never changes or is never dismissed, but we're NOT talking emotion. All that changes in Fi-doms is the form a feeling appears in. The feeling itself is hold to be basic truth about humanity and right and wrong - really fundamental concepts like "love" and "peace". Everything is connected back to these feelings - now interpretations of the feeling may change, and these interpretations may vary wildly between Fi-ers. A Fi-dom may see some external mode as necessary to the fulfillment of the feeling judgment, then later retract it, realizing it was not accurate. It can take massive amounts of external proof to sway a Fi-dom's beliefs because of this. You need an extremely sound argument, and it needs to appeal to the core Fi principle and be supported by factual evidence (Te). Even then, I don't know if the very base feeling ever changes - I think they are just so broad & vague that they are viewed in a different light when related to the external - they take a different form, but are composed of the very same sentiment. Ne & Ni are very useful here (as mentioned above) - they allow the Fi-dom to perceive better, more accurate ways of meeting those basic ideas, so that the values & smaller ideas branching from them will adjust without too much pain. This touched on an inner turmoil that Fi-doms find themselves in a lot. New information has to be run through this value system & made to harmonize, and if it cannot be done, then some major examination has to take place which shuffles everything around, removes & adds parts, until it feels consistent again. I was going to use a tree metaphor involving diseased branches & cutting them off & sprouting new ones, with the trunk remaining intact, but this post is already ridiculously long-winded....

    Is that seen by Fi though as a kind of manipulative tactic, trying to force someone to act in a certain way? Is that seen as using dishonest means to get a good outcome? I find that if someone helps me see the world through their eyes, it gives me some pause and I stop and re-evaluate. It may help me to better see things from the point of view of the person they are advocating for, or I end up with is some sort of synthesis of both of our thinking, or else I develop with stronger reasons for thinking the way that I did in the first place because I've examined it further. Any of those three outcomes seem to me to be better than what I came up with alone in the first place.
    It seems manipulative if the motive is not PURE. The integrity of the motive is compromised when an additional reason is brought in to appeal to the other person. I'm not saying Fi-ers get totally hung up on purity of motive, it's just an explanation for why sometimes Fe seems manipulative to Fi, when Fe just sees themselves as reaching for win-win. I understand that you also refine your values through mirroring, or some kind of consensus. Fe finds reasons outside of itself, but Fi doesn't require that. I think I mentioned above how that Fe method IS appreciated when it's used to make an effort to understand Fi or to even appeal to the Fi value.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It sounds to me like Fi motives (my motives were good, and I didn't foresee that outcome) vs Fe outcome (this rotten outcome was preventable and I trusted you) might be what's at stake.
    This occurs more when Fi has lost perspective, just as Fe loss of perspective can mean demanding one method as the only acceptable form. They both are more willing to adapt to the other when they gain perspective & focus again on the core value. For instance, I've learned to accept the "Fe ways" by seeing the adaption as only a minor compromise in the moment, but still maintaining the integrity of my value in the long-term. Concerning emotion, that can mean putting on a friendly face when I don't feel that way, because in the long-run, I am a friendly person & don't want to be judged based on one fleeting moment of crabbiness.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #187
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    One thought. I think in this case, you're probably just making things worse on the friendship by giving your reasoning and trying to point out her blame in the situation. It makes it look like you don't really get why what you did was wrong. For an exaggerated example, think of a husband that cheats then tells his wife that he was drunk and the other chick was coming on to him, and he's never cheated before and won't again, so she should just forgive him and move on. It's discounting her feelings of betrayal. She feels like you betrayed her confidence, and instead of being sorry, you're being sorry with a whole bunch of qualifiers. So it sounds like you don't really get that what you did was wrong. Which is and would be a problem for me, if a friend didn't get it. I know it's confusing, but I really think this is an instance where you should take one for the team. There are probably times when she weighs the importance of her feelings against the importance of maintaining your friendship, too, but doesn't tell you.

    Btw, this is in no way supposed to sound scolding or anything--it's only and solely meant to provide the Fe perspective. :-D
    haha no i understand. thank you, it's what i asked for... i know the Fi side quite well already myself, but i needed the Fe side i see what you mean, and this sheds some light on why others in my past have told me i don't own up to things and always try to excuse my way out of things. for me, i've always tried to explain my motives, because motives seem of paramount importance to me. understanding how others can see it differently is very helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Both on-line and IRL it seems to me like an NTJ can speak to me pretty bluntly without upsetting me (usually, ofc not 100% of the time) ...IRL to me they feel..."still"...like they have this still solidity about them so even when they disagree with me it's easier for me to understand their explanation as to why. A lot of times with NTPs I pick up on the Fe agenda in ENTPs, or the hyper-vigilence of Ti precision in INTPs. It's like something is lost in translation, and it's very real.
    me too.


    Really any type can be an asshole, including my fellow ENFPs (then again, we have tert Te...)


    ENFPs and ENTPs are assholes in really different ways. ENTPs will slowly and surely piss you off, while ENFP will just blow up and inform you of how you're the scum of the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Here's the question, though. If the emphasis is always on the individual, how is a consensus ever reached? That's what always confuses me about Fi. Whose opinion is the most important? It's seemingly impossible to have everyone equally happy and validated.
    everyone's is. that's the key of it. each and every opinion is of the same importance.

    we should usually be able to come to a conclusion that works for almost all of us in some way, if we try. sometimes that means giving certain concessions to some people and different ones to others. Fe says let's have a family meal, Fi says let's each have our own thing but eat together. obviously both have their good points and drawbacks.

    of course in reality this doesn't always work out perfectly, and we have to balance.

    Example: The simulatedworld thing. You (general you) can say that he should be allowed to express himself because he has some solid ideas, and just because he's weak in some areas, that shouldn't mean he should be silenced. But then you have an entire other group of people that have been offended by things he's said and believe that it diminishes their forum experience to have the increased personal attacks and disharmony that results from ignoring forum rules. So who should win out? Obviously in a situation like that, not everyone can be validated. You can hear all the voices, but ultimately, doesn't a decision have to be made that is best for the overall harmony and ease of use of this forum?
    but then, that's why we have forum rules. if he's breaking rules, then he goes. if not, he stays, and individuals can ignore his posts at will.

  8. #188
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What I am getting at though, is that you would recognize Fi. I don't think that is true. I don't feel "known", I don't feel a reaching out where I can be an individual within Fe. Fe strives more to make me fit, than to fit me in. And, that's a pretty expedient way of dealing with folks in order to get stuff done.

    I've personally asked- more than a couple of times in this thread- for someone to specifically describe how Fe stifles their Fi, and I'm not the only one who's posed that question. A lot of us actually do our best to understand how to best acknowledge and allow room for it. My point: not all Fe strives to make you more fit, to make you fit in.


    It means you aren't seeing what's in the cave, to use Usehername's metaphor earlier. You see what is only visible, not the depth, and therefore cannot formulate the most effective Fe rules from what you cannot see. So therefore, how can Fe truly encapsulate Fi?
    First of all, it's not like anyone is entirely Fi or Fe- there's always some firsthand experience of the other polarity in a person to witness if they're willing to reflect on it long enough. Secondly, I already said- for obvious reasons- Fe cannot encapsulate Fi in it's entirety. Just like Te will never be able to encapsulate Ti in it's entirety; but I've known a Te dom who has his moments of being very receptive to Ti insight and those moments are awesome.

    That's why I don't think Fe is an amalgamation of Fi. If it was, I would feel like I could be "known" inside that warm and harmonious bubble. Truly, that is a rare thing.
    Would it make you feel better if I said it was an amalgamation of inferior Fi and Ti? Is it that you feel like it's soiling Fi somehow to claim it's a goal to incorporate Fi values into Fe rules? There are different gradations of Fi, and I'm not claiming someone who falls on the Fe end of the spectrum will ever experience OMFG 11one1 Fi!!!
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ENFPs and ENTPs are assholes in really different ways. ENTPs will slowly and surely piss you off, while ENFP will just blow up and inform you of how you're the scum of the earth.
    Yeah, I'm at my worst when I have an emotional meltdown suddenly and turn into some big storm of feelings or lash out with Te, and I have the same judgement toward other ENFPs...like "omg they're being ridiculous and irrational right now" ....but I identify with it. I see myself in it. Actually, I admit I'm less likely to judge ENFP Te lashouts, though. I'm more judgemental of my own Fi gone horribly awry and of my brethren's same weakness. But even when I judge it I identify with it on some level, and that's key.

    With ENTPs (most commonly with ENTP males) I feel like they're constantly poking me with a stick and snickering about it, acting like an especially smart, precocious, but immature boy who I just can't win with, no matter what I say.

    I have less problems with the ENTP ladies, somehow, but I still can get into more minor Ti/Fe conflicts with them during arguments or heated discussions.

  10. #190
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hey Z Buck,

    Correct me if I'm wrong - I seem to feel that you're getting a little frustrated with me. I hear you saying that although you recognize Fe is not equal in depth to Fi, that an intelligent, caring, mature Fe user is, of course, going to make the effort to try to understand everyone as best they can. And I appreciate that, very much. Your presence here has brought me to some new insights, and I am very excited about that. Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I've personally asked- more than a couple of times in this thread- for someone to specifically describe how Fe stifles their Fi, and I'm not the only one who's posed that question. A lot of us actually do our best to understand how to best acknowledge and allow room for it.
    Well, I guess I could give personal examples if that would be helpful. Would it? But it would be more specific than general, and as OA pointed out in her epic post above, will always tend to sound more negative than positive, which will likely raise hackles. Think on that; let me know what I could share to facilitate this understanding.

    First of all, it's not like anyone is entirely Fi or Fe- there's always some firsthand experience of the other polarity in a person to witness if they're willing to reflect on it long enough. Secondly, I already said- for obvious reasons- Fe cannot encapsulate Fi in it's entirety. Just like Te will never be able to encapsulate Ti in it's entirety; but I've known a Te dom who has his moments of being very receptive to Ti insight and those moments are awesome.
    Agreed.

    Would it make you feel better if I said it was an amalgamation of inferior Fi and Ti? Is it that you feel like it's soiling Fi somehow to claim it's a goal to incorporate Fi values into Fe rules? There are different gradations of Fi, and I'm not claiming someone who falls on the Fe end of the spectrum will ever experience OMFG 11one1 Fi!!!
    soiling Fi, no ... I think that yes, Fe can interweave and originate from Fi; I'm not saying that they aren't interconnected in fabulous ways, like a mobius strip if you will. I'm just trying to say that I just don't think we wear the same pair of glasses. That Fi is just harder to see and pry out. I don't think Fe can always get in there, and indeed, sometimes can't even be bothered, not for lack of care, but for lack of knowing there was further to go.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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