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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    haha, well, not to duck out of responsibility, but you Ni users have a leg up on that one. which one of the 100,000 possibilities that i see am i supposed to prevent? lol!
    Ne would also be very useful in prevention since it builds on preexisting ideas and then seeks to branch from there.
    So the original idea is "prevention" Now, just imagine the possibilities
    Or the original idea could be.. "what could go wrong?" ha ha!!.. SO the playing field is pretty even I would think.

    But in direct relation to what I meant. I meant conflict avoidance is everyone's responsibility.
    Fe is not crying after the fact, "I trusted you, this was avoidable".
    It would be avoidable if trust existed in the 1st place.
    And what is the Fe user doing then.. giving away all their power??

    I am seriously confused.. as usual..

    EDIT: thinking about it.. I can just see myself doing exactly that very recently.

    I went on about me being foolish for trusting someone and how it could have been avoided if the person was just consistent.. and not really giving their "intentions" a second thought . So go figure.

  2. #172
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    oh, of course it reflected badly on her, but, while i have no desire to hurt her, i don't feel an extended obligation to protect her decisions either. we are each our own person and love her to death though i do, i'm not her whipping boy. it didn't look great for me when i got exposed as part of the chain either, but i didn't flip out on the person i told. why should i? it was my own doing, not hers. she's someone i confide in because i enjoy confiding in things with her, not a repository for my secrets or a shield to protect myself. when i asked her to keep it confidential i expected her to, but if i told her, i should have forseen that she might do the same thing too. we are human. good friends, but human.



    yeah. i get this. i guess that it also hurts me that despite all the other secrets i've kept for her, she would consider breaking off our friendship based a single one. we're friends, not the FBI.

    btw thanks for your help
    One thought. I think in this case, you're probably just making things worse on the friendship by giving your reasoning and trying to point out her blame in the situation. It makes it look like you don't really get why what you did was wrong. For an exaggerated example, think of a husband that cheats then tells his wife that he was drunk and the other chick was coming on to him, and he's never cheated before and won't again, so she should just forgive him and move on. It's discounting her feelings of betrayal. She feels like you betrayed her confidence, and instead of being sorry, you're being sorry with a whole bunch of qualifiers. So it sounds like you don't really get that what you did was wrong. Which is and would be a problem for me, if a friend didn't get it. I know it's confusing, but I really think this is an instance where you should take one for the team. There are probably times when she weighs the importance of her feelings against the importance of maintaining your friendship, too, but doesn't tell you.

    Btw, this is in no way supposed to sound scolding or anything--it's only and solely meant to provide the Fe perspective. :-D
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  3. #173
    Senior Member tortoise's Avatar
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    She had red red red hair and deepest blue eyes.

  4. #174
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I second Tallulah on that.

  5. #175
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    This is very true in the corporate world. The extroverted functions are able to express/assert themselves on others better than the introverted functions. At least Te/Fe/Se.. I'm not really convinced Ne has much leeway socially- unless there's some practicality involved in an Ne-user's ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I think it's interesting how similar the Fe/Fi conflict is with the Te/Ti conflict.
    Te tends to be so sure of its conclusions that it seems less of a need to go through the meticulous and never-ending analysis process Ti often goes through.
    I thought your comments were very interesting Mondo. You're right that the corporate world places a much higher value on Te/Fe/Se than Ti/Fi/Se. These things are rewarded and the ROI is usually tangible. But the introverted functions do have value, even if they don't fit into corporate America's PnL spreadsheets.

    And, the more I think about it, the more I'm amazed at the similarities between Fe/Fi conflict with Te/Ti conflict.

    I can see, from an evolutionary perspective, why Te and Fe would be important. Sometimes, you need to just get sh*t done. (Or in the case of Fe, sometimes people need to just got shut up and get along.)

    But there's also an evolutionary advantage to the "meticulous and never-ending [analytical] process" that Fi and Ti are so good at.... Much more precise. And, much more subtle.

    Wow! There is so much for me to process. This thread is truly amazing. Thanks everyone for their input.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #176
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I thought your comments were very interesting Mondo. You're right that the corporate world places a much higher value on Te/Fe/Se than Ti/Fi/Se. These things are rewarded and the ROI is usually tangible. But the introverted functions do have value, even if they don't fit into corporate America's PnL spreadsheets.

    And, the more I think about it, the more I'm amazed at the similarities between Fe/Fi conflict with Te/Ti conflict.

    I can see, from an evolutionary perspective, why Te and Fe would be important. Sometimes, you need to just get sh*t done. (Or in the case of Fe, sometimes people need to just got shut up and get along.)

    But there's also an evolutionary advantage to the "meticulous and never-ending [analytical] process" that Fi and Ti are so good at.... Much more precise. And, much more subtle.

    Wow! There is so much for me to process. This thread is truly amazing. Thanks everyone for their input.

    This is definitely how Te and Fe work in a dominant position, but I don't think they really behave like that when in the auxiliary. They can also be used in a more complimentary manner to a higher-level introverted function.

    ISFJs, for instance, are more concerned with keeping current social systems in place than making everybody happy or get along.

    On the Te side, an INTJ uses Te more as a filter for Ni nonsense than as a function for leading organizations as it would appear in a dominant role. It's more for fact-checking, and making sure my own ideas are realistic than making others go where I want them to go.

    I think the position of any function in the hierarchy of preferences has a big impact on how it actually manifests itself.
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  7. #177
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Or in the case of Fe, sometimes people need to just got shut up and get along.)
    .
    Again, not necessarily. Do you know how an INTJ will dismiss some perspectives with their Te when they (in their words) have already considered them? INFJ will often do the same. Although it may not seem that way. They will sit back and reexamine, and then offer up an idea that doesn't necessarily "get along" with the group, but directs with another spin that takes more things into account and tries to get along at the same time. Believe it or not, INTJs do the same thing, and try to incorporate as much as they can. Phil Jackson (Lakers coach) comes to mind. Instead of following common wisdom that would call Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant individualistic ballhogs, and try to make them conform to typical team playbooks that suppressed their individual skills, he saw their strengths for what they were and built playbooks that incorporated their need to have the ball - while at the same time, had them in plays that opened up their court vision, and made it impossible for them to ignore their teammates (it's call the triangle offense, if you want to look it up). Eh, I'm not explaining it well..needless to say, he's a genius. And my point is that Ni isn't so closeminded in either INJ's case. An INFJ doesn't just become a "Yes" man/woman to whoever's calling the shots, and "Fe's" others to join along. They step out of it, and offer a Ni point of view that tries it's best to accomodate whatever/whoever may be left out. I keep trying to drive the point home that they are NF idealists, no different than Ne Fi, just in a different way. Where Ne sees "oneness" everywhere, Ni sees multiple perspectives, and Fe wants to pick the best one that makes people happy. Not the typical view that is "groupthink" and necessarily suppresses the individual.

  8. #178
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is how I would say it too, but I would propose that it's not even a conscious assumption for her -- it IS reality, and doing things that fly in the face of her reality not only don't make sense but seem insane. The alternate pathway you offer probably doesn't even look reasonable or trustworthy, it flies in the face of what she sees as real, and to accept it would be an insane act of faith.

    That's what I mean by "unconscious frame of reference," she doesn't even know or accept it's one of many, it's simply "reality."

    One typical conflict here is in deciding what is "fake harmony" vs "honest disagreement." I'm thinking what is fake to one seems real to another; and what seems honest to another seems unnecessarily disruptive to another.

    I don't disagree that sometimes the harmony IS fake; but I also think sometimes the "honesty" is inappropriate. The only way I've been able to determine which it is (for me, and again I know I'm just one individual trying to do the best she can to be fair and honest with people) is to look at my long-term goal in a situation, and seeing which behavior contributes more to reaching that goal. Another approach is to judge my own motivations: If I realize I've done things the "nice way" because I'm being a coward, then I need to change what I'm doing; likewise, if I'm "honest" out of personal convenience without giving a shit about the other person and their views and end up making her life unnecessarily hard for my own benefit when I had other reasonable options, then I've erred as well.
    @bold: that’s really how I see it too. For the most part I mirror other people’s capacity for “honesty”. I’m personally more comfortable on the honest/inappropriate end of the spectrum, but I’ll dish out the “fake harmony” if that’s the kind of person I’m talking to. And I can see how it’s perceived as being fake, though that does seem like a narrow-minded and somewhat egocentric view to me. Like Jennifer said above- the “fake harmony” is genuine reality to some people; and I don’t think communicating to them in their own language is any more fake than communicating to someone in Italian while visiting Italy (and it does seem egocentric to me to go to another country and expect them to speak to you in your native tongue). The words may all be in English, but the “honesty” is still definitely lost in translation (it becomes “inappropriate”).


    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    (2.) How conscious are you of your personal priorities (beyond the collective moral standards)?
    2# I know what's important to me and to you, and if I don't, I will find out.
    I don't think Fe is flat out rule follower, I think a few people have mentioned that each rule or moral standard has been evaluated and distilled.
    There is more personal attachment than people seem to realize.
    Fe isn't just about knowing what makes everybody feel good and sticking to it. It about reacting to the mood and environment around you.. Fe is sensitive to the moods of others and changes in the environment. Most attempts at bringing harmony to a situation are actually selfish in motivation.
    OMG TOTALLY. This has got to be one of my biggest pet peeves, and why this topic makes me so hot under the collar. I may take outside values into account- but at the end of the day- what I stick to is ALWAYS the stuff that I’ve processed through Ti (and/or whatever Fi I may have) and which makes the most sense to me. I don’t choose Fe rules arbitrarily, I’m as mindful as I know how to be in choosing which ones serve a purpose and where/when variations must be applied.

    This is why I agree with the sentiment Tallulah shared about Fe being an amalgamation of Fi values- that’s what I strive for, a Fe that is an amalgamation of Fi values, a set of rules that steps on other people’s toes as little as possible. At the same time, I can relate to why Peacebaby disagreed; it’s a bold claim to make. It’s not something we can decide is true about ourselves really, it’s just self-evident and we either present it or we don’t. I think it’s what separates the people with overzealous extraverted judging functions (which these Fe/Fi debates seem to really be about) from those whose extraverted judging functions don’t feel oppressive to others. There are plenty of Fe/Te doms who don’t fall into the trap of inadvertently bullying/discounting the feelings of other people, in the way Te and Fe are negatively stereotyped- in spite of having a dominant Je function.

    I’m not sure that^ makes sense, so anyone who thinks they can expound on it in a way that makes it clearer, I’d welcome it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #179
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    If Fe was purely an amalgamation of Fi values, then you would "know" what Fi is talking about, no, even if you disagreed with it? When you saw Fi you would recognize an Fi value and, presumably, if you create your rules from Fi, this amalgamation, this bubble of Fe should be widening all throughout your life with every Fi user you meet. Theoretically, it would exceed any individual Fi user's depth and should thus be so broad in scope to be practically universal in application.

    Yet, I will posit: this does not happen for most Fe users; actually none I know either. I think most people formulate an Fe bubble throughout the formative years and a set of "rules" from that, and that set of rules becomes more static; something that could be so flexible, becomes far more rigid and controlling. "This is right, this is not" ... new situations and people can appear to be disrupting an implicitly agreed upon harmony that has guided an Fe user up to this point in their own life.

    In this scenario, of Fe being a bubble that expands, the individual's voice, the voice of Fi, is nothing to avoid, or fear, or need to control. It simply is more data to add to an ever-widening pool of experience.

    That's why I have to believe there's more depth to Fi than Fe "sees", because if Fe could see it, it would care, wouldn't it? As you point out above ZBuck? In order to foster more and more harmony within the group?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  10. #180
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    If Fe was purely an amalgamation of Fi values, then you would "know" what Fi is talking about, no, even if you disagreed with it? When you saw Fi you would recognize an Fi value and, presumably, if you create your rules from Fi, this amalgamation, this bubble of Fe should be widening all throughout your life with every Fi user you meet. Theoretically, it would exceed any individual Fi user's depth and should thus be so broad in scope to be practically universal in application.
    I didn't say the goal was to encapsulate the entirety of every sound Fi judgment that crosses my path, and I didn't say it was purely an amalgamation of Fi. For obvious reasons, Fe will never supercede Fi in depth. My point was simply that adding as much depth to a Fe judgment as possible is what seperates the intolerable Fe users from the thoughtful ones. The same goes for Te. There are some Te/Fe users that come across as too domineering and some that don't- it isn't about the extraverted function itself, it's about the mindfulness with which one uses it.

    In this scenario, of Fe being a bubble that expands, the individual's voice, the voice of Fi, is nothing to avoid, or fear, or need to control. It simply is more data to add to an ever-widening pool of experience.
    ^Yeah.

    That's why I have to believe there's more depth to Fi than Fe "sees", because if Fe could see it, it would care, wouldn't it? As you point out above ZBuck? In order to foster more and more harmony within the group?
    I'm not really sure I understand this part. I mean that's the whole point of expanding the Fe bubble- to foster more harmony: not in the imposed "fake harmony" sense, but in the sense of truly generating more authentic harmony.

    See- at it's best- Fe truly wants everyone to feel respected and it doesn't decide how to go about that task on it's own, it uses feedback from people on what actually makes them feel respected.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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