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  1. #161
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I guess I feel like at least with Te, the implicit idol Te serves is logic and pragmatism. And, this is a really good thing because it's a universal leveler. It cuts through the human foibles that go hand in hand with the subjectivity that comes with emotions and personal agendas. The goal is getting [it] done.... And getting [it] done in the most direct, efficient, and practical way possible.
    Actually, one of my beefs with Te-doms (especially ones like my ESTJ dad) is that they tend to place a big emphasis on authority and what's generally accepted. It's actually not level at all, since your arguments may be pitted against authority or a time-tested way of doing things (no matter how wrong). It can make for an exhausting, hugely uphill battle.

    While I agree it's not personal, it's not necessarily level, either.

  2. #162
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    So back to whether Fi is more black and white or more shades of gray, I think it's both. It just depends on whether the Fi user is in puzzle solving mode (shades of gray), or in puzzle has been solved mode (black and white).

    So in the case of my original 'Fi gone awry' example, I expended a great deal of mental energy working through all the ethical permutations of what Anita had done. (Ne supported by Fi.) This was when I was in puzzle-solving mode. I saw all the shades of gray, to the point where it was overwhelming. But once I concluded she was wrong to do what she did, the shades of gray became black and white. It almost was a relief to reach my conclusion, which in this case was that she was Wrong (with a capital W).

    I don't know if every Fi user feels this way, but this is definitely the way it feels to me.

    Or maybe it's just that the shades of gray are so overwhelming that I have to force a kind of order on them. Thus, in order to prevent me from drowning in the chaos of my Fi, I seek the black and white puzzle answer like a life preserver.

    I hope this makes sense to someone other than myself. It's really hard for me to articulate my Fi.
    Okay this totally just caught my eye. I haven’t caught up in the thread yet- but I want to post this. I think this is probably EXACTLY the equivalent of what we go through with Ti. If something has just been introduced to us, and we haven’t had the chance to mull it over- we can’t defend it or talk about it. We** need time to let ideas take shape before extraverting them- they can’t be articulated right away. And so often, dealing with someone who’s heavy on Te- it’s nothing short of masochistic to choose to keep dealing with the person.

    I’m just going to flat out say it: this is EXACTLY the way the beginning of the doorslam thread reads. “THINK THIS! IT'S THE HEALTHIEST MOST APPROPRIATE CONCLUSION TO THINK!” So- if you relate that to your own Fi puzzle-solving condition of something being completely in a state of unresolved greys and having Fe come along “THIS SHOULD BE YOUR VALUE! IT’S THE HEALTHIEST MOST APPROPRIATE VALUE TO HAVE!” It’s like having a stadium blow-horn going off inches from your face- and the more introverted someone’s function is, the more sensitive their metaphorical hearing. Do you see how it got the “F#ck you” reaction that it did? Fe/Ti have two courses of action available as an immediate response: to say “you shouldn’t be so bossy” or to retreat, get squirrely and doorslam if necessary.

    **By "we" here, I mean I think it applies to a great many INFJs, and possibly ENFJs as well (though I'm not sure about ENFJ).




    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I appreciate you saying this and actually this helps me understand a bit what sometimes seems like a perplexing silence on the part of INFJs during such discussions. I was typing this post while you posted yours. But if we go back to the analogy of how Fi and Ti have some things in common in that they are hard to articulate and need time to reflect, I completely get what you're saying.
    Okay, crap, I hadn't even read to the end. I just got all excited and posted.

    *goes to finish catching up on thread before posting anything else*
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #163
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, but you really kinda (from my perspective) need to accept that it did reflect badly on her, because you're the link the thing got traced back to.
    oh, of course it reflected badly on her, but, while i have no desire to hurt her, i don't feel an extended obligation to protect her from her decisions either. we are each our own person and love her to death though i do, i'm not her personal whipping boy. it didn't look great for me when i got exposed as part of the chain either, but i didn't flip out on the person i told. why should i? it was my own doing, not hers. she's someone i confide in because i enjoy confiding in things with her, not a repository for my secrets or a scapegoat for when i screw up. when i asked her to keep it confidential i expected her to, but if i told her, i should have forseen that she might do the same thing too. i don't mind taking public crap for my bff - i'll defend her when others are being less than kind - but between us personally, i have trouble with being expected to uphold a standard that she herself broke. i expect friends to be more lenient with one another, not less.

    If my friend had told me the secret, I'd have made sure not to say anything because I would be hyper-aware that if it got traced back to me, my friend would know I betrayed her confidence. Even if I heard the mentor talking about it to others. My obligation is not to the information, it's to the friend.
    yeah. i get this. i was wrong in this way. i guess that it also hurts me that despite all the other secrets i've kept for her, she would consider breaking off our friendship based a single one. we're friends, not the FBI.

    btw thanks for your help

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It sounds to me like Fi motives (my motives were good, and I didn't foresee that outcome) vs Fe outcome (this rotten outcome was preventable and I trusted you) might be what's at stake.
    But if you trusted the person.. wouldn't you see their good intent??
    And if you saw their good intent then wouldn't the whole situation have then been avoidable?

    I don't know, maybe it's just the wording? But to my interpretation that makes Fe come across as very self righteous and kind of walks right into what the Fi user has been saying all along.

    Prevention is everybody's business.

  5. #165
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Seymour said it better than I could have. Educational systems are almost exclusively run by STJs. If the higher up admin varies, it would usually be someone like an ENTJ at the top. These are very Te heavy and do not allow for any Ti style theories of change, unless they have already been proven many times over and have come to be generally accepted.

    Those who speak out against the accepted way of doing things in an organization often suffer similar consequences to Fi people interacting in a non-Fe approved manner. Ti users usually learn to silence themselves complete and learn to operate within the system, try to develop an entirely new system on their own, or they suffer the consequences of being the out there person who is always putting a spoke in the wheel of how daily business is carried out. While you may not be socially shunned, it can affect your ability to be promoted, having your ideas taken seriously or living with lower job satisfaction.

    Being a Ti user has some very serious career implications, just as Fi users speaking openly does. I would argue that in both cases, the extroverted function tends to discriminate against introverted function users in very tangible ways.

    In both cases the introverted function is too impractical and the extroverted function is too pragmatic. There need to be a balance of input from both for the optimum solutions to be found.

  6. #166
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wow this thread moves too fast! I need to learn to use the quote button! Sorry.

  7. #167
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Being a Ti user has some very serious career implications, just as Fi users speaking openly does. I would argue that in both cases, the extroverted function tends to discriminate against introverted function users in very tangible ways.
    This is very true in the corporate world. The extroverted functions are able to express/assert themselves on others better than the introverted functions. At least Te/Fe/Se.. I'm not really convinced Ne has much leeway socially- unless there's some practicality involved in an Ne-user's ideas.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  8. #168
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you realize, EW, that you're doing the same thing with Te that we do with Fe? Just as it seems to be objective to us and the "right" way to do things, you think that your use of Te is serving logic exclusively, when it is just as subjective as Fe is to Fi. You've just told us that your way is the only way, the logical way, just as we tell you that Fe is the only practical, normal way of interaction and anything else is subjective and non-productive.

    I was discussing something with Z Buck the other day. When I was a kid, I had severe allergies to certain animals. My cousins thought that I was being prissy and difficult when in fact my eyes were swollen shut and I was gasping for breath. However, I find myself struggling to understand other people who are allergic to other kinds of things like perfume or certain foods (I'm not talking life-threatening). It feels like they are just looking for attention, even though I intellectually do understand it's a very real problem and one that they can't help and that hampers their existence considerably because I've experienced it. It just feels different though when it's not me and it's a different allergy.

    I think what we're looking at is a little bit similar.
    I was just thinking to myself about the similarities between Fe and Te hegemony over their introverted cousins.

    So this makes me see a whole other layer of subtleties here. For example, it seems like Fe is prone to discount any argument that doesn't acknowledge the goal as Fe sees it... just in the same way that Te does.

    I would also say that while Fe and Te are not free of bias, they are inherently more objective than their introverted cousins. So yes, this Fi user is saying that, in general, Fe is more objective than Fi. By the same token Te is, in general, more objective than Ti.

    But objectivity is NOT always the ideal. In other words, this externalized view of things / objectivity will only take you so far.

    So if I were to go back to the analogy of the Fi being a lot like Ti in the sense that they are both introverted, hard to articulate, need time to reflect, and are more subjective than their extraverted cousins, some interesting thoughts come to mind:

    #1 - If Te and Fe are more objective than Ti and Fi, then Ti and Fi shouldn't try to argue that they are equally objective when compared with Te and Fe. In other words, let's be upfront that Ti and Fi are more subjective. This isn't a bad thing... or a weakness... as long as you don't measure goodness and strength only by Te/Fe standards. Ti and Fi can tap into things that Fe and Te cannot. And in these arenas, they kick Te's and Fe's *ss. I feel like part of Fe and Fi getting along (and Te and Ti, too) is everyone acknowledging that there are two sets of standards here... and both are equally valid... and they are both different. Everyone needs to quit trying to make one live up to the standards of the other. See #2 for more about this.

    #2 - Both Te/Fe users and Ti/Fi users need to understand that what seems true and authentic for them, does NOT seem true and authentic for the other. So instead of trying to tell the other they've got it all wrong, maybe they ought to try to learn to communicate with the other in a manner the other understands. For example, if you are a Ti user and you want to point out to a Te user that they are not validating or acknowledging your Ti position, then perhaps using some straightforward logical arguments is the best approach.

    Ti User: "You know everyone has something to offer don't they? And also everyone has a subjective reality. I'm not disagreeing with your logic regarding ABC. But that doesn't mean there is not validity in my what I'm saying either. And, it feels like you're not willing to acknowledge that."

    Te User: "I see what you're saying. You're right. And, of course, how you see things is important to me. While the solution I proposed is probably the quickest way to a solution, what you're saying is logically correct and my solution doesn't take this into account.

    ^^^^^
    To me the above exchange is good because it's not pandering to either side. It's acknowledging what each function does best. (BTW, let me be upfront that I need to clean up above exchange here. In other words, I'm still a little weak in my ability to articulate what Ti is good at.)

    The analogy would also hold true for a conversation between and Fe and Fi user.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #169
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Prevention is everybody's business.
    haha, well, not to duck out of responsibility, but you Ni users have a leg up on that one. which one of the 100,000 possibilities that i see am i supposed to prevent? lol!

  10. #170
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I think it's interesting how similar the Fe/Fi conflict is with the Te/Ti conflict.
    Te tends to be so sure of its conclusions that it seems less of a need to go through the meticulous and never-ending analysis process Ti often goes through.
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