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  1. #151
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I think my Fe in overdrive can manifest as snark. I generally try to engage with people honestly and try to hear their perspectives, even if I don't care for what they're saying. But once they ignore the social construct completely and say something in a manner that directly rubs me the wrong way, or that has gotten us off track and the whole group riled up, I feel less inclined to keep the claws retracted. It's kind of a feeling of, "Okay, if you don't care, I don't care."
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    [This] paragraph of Tallulah's is exactly what you saw cafe and I doing in the INFJ Common Issues thread. We felt like EW was ignoring the social constructs. As a result, we felt less need to be protective of her feelings, as the message obviously wasn't getting through. This is interesting to consider in regards to Te doing the same when the shoe's on the other foot.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ no it's not quite the same though ... Te will ignore but Fe will shun, it's different somehow. You risk more battling with an Fe user. You risk being shut out of their lives. It feels more dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, you can argue with a Te user and you don't generally risk being shut out of their lives for disagreeing with them. Fe takes exception to dissension in a different personal space. It does take it personal. Te will say, "No shit, you were right. Huh!" And then move on somehow, more easily or readily.
    Hmmmm. Very interesting..... This rings true to me.

    I guess I feel like at least with Te, the implicit idol Te serves is logic and pragmatism. And, this is a really good thing because it's a universal leveler. It cuts through the human foibles that go hand in hand with the subjectivity that comes with emotions and personal agendas. The goal is getting [it] done.... And getting [it] done in the most direct, efficient, and practical way possible.

    Perhaps this is why I am so open to changing my behavior and opinions if someone can logically argue that they are wrong. And, I think this is a Te strength: re-examining one's reasoning based on the facts at hand and a better logical argument if one is presented. Because I'm not trying to protect my agenda. I'm looking outside myself to see if my agenda fits getting to wherever I'm wanting to get to.

    But from my side of the table, it seems like the Fe users that find my posts sometimes off putting, are looking for some validation of their expressed opinions. And, they feel like I'm not giving it to them.

    More than that, because I don't give them this validation, they see me re-arguing my point in response to their posts as an overt rejection of what they had to say.... And, they are sort of right.

    If I'm completely honest with myself (And, I'm not saying this to upset anyone, nor do I mean I haven't considered what you've had to say) I'm going to go where the logic leads me, regardless of my personal feelings of filial loyalty to you.

    If you want me to change my mind which I'm more than willing to do, then you should know I'm looking for straightforward, logical arguments about why my reasoning is wrong. When I don't hear a convincing, logically-based argument, then I'm just plowing forward with what I believe is the self-evident logic of my position.

    Additionally, if I respond with a logical argument about why I disagree with you, it's not because I'm trying to embarrass or ignore you. In fact, the very fact that I'm laying out a logical argument for you means I have indeed listened to you and am trying to show you the utmost respect... This is a sign of respect from me because I assume that like me, you hold logical, straightforward arguments in the highest esteem and will tailor you approach if you see the logic in what I'm saying.

    This is not always the case. :eek:

    Again, please no one be offended by my candor regarding my internal process. I felt it important to share what's going on with me to shed some light on this miscommunication I seem to keep having with some Fe / Ti users.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, you can argue with a Te user and you don't generally risk being shut out of their lives for disagreeing with them.

    Fe takes exception to dissention in a different personal space. It does take it personal. Te will say, no shit, you were right. Huh! And then move on somehow, more easily or readily.

    I am not sure why, just feeling this out myself.
    Well I can't argue with bold part.. except I have only seen it in extreme cases.
    I have my suspicions that a door slam has as much to do with the slammer not wanting to face themselves as much as it has to do with cutting the other person off.
    But this is an unhealthy Fe user.. and an unhealthy Fe user shadows into unhealthy Fi from what I have read on the subject, and even experienced it in myself.

    So when when Fi and Fe are unhealthy I think they must look a lot like each other, and well you know what they say about what we dislike in others is often like looking a mirror?

    Sometimes a good cliche is all you really need.

  3. #153
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    just a thought - sometimes, stuff like that seems condescending. someone bowing down from a place of privilege - playing a champion for the cause - may strike the recipient as the ultimate in condescension because you are making a show of it. if you were to go in private to the street and dump your change out on it later, i'm sure the woman would appreciate it; if a panamanian leader were speaking up, i'm sure the panamanian would be more enthused. but the way it stands, it sounds like, good intentions aside, you are publicly making yourself out to be a savior when you're not even 100% sure of what that woman - or panama - wants.
    It was condescending, I agree. Everyone involved was giving in to their worst side, except me. In that situation, I mean. Except, I wasn't making a show of it so much as rebuking what was happening... and letting it be known to everyone involved. It's an odd world where snickering and teasing homeless people is justified while my behavior is the self serving one. I'm not a saint, but my heart went out to her. It was me stopping and considering how crappy her existence really was. That's it. Same goes for Che.. he was genuinely trying to help. He wasn't much for shows either. His last words were: “I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man.”

  4. #154
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Do you realize, EW, that you're doing the same thing with Te that we do with Fe? Just as it seems to be objective to us and the "right" way to do things, you think that your use of Te is serving logic exclusively, when it is just as subjective as Fe is to Fi. You've just told us that your way is the only way, the logical way, just as we tell you that Fe is the only practical, normal way of interaction and anything else is subjective and non-productive.

    I was discussing something with Z Buck the other day. When I was a kid, I had severe allergies to certain animals. My cousins thought that I was being prissy and difficult when in fact my eyes were swollen shut and I was gasping for breath. However, I find myself struggling to understand other people who are allergic to other kinds of things like perfume or certain foods (I'm not talking life-threatening). It feels like they are just looking for attention, even though I intellectually do understand it's a very real problem and one that they can't help and that hampers their existence considerably because I've experienced it. It just feels different though when it's not me and it's a different allergy.

    I think what we're looking at is a little bit similar.

  5. #155
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It was condescending, I agree. Everyone involved was giving in to their worst side, except me. In that situation, I mean. Except, I wasn't making a show of it so much as rebuking what was happening... and letting it be known to everyone involved. It's an odd world where snickering and teasing homeless people is justified while my behavior is the self serving one. I'm not a saint, but my heart went out to her. It was me stopping and considering how crappy her existence really was. That's it. Same goes for Che.. he was genuinely trying to help. He wasn't much for shows either. His last words were: “I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man.”
    of course, i understand how you feel internally. but i meant to show how it could have been perceived externally, without anyone else feeling what you felt or going through your thought processes. it could have been perceived as "i am better than all of you" (which - i would agree that you were acting better than the other students) by the students - and she may have seen it like oh great, some little privileged asshole here to save the day by giving me $3.

  6. #156
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    so instead of Fe-gone-awry, can i ask Fe opinions on this situation?

    [...story...]

    is there something here i'm not seeing? :/
    I think what you're not seeing is that she told you because you're her BFF, and that meant she trusted that it wouldn't go any further. Your friend shouldn't have told you, either, but she wasn't telling someone she thought would tell. It's kind of like when you're told a secret, but you tell your spouse, because you know your spouse is loyal to you. It's not the same as telling an acquaintance or a co-worker.

    No, your friend shouldn't have told you if she was sworn to secrecy. But she thought she could trust you not to blab due to your relationship.

    What shouldn't come into play in the thought process is the fact that the mentor shouldn't have told your friend, blahblahblah. Or that the mentor told someone else. This is a matter between you and your friend. That's the issue at stake. You're trying to see it in terms of morals, and your friend is seeing it in terms of friendship.
    Something Witty

  7. #157
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you realize, EW, that you're doing the same thing with Te that we do with Fe? Just as it seems to be objective to us and the "right" way to do things, you think that your use of Te is serving logic exclusively, when it is just as subjective as Fe is to Fi.

    Sometimes the closer we get to understanding, the farther away attaining that lofty goal seems. But we do at least get closer.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #158
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    You're trying to see it in terms of morals, and your friend is seeing it in terms of friendship.
    that is a very, very good way of putting it.

    i feel like maybe we're like links in a bad chain, and she's looking at me and saying i linked from her, which was wrong regardless of anything else going on. but i'm having trouble not seeing the whole chain, and pointing out that if she never linked first, i wouldn't have had the opportunity to link on afterwards. i feel like she's seeing things in a vacuum, while she feels like i don't care.

    it's so odd to me because while i have certainly done a shitty thing or two in the past, there was no intention here of hurting her, so to me it just feels like a dumb and unfortunate mistake. that i should apologize for, certainly, but not the kind of material friendships are destroyed over. yet me having no intention of hurting her doesn't seem to matter to her, and i don't understand that.

  9. #159
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    It sounds to me like Fi motives (my motives were good, and I didn't foresee that outcome) vs Fe outcome (this rotten outcome was preventable and I trusted you) might be what's at stake.

  10. #160
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    that is a very, very good way of putting it.

    i feel like maybe we're like links in a bad chain, and she's looking at me and saying i linked from her, which was wrong regardless of anything else going on. but i'm having trouble not seeing the whole chain, and pointing out that if she never linked first, i wouldn't have had the opportunity to link on afterwards. i feel like she's seeing things in a vacuum, while she feels like i don't care.


    it's so odd to me because while i have certainly done a shitty thing or two in the past, there was no intention here of hurting her, so to me it just feels like a dumb and unfortunate mistake. yet me having no intention of hurting her doesn't seem to matter to her, and i don't understand that.
    Yeah, but you really kinda (from my perspective) need to accept that it did reflect badly on her, because you're the link the thing got traced back to. Yes, she was a link, too, but you were supposed to be the end of the chain. Period. When you told and it got back to the original link, it exposed the whole chain. Should anyone have told in the first place? Probably not. But your friend wouldn't have told you if she didn't think she could trust you not to talk to people outside the original chain.

    If my friend had told me the secret, I'd have made sure not to say anything because I would be hyper-aware that if it got traced back to me, my friend would know I betrayed her confidence. Even if I heard the mentor talking about it to others. My obligation is not to the information, it's to the friend.
    Something Witty

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