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  1. #121
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    We haven't seen Satine on this thread yet. I'm looking forward to her input. I think she has a very good handle on Fe and Fi. This is a previous Satine post that is so on point regarding the Fe/Fi and Te/Ti part of the discussion... and is so well written that I felt it appropriate to repost here.

    Sometimes Fi is better to use in a particular situation than Fe. And sometimes it's the other way around. This post made a lot of Fe come into focus for me... because I understand my Te pretty well. I think she's right that Fe is very practical. But it should also be said that sometimes Fe pays a heavy price... too heavy... for its pragmatism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Fe is built to make things work, much like Te. It works with what it has. And, it's pragmatic, unlike Fi or Ti.

    Where Te will build on what it has in a logical way, geared towards getting things accomplished, done, organized and up and running, Fe will do the same, but with regards to people.

    That means that Fe is prone to work with what it has. People, in this case. And people, are rarely perfect. In fact, it's part of being human, to be flawed. It would make sense that Fe, in order to get the job done, to keep the group together, would not require utmost truth, much like Te, as long as it works. That means that Fe-users work with what they have: flawed people. And, to get those people to attain the goal that is beneficial to all of them, it would require a handling of those people which would give in the best results, the result that is beneficial to each individual in that group as well.

    In contrast, Fi seeks perhaps the ultimate truth in values, and morals and how a person should be. But in the process, gets so bogged down in 'doing things right', that often it's not obtainable in this flawed world. It's a nice ideal but...that's it. Same goes for Ti. You can iron out all the logical flaws but might just lack the means and methods to actually put them into practice. Te might find a 'dirty' way around that problem and get things working....what's more important? The theoretical truth? Or the fact that we're getting somehwere?

    Fe does what it does best. It gets people motivated to do the right thing, to make the best of who they are...despite the flaws, and it works around those flaws. If one of those flaws is that that particular person would have their heart torn out if you told them the absolute blunt truth, then that would be contra-productive towards the contribution that person is otherwise very much capable towards attaining the goal..towards being the best they can be. Yes..it is a problem, one that needs fixing and solving, but it's a problem for tomorrow. Today, there's another goal at stake, and that goal requires this person to be respected, warts and all, in order to get there, and so he should be, as he deserves to be, considering the merit he has in this goal, and maybe in many others. This merit earns him the respect of the group, and outweighs any flaws (such as not being able to bear the truth) when looking at the larger picture. And with that respect, comes the specific treatment that person requires.

    I'd say Fe-users are masters at seeing that.

    I'd personally instantly lose sight of the common goal and start this person on their journey to self-growth..which, if they're not ready for that, could take forever, meanwhile having everything that depended on this person break down. Not practical at all.
    Wow! I really love what Satine wrote here. Especially the bolded part. She really hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Fe's got it all over Fi on stuff like this. And, I've gone down the "lose sight of the common goal" rabbit hole more than once.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #122
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sorry, my bad. I used the New Posts list, so I'm not always aware of what forum I am in until I make the post.

    I think it's easier to discuss it from S (it accentuates the sides better), but you're right.



    Then what makes the difference? Obviously NT's draw a line at ANY F use and particular Fe -- one of the main reasons this forum even exists was an NF haven created in 2007 from a seed group from INTPc, where (N)F's were despised and treated like chattel. NTs, even if they have values, don't seem to appreciate F much... at least not until they see some value in it.
    Sorry for the confusion. I know NTs wouldn't necessarily see eye to eye with NF's on an F level. I just meant that NFJs and NTJs are somewhat similar because of Ni. Neither one is SFJ or STJ (not to point out the obvious). If one can appreciate an ENTJ, the same should apply to ENFJ. Their Fe, in and of itself, is not oppressive. If we keep it strictly on a Fe vs Fi level however, the discussion is bound to get lost on someone's hangups about their ESFJ mother.. and possibly project that kind of Fe on to an ENFJ. Personally, I happen to see a lot of good about ESFJ moms, but I know they're nothing like ENFJs either. So why discuss it here?

    Bah.. I sound like I'm trying to enforce a direction in the discussion in this very post (Not that I have the power to do that). Just a thought, that's all. I'm not upset or anything. I just see something going wrong here if we project our conceptions of functions on to completely different types. It could apply to even Te. Like Kalach said: "Poor downtrodden Te" I'm sure he has to take crap for his Te because of.. someone's ESTJ dad or something.

  3. #123
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    OK, I think it’s important to give some examples of when Fe doesn’t work. So I’ll share a few of my Esoteric Wench’s real life examples in which she ran up against Fe goin’ awry:

    When Fe Went Awry:

    A. An ENFJ friend once told me that as a young man if he decided someone had crossed a moral line he would go around to everyone this person knew and tell them what an awful person was the object of his scorn. He said this was pretty much his modus operandi when he was younger and more immature. Fe FAIL.

    B. I had a really unhealthy ENFJ, try to "destroy" me socially because he perceived I had wronged his best friend. I had never done anything to this ENFJ. Not even had a single conversation in over 15 years that transcended the level of schmoozing with him. What was my crime? I had given his best friend a bit of a dressing down. After what I assume was some normal complaining-about-a-chick-who-dissed-me conversations between this guy and the ENFJ, the ENFJ proceeded to go around maligning me to anyone who would listen. Some of the adjectives he used: "crazy, skank, nutso, to-be-avoided, etc." In other words, he consciously and pre-meditatedly conducted a whisper campaign to hurt my social standing. Sounds very 8th grade. Unfortunately, everyone involved was well over 35. I asked another ENFJ why any ENFJ would engage in such childish behavior. He said, "Well, Fe isn't just about being able to work a room. It's also about displays of personal loyalty." That may be, but I've still gotta characterize this as a blatant Fe FAIL.

    C. Some (though not all) INFJ doorslamming activities involve Fe FAILs. (Seriously, guys. I’m not trying to stir up the entire INFJ doorslamming controversy. So don’t everyone get all indignant.) Maybe it will lighten the mood if I include phobik’s doorslamming smiley. Ha ha! The best emoticon I’ve ever seen used on TypoC.


    D. Vicky Jo Varner (MBTI consultant and author of INFJ.com and herself an INFJ extraordinaire) says this about her own Fe FAILs:
    It’s a bit of a shock to consider feeling being used as a form of bullying and prejudice; nevertheless, I can think of times, particularly in my high school days, when I have censured others for not behaving according to collective norms. It’s interesting to reconsider those experiences now, in light of the eight-function model and a [hopefully] more developed consciousness. While I may have snubbed others for displaying “inappropriate behavior,” my transgressions pale in comparison to the extreme pressure from the Collective to hide our unpleasant emotions. - Defining Introverted Feeling and Extraverted Feeling | Dolphin Dive
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Thoughts, comments, criticisms? I'd especially love to hear what the Fe users have to say. I have a sincere and earnest desire to better respond to Fe users when Fe goes awry. Your suggestions are really appreciated. (Hey where are all the ENFJs? I've been waiting on them to swoop in here.)
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #124
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'd like to just clarify - the reason that we're not adding Fe fail examples is not a matter of thinking we're perfect. I think it may have something to do with the Fe-Ti combo that makes us need to properly understand what it is that we're talking about before contributing. So far, I just don't identify with the examples given of Fe gone awry. I agree that they're wrong. I don't think that shunning people socially is a good thing. So, I am trying to gather enough information to better understand what Fi users perceive Fe as being.

    Both occasions that I doorslammed someone were over the issues of honesty. I did not want someone in my inner circle of friends who had lied to me, particularly when it ended up affecting other people I cared about as well and inconveniencing them. At that point, I just decided to disengage, even though we had been close friends. It called into question everything that I had known about them in the past. I suppose in that sense you could say that INFJs at least do not evaluate on a time by time basis (and maybe that's a Fe thing?) but rather on the impact one particular action has, regardless of motive. Despite many past successful interactions, the awareness of the lying made me unsure that any of my previous impression of the person were in fact accurate or that they were a reliable person to have in my life, despite other good qualities they may have possessed. Even if their motive wasn't bad (increasing our connection or preventing me thinking poorly of them), their method (lying to get what they wanted) was.

  5. #125
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Fi feels like a very strong internal moral compass. When Fi's hackles are raised, there are no shades of gray. Things are clearly either right or wrong. My Fi had judged Anita was Wrong (with a capital W).
    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Fi is hardly binary, it probably just looks that way because you don't go spalunking and see how much weavy-traversing we did, you just see if we came up on one side or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Sorry,that was sloppy of me. I believe that Fi has the same shades of grey and need for precision that Fe lacks.
    Just to clarify my earlier statements about things seeming very right or wrong to Fi... I think that Fi does see all the shades of gray. In a way that is almost overwhelming and perhaps because it considers the emotions of those involved with a depth that Fe lacks.

    That being said, it seems like Fi is akin to solving a puzzle. The puzzle gets solved when you can answer one of these questions:
    • "What is the Right thing for me to do here?"
    • "Is this person Wrong?"
    • "What is the most moral thing to do for all involved?"

    Don't forget, that even though Fe and Fi have the word "feeling" in their respective names, these are rational functions, which means that are about making decisions on the information our perceiving functions (Ne, Ni, Se, or Si) take in.

    So back to whether Fi is more black and white or more shades of gray, I think it's both. It just depends on whether the Fi user is in puzzle solving mode (shades of gray), or in puzzle has been solved mode (black and white).

    So in the case of my original 'Fi gone awry' example, I expended a great deal of mental energy working through all the ethical permutations of what Anita had done. (Ne supported by Fi.) This was when I was in puzzle-solving mode. I saw all the shades of gray, to the point where it was overwhelming. But once I concluded she was wrong to do what she did, the shades of gray became black and white. It almost was a relief to reach my conclusion, which in this case was that she was Wrong (with a capital W).

    I don't know if every Fi user feels this way, but this is definitely the way it feels to me.

    Or maybe it's just that the shades of gray are so overwhelming that I have to force a kind of order on them. Thus, in order to prevent me from drowning in the chaos of my Fi, I seek the black and white puzzle answer like a life preserver.

    I hope this makes sense to someone other than myself. It's really hard for me to articulate my Fi.

    ========================

    And, Fidelia, in reference to the post you just made above this one....

    I appreciate you saying this and actually this helps me understand a bit what sometimes seems like a perplexing silence on the part of INFJs during such discussions. I was typing this post while you posted yours. But if we go back to the analogy of how Fi and Ti have some things in common in that they are hard to articulate and need time to reflect, I completely get what you're saying.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #126
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    A. An ENFJ friend once told me that as a young man if he decided someone had crossed a moral line he would go around to everyone this person knew and tell them what an awful person was the object of his scorn. He said this was pretty much his modus operandi when he was younger and more immature. Fe FAIL.
    I don't consider that Fe, Fi people do that just as much depending on overall type. (I mean, god, just imagine ESFPs for a second... it's pretty much par for the course for the immature ones to badmouth people they're upset with.)

    It's just called "immaturity."

    Extroversion coupled with an F function is GOING to cause some social waves regardless of Fi or Fe.


    B. I had a really unhealthy ENFJ, try to "destroy" me socially because he perceived I had wronged his best friend. I had never done anything to this ENFJ. Not even had a single conversation in over 15 years that transcended the level of schmoozing with him. What was my crime? I had given his best friend a bit of a dressing down. After what I assume was some normal complaining-about-a-chick-who-dissed-me conversations between this guy and the ENFJ, the ENFJ proceeded to go around maligning me to anyone who would listen. Some of the adjectives he used: "crazy, skank, nutso, to-be-avoided, etc." In other words, he consciously and pre-meditatedly conducted a whisper campaign to hurt my social standing. Sounds very 8th grade. Unfortunately, everyone involved was well over 35. I asked another ENFJ why any ENFJ would engage in such childish behavior. He said, "Well, Fe isn't just about being able to work a room. It's also about displays of personal loyalty." That may be, but I've still gotta characterize this as a blatant Fe FAIL.
    Again, I feel bad you were wronged like this; but why is this being assigned to Fe? I hear the same level of immature crap from EFPs. The only saving grace of introverts is not virtue; We might think these things and want to do them, but our direction of energy flow usually means we do it all inside our heads or just talk about it with people we're close to.

    And T's can do it too.

    C. Some (though not all) INFJ doorslamming activities involve Fe FAILs. (Seriously, guys. I’m not trying to stir up the entire INFJ doorslamming controversy. So don’t everyone get all indignant.) Maybe it will lighten the mood if I include phobik’s doorslamming smiley. Ha ha! The best emoticon I’ve ever seen used on TypoC.
    Again... you're really offensive right now. I'm taking your dissing Fe for poor behaviors that are mirrored and/or emulated within Fi, yet you seen to be "skipping over this" or attributing blame in a lopsided way, as a grave injustice/unfairness.

    I hope this is the more "mature" way to deal -- by just making clear what the nature of my emotional reaction is. If Fe was dissing Fi unequally, I'd be offended as well.

    It’s a bit of a shock to consider feeling being used as a form of bullying and prejudice; nevertheless, I can think of times, particularly in my high school days, when I have censured others for not behaving according to collective norms. It’s interesting to reconsider those experiences now, in light of the eight-function model and a [hopefully] more developed consciousness. While I may have snubbed others for displaying “inappropriate behavior,” my transgressions pale in comparison to the extreme pressure from the Collective to hide our unpleasant emotions.
    I agree with her. Some of my refuge within "Fe behavior" came from being in an unsafe place growing up, and the social standards were the only protection I had -- any bad emotions (hell, even reasonable complaints) that were expressed against people I found threatening were not only futile but could trigger actual reprisal. I've had to make a big shift in recent years, when I'm in "more normal relationships" where the other person is more reasonable and find myself needing to choose particular battles to fight and ways to express negative emotion that can still be constructive. It definitely can be difficult when your experience has always led to conflict as being unsafe and useless. I find conflict abrasive and unnerving and have had to rise above that bad feeling to enter it, when I think it's necessary, nowadays. I wish I didn't feel that way.

    And from how delicately I've had to handle negative conversations with some Fe/Ni users, I think it can be far worse for them.

    Thoughts, comments, criticisms? I'd especially love to hear what the Fe users have to say. I have a sincere and earnest desire to better respond to Fe users when Fe goes awry. Your suggestions are really appreciated. (Hey where are all the ENFJs? I've been waiting on them to swoop in here.)
    My basic feedback is that I personally have a really hard talking to you because you phrase things habitually in ways that piss me off; and I still haven't quite nailed the reason that I have this response, which is frustrating for me. If you sense hostility on my part, please accept that I'm doing my best and trying to work through it and engage more maturely than my emotions are tempting me to.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #127
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't consider that Fe, Fi people do that just as much depending on overall type. (I mean, god, just imagine ESFPs for a second... it's pretty much par for the course for the immature ones to badmouth people they're upset with.) It's just called "immaturity." Extroversion coupled with an F function is GOING to cause some social waves regardless of Fi or Fe.

    ...I feel bad you were wronged like this; but why is this being assigned to Fe? I hear the same level of immature crap from EFPs. The only saving grace of introverts is not virtue; We might think these things and want to do them, but our direction of energy flow usually means we do it all inside our heads or just talk about it with people we're close to. And T's can do it too.
    I can't argue with you here about the I/E factor. Extraversion brings things out into the forefront. Introverts can go under the radar, so to speak.

    But as far as the Fe gone awry examples I gave being more about immaturity more than Fe, I'm going to say that disagree with you. Yes, of course immaturity is involved here. But the way that immaturity is expressed has to do with what cognitive functions are at play. So an immature Fe user will display their immaturity by making immature decisions with their Fe.

    Let's look at Example A in which the Fe user himself admits this behavior was immature... he goes around badmouthing someone to the group. But unlike an equally immature ESFP who might just go around b*tching about someone, the ENFJ had a very specific agenda to ostracize the offender from the group. The forethought and understanding of the meaning behind his actions was very N of him. (An ESFP normally would not approach it in this way. They'd just b*tch for b*tching's sake. At least this has been my experience.) The employment of this behavior as a tactic supporting an overall social dynamic strategy is the Fe component. In other words, this ENFJ consciously used group dynamics to achieve a strategic goal. The consciousness (articulated in a conceptual way) is the N component. The use of group dynamics about how people feel about someone else to achieve that goal is the Fe component.

    I like example A and B, because they are such clear cut cases of Fe gone awry. Fe is not about making everyone feel happy and comfortable. It's about understanding how one's behavior affects the group dynamic. And taking into account other's reactions when formulating one's own behavior. How one leverages this knowledge can be for good or bad. At its worst, Fe takes on a group/mob mentality in which anyone who doesn't conform to the group is drummed out... which is exactly what the Fe user in example B was trying to do to me. Immaturity and douchebaggery can be found in all personality types. It's just the particular way this guy's immaturity was articulated seems to have to do with his dominant Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again... you're really offensive right now. I'm taking your dissing Fe for poor behaviors that are mirrored and/or emulated within Fi, yet you seen to be "skipping over this" or attributing blame in a lopsided way, as a grave injustice/unfairness.

    I hope this is the more "mature" way to deal -- by just making clear what the nature of my emotional reaction is. If Fe was dissing Fi unequally, I'd be offended as well.
    Thank you for trying to express your thoughts after some reflection on how to do it in the most "mature" manner possible. I figure this is the best any of us can hope for. To be aware of our strengths and weaknesses and proactively manage them. I very much respect what you're saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My basic feedback is that I personally have a really hard talking to you because you phrase things habitually in ways that piss me off; and I still haven't quite nailed the reason that I have this response, which is frustrating for me. If you sense hostility on my part, please accept that I'm doing my best and trying to work through it and engage more maturely than my emotions are tempting me to.
    This made me smile, Jennifer. And, I'm not smiling because I'm discounting what you're saying, nor because I'm not taking you seriously. I guess this made me smile because I've gotten to the point that I'm not completely devastated by such criticisms and can (usually, on a good day) step back and consider if the other person has a point. 'Cause God knows I'm not perfect. And, I've come to appreciate that my writing style with its dry sense of humor (replete with self-deprecating remarks) rubs some people the wrong way.

    I want you to know that I appreciate your candor. Please also let me say that I'm not trying to be offensive or piss anyone off. I hope you keep that in mind while you're interacting with me. I firmly believe that we can find a common ground.

    =========

    As a side note, I find it very interesting that Fe/Fi discussions have the ability to get people so upset. I've noticed on this forum that when Fe/Fi differences are discussed someone almost always gets upset. Usually there is some kind of comment like, "That's why I hate Fe/Fi." Perhaps this is because what's up for discussion involves people's sense of fairness and right and wrong.

    My awareness of this sensitivity is one of the reasons that I suggested we use the format described in the original post. I think that by forcing oneself to consider how a behavior inconveniences others... even if you firmly believe your actions were the right thing to do... is a wonderful way to bypass going into defensive / aggressive mode.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  8. #128
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Hmm..

    I've done badmouthing with an agenda, but it's not common, and could be just some isolated weirdness. I remember once in highschool seeing some kickers (short for shitkickers.. which in turn is slang for rednecks...which is slang for.. eh, nevermind).. where was I? Oh, I saw some kickers scratching KKK symbols on their picnic table. I kind of hinted at this to a few different minority thug groups (how I was so connected, don't ask). It steamrolled to the point that everyone literally bonded against them on the Friday football pep rally - Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings.. I'm not kidding. It was kind of scary..some of these people I knew ended up being murderers and all kinds of nasty. Anyways, they got beat down for a week or so. Some girls included. I didn't really expect that - nor did I bother enough to do anything myself to them. I know for sure though I was responsible for setting some of that in motion. Bad Fe? Good Fe? I'd fully admit that around this age I was messed up, and didn't exactly have "justice" on my mind. There was something playfully malevolent about it..how I'd communicate something like that to get them riled up. That said, some things happened later on in my life where my personality completely changed, values changed, and I started keeping to myself. I couldn't influence anyone anymore. Not like that at least.

  9. #129
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Because we've had a go around before, EW, I don't feel as annoyed. I know that your motives are good. I also am aware that if the shoe is on the other foot and I express all of my thoughts, I could potentially really get up a posse of the Fi-Te crowd against me. However, the issue in your communication is not dry sense of humour or self-deprecating comments (both are compliments to yourself, do you not see that?). It feels condescending and like you are going to tell us what is best for us (Te maybe?). Not being a Fe user yourself, you are saying that our experiences of Fe are invalid because you have seen Fe gone awry and you see it objectively. In our case, I think it would work better to say what you see and ask for more perspective to explain why that seemed like a logical course of action to the person. You will get the missing information you need, without making your audience feel invalided and misunderstood.

    That is a sure way to get hackles up. You are clearly ignoring someone saying that they are struggling to be civil with you (sign to back off on the Te!). It's like you totally disregarded that message (which affects the other people in the discussion) and are streamrolling ahead without having addressed the concern brought up. That makes Ti users feel as if you really don't understand the situation or know what you are talking about, even if you feel like you do. (It stifles us in the same way that Fe users assuming their way is obviously THE way it is, not just our view of how things should be done stifles you and makes you want to do just the opposite for spite).

    I don't know if you can identify with any of what I'm talking about, but I think it might be important to heed if you are interested in a productive discussion (lol, again I'm concerned about the end result).

    I'm not saying that your perceptions are invalid or that they should never be expressed. I'm just saying that stating them after delving into the Ti concerns will probably serve you better.

  10. #130
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Questions for FJs:
    (1.) do you take a moment to self-check, with nearly every conscious action that you take, "is this behaviour in line with how I want to live out my values?"

    (2.) How conscious are you of your personal priorities (beyond the collective moral standards)?
    Top-notch ENFJ prof once said to me that she was so good at giving people what they wanted in graduate school, that towards the end when she was beginning to form her career without answering to others she struggled with what she wanted to do. It took her a while to find her research interests because she wasn't very good at finding what lit her fire on her own terms absent an outside source.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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