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[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

Fidelia

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Oh, yeah that's right (just looked up the functions for each type again). Whoops.
 

OrangeAppled

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As you can see, Fe-Si and Fe-Ni are quite different, yet far too many people take the Fe-Si description and call it Fe, in general.

It is easy to make that mistake, but in fairness, many of us have more experience with SFJs, so that's our frame of reference. These threads can help clarify the differences.

Knowing all of that, I do think it can be quite pointless to have these Fe-Fi threads.

I think if you ignore a few small quibbles here & there, a lot of useful insight can be gleaned from these threads. If anything, it does help to distinguish FeSi from FeNi. I think what's actually explored less is the difference between FiNe & FiSe.
 

Usehername

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Analogy:

Ti users were likely the ones to catch the significant issue that led to the Challenger blowing up and killing people. They rang the bells loudly, they alerted their supervisors, they tried to pass information up the chain of command but NASA is a large corporation and precision was overlooked because it's a Te environment with different priorities.

Fi users are similarly likely to be the ones to pay careful attention and catch the issues of significance in terms of values and integrity compromises. Fi users similarly ring the bells and similarly face the resistance of living in a Fe world that leaves precision overlooked because of different priorities.

Now, what is frustrating to the Xi users is:
not only are their important thoughts going unacknowledged and therefore needlessly exposing people to situations where they can get fvcked for lack of careful attention, but also that they've always been and feel like they always will be the people with greater concern for what's going on at all levels (meaning, details AND systemic outcomes), and no power to put it to use.

Which doesn't mean that the Xe users don't care about what's going on--they absolutely do, and are working their darndest towards great outcomes and getting to their goals more productively. But the Xi users are paying exorbitant amounts of attention at all levels and by way of this careful attention are the ones more competent to be making the judgments. But of course the Xe users think are too outcome-focused to even notice that they're not noticing something important, characterizing the Xi users as Chicken Little worrywarts, unrealistic, moody, nerdy or whatever.

So partly what the Xe users are seeing is the frustration that comes with being in a subordinate position of power when the person who's making the rules is actually less qualified to be wielding that power.


Of course, at some point, pragmatism has to come into play. And that's why Te rules Western capitalism and Fe rules Western social interaction. But, and this is a significant but, there are cultures where Ti rules and Fi rules. Which means it's not Te and Fe's god-given place to be the standard. It means that one group's priorities are given more value than the other.

This is why a lot of Fi people look simplistic and moody to Fe users. It's because in Western culture Fe is the fish in water, the standard, the de rigeur, the values granted as more important.

But just as Fidelia mentioned, the education system could be vastly improved if the Te users let the Ti users overhaul the semi-functional system. And similarly, the integrity/values/social world could be vastly improved if Fe users let Fi users pick some of the rules and priorities and values. You know which ones are Ti and Fi--they're the cultures where things move more slowly, where getting through a checklist of tasks and accomplishing a boatload of goals are not as important. The cultures that grate you because they're not Te enough (schedule-oriented) or Fe enough (group harmony and outcome oriented). But we're Westerners and this is how Westerners value things, for better or worse.
 

William K

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I think if you ignore a few small quibbles here & there, a lot of useful insight can be gleaned from these threads. If anything, it does help to distinguish FeSi from FeNi. I think what's actually explored less is the difference between FiNe & FiSe.

Yeah, I think most if not all of the Fi-stuff being mentioned here are coming from the viewpoints of the NFPs
 

Z Buck McFate

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Okay- it must be said- at the idea of bringing up the difference between SFJ and NFJ: it’s a brilliant idea and someone should start that thread forthwith. Packing all the charm and illumination of a typical Fe/Fi thread into an N/S discussion. What could go wrong?



The whole thread has been overall informative and civil, with intelligent people trying to find common ground amongst ourselves.

I agree. Apologies to Esoteric for taking it so far away from her op, but still- for an Fe/Fi thread- this has far more insightful exchanges than most.

Analogy:

Ti users were likely the ones to catch the significant issue that led to the Challenger blowing up and killing people. They rang the bells loudly, they alerted their supervisors, they tried to pass information up the chain of command but NASA is a large corporation and precision was overlooked because it's a Te environment with different priorities.

Fi users are similarly likely to be the ones to pay careful attention and catch the issues of significance in terms of values and integrity compromises. Fi users similarly ring the bells and similarly face the resistance of living in a Fe world that leaves precision overlooked because of different priorities.

I thought this whole post was good at bringing clarity, especially this part^.
 

Jaguar

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I think if you ignore a few small quibbles here & there, a lot of useful insight can be gleaned from these threads.

"My Fi was very, very, very, hurt." That is not useful insight.
It is nothing more than someone talking about their emotions and substituting Fi for the word, feelings.
The Feeling function itself -regardless of attitude- is not to be confused with "feelings" or "emotions" as we commonly know them.
That is why I made the comment earlier, that threads like these are pointless.
The reason they're pointless is they're not really discussing Fi and Fe as function attitudes, at all.
They're discussing hurt feelings.

You have repeatedly expressed your dissatisfaction with how Fi is defined and discussed in this forum.
If I were an Fi Dom, the last thing on earth I would want to see is someone saying their Fi was "hurt."
It sounds like someone fell on their ass, rather than what Fi really is - a mental process used to evaluate worth.
 

Kalach

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So, would you say it's more about being heard than about the action ultimately taken, then? This is what I'm trying to understand--I guess because Fe is kind of an action thing, and I'm trying to get the distinction of what Fi looks like, ideally, in a group setting, if it's as unfettered as an Fi user would like.

I once claimed, and it's simplistic but perhaps begins to express the differing priorities, that there are people in this world requiring that we have good relationships before we can work together well, and there are people requiring that we work together well before we can have a good relationship. The claim is an attempt to encapsulate Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi approaches to group harmony.
 

OrangeAppled

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"My Fi was very, very, very, hurt." That is not useful insight.
It is nothing more than someone talking about their emotions and substituting Fi for the word, feelings.
The Feeling function itself -regardless of attitude- is not to be confused with "feelings" or "emotions" as we commonly know them.
That is why I made the comment earlier, that threads like these are pointless.
The reason they're pointless is they're not really discussing Fi and Fe as function attitudes, at all.
They're discussing hurt feelings.

You have repeatedly expressed your dissatisfaction with how Fi is defined and discussed in this forum.
If I were an Fi Dom, the last thing on earth I would want to see is someone saying their Fi was "hurt."
It sounds like someone fell on their ass, rather than what it really is - a mental process used to evaluate worth.

:huh:

I didn't say anything about my "Fi being hurt", nor was that the point of my posts or many other people's posts. Anything along those lines doesn't cancel out the useful posts.

The discussions in these threads revolve around how differences in the function attitudes can lead to misunderstandings & hurt emotional feelings. These situations of misunderstandings are examples to clarify some of the differences in the Fe & Fi thought processes. Obviously, it's not always Fe & Fi differences that lead to these misunderstandings, which many have brought out.

Maybe these threads are pointless to you, but other people have found something valuable in them.
 

Jaguar

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I didn't say anything about my "Fi being hurt", nor was that the point of my posts or many other people's posts.

No one ever said it was your comment.
The comment is all the way back at the beginning of the thread, made by EW.
 

OrangeAppled

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No one ever said it was your comment.
The comment is all the way back at the beginning of the thread, made by EW.

Well, I don't need every comment in a thread to be true to consider it successful in some ways. Focusing on them misses the points which are valid.
 

Jaguar

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Well, I don't need every comment in a thread to be true to consider it successful in some ways. Focusing on them misses the points which are valid.

The person who starts a thread can set the tone. The thread began with butt-hurt feelings. I get it, I get it. Fi= butt-hurt feelings. Great! Super! Wunderbar! :D
 

Fidelia

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Someone said something to me about how Fi users feel very dishonest discussing negative feelings about group dynamics in private. It reminded me of a teacher from Quebec who taught at the first school I worked at. A few of them had come to this Alberta school all in one year. Several left, because they were frustrated with the differences in cultural communication. They felt that in Quebec, if you were upset with someone or disagreed with them, you let them know right away (even if you were in a group). Here, people would wait till they left the room and then discuss it. What seemed polite in Alberta was seen as passive-aggressive in Quebec. What seemed overly blunt and embarrassing people publicly to Albertans was seen as being open and honest and doing the person the respect of knowing your opinion and responding to it. Would you say that there is some parallel between Fe and Fi in that regard? He said that over time, he adjusted to it and no longer saw it as rude, but that he still had a tendancy to be much blunter than would be the norm here.

I've noticed on here that Fi users (ENFPs especially) tend to want to discuss problems in public without going to the offending person first. My first reaction to that is that it creates a massive mess to clean up, rarely ends up resolving anything and usually spawns several more issues. I'm focussed on the end result it has. I'm understanding that they feel that anything less would be sweeping something public under the carpet instead of being transparent about it. I also suspect that the act of airing those thoughts and emotions and sticking up for someone is more important to them than the resulting outcome. The purpose of starting that kind of thread maybe has nothing to do with what happens in the end?

From a Fe standpoint, it seems like just as much damage as the initial offense is incurred by not allowing the person a chance to respond or remedy the situation in anyway by making them aware of it. It is possible to me (maybe this is Ni-Fe?) that there may be many reasons they acted as they did and perhaps not all of them were spawned with bad motivation or in an attempt to hurt someone or squash them. To me it seems unfair that instead of talking to the person in a way that isn't going to cause them to lose face (or face untrue accusations, especially when you may not have all the information), it jumps right away to public berating and generalizations. While an issue may have happened publicly, it may even be that a person may not be able to defend themselves without revealing information that would expose the other person or hurt them by having everyone know.

I think I understand the reasoning that a Fi person may use initially. What I'm fuzzy on is what is the outcome that you would foresee in ideal Fi world when you operate in this way? That everyone had a chance to say their say? That the public is aware that an offense happened? That you feel better having expressed your sentiments and now your conscience is clear?

If you have done this and it hasn't turned out well for you (in a workplace setting, etc), does that affect what you do the next time? How would you see a person in charge ideally responding to that kind of outpouring? How would you see co-workers ideally responding?
 

OrangeAppled

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The person who starts a thread can set the tone. The thread began with butt-hurt feelings. I get it, I get it. Fi= butt-hurt feelings. Great! Super! Wunderbar! :D

Well, I think the thread took a major turn and became something positive. Sorry you can't see it that way.

I also hate that phrase "butt-hurt" and what it implies, but that's another topic....
 

Tallulah

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I once claimed, and it's simplistic but perhaps begins to express the differing priorities, that there are people in this world requiring that we have good relationships before we can work together well, and there are people requiring that we work together well before we can have a good relationship. The claim is an attempt to encapsulate Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi approaches to group harmony.

This is very helpful, thanks. The Fi approach is still very foreign to me, but I'm coming to better understand, I think.
 

PeaceBaby

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For ZBuck (and all):

I've been giving this some thought, a (to me) significant example of Fe stifling Fi (perhaps I should be specific to Fi/Ne observing Fe/Ni). This is a big example, and personal, so please, no one quote this whole post.

For me, Fi is not about feelings per se, but feelings are what I get as signals that something isn't fitting right. So, although the function differs from emotion, emotions are the flashing alarm bells, so to speak.

And this is long. Apologies in advance.

-----

STORY DELETED TO PROTECT THE "INNOCENT" - pm me for details if you want

..

To me, Ted is effectively Bob's pawn, and Bob, despite all the goodness in his heart, is NOT thinking about the whole group here. He has effectively engineered this whole terrible split of the congregation, one that I could feel in my heart was happening and was wrong, but couldn't fully pin down until the plan was close to completion, and when I did raise concerns all along the way, I was placated or ignored and we did stuff like "surveys" to appease the unhappy and ensure that majority rule would persist.

The congregation is now half the size. Might go bankrupt. Apparently they are even talking about whether they are going to be a Liturgical congregation anymore. I would have never imagined this possible 5 years ago. That church was a rock. We joined that congregation because it did seem so good in an interpersonal way.

I don't think Bob is a bad guy. I think he believes in his heart he is doing lots of the right things. We spoke recently, and I passionately shared all the concerns of my heart, and how people followed him and trusted him, but how could all these changes be right when they have alienated half of the people who used to come here! I don't think Ted is blameless, but I know he doesn't "see" people or "get" people like Bob does. Ted's so trusting, and doesn't think very far ahead. I think Bob is the inspiration or "mastermind" behind much of this.

And of course there are other players, but the story is tl;dr as it is!

I think Bob's personal vision of what's right for HIM has replaced the vision of what's right for ALL.

-----

To me, this is how the group stifles the individual, Fe vs Fi. Unless Fi can stand up and righteously give a voice to and declare the problem, Fi-er's are just like little nagging voices of dissension to Fe. You can't imagine how hard I try to work within any system, using Fe tools, but I can't engineer a situation like the one above. I don't surround myself with people who can give majority consensus when needed; as an introvert too, my energies are more limited in these social environs.

When I have authority (like I'm the boss or in my work with charities) it's easier to keep track of where everyone is, but in these situations, when stuff is happening behind the scenes and I can only sense it but not verify it, very challenging.

-----

Does that help at all?
 
Last edited:

Thalassa

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The person who starts a thread can set the tone. The thread began with butt-hurt feelings. I get it, I get it. Fi= butt-hurt feelings. Great! Super! Wunderbar! :D

Yeah people stereotype that people who get openly butt-hurt have Fi, and people who "manage people" or ...more like "handle people" ...have Fe.

It's an unfair stereotype that detracts from the fact that someone with Fe can act victim-y or like a martyr, and someone with Fi can placate people.

There are definitely patterns of behavior, but apparently it really lies in the "why."
 

Thalassa

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And who do you think I learned that phrase from? Some ENFPs. ;)

Well everyone knows that ENFPs have a better sense of humor than INFPs about these things. ;)

Nobody better get butt-hurt over that joke.
 

Fidelia

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There is actually pastors literature distributed and evangelical church coaches who have formulated ways to silence anyone who does not go on with the new direction of the church (especially in dealing with issues such as trad music vs contemporary, service format, making churches larger and more seeker friendly and turning it into more of a big business). These ways were simply being implemented in your church. I disagree with it and I believe it has been the ruin of many, many churches, but I don't believe this is a Fe issue. It is an issue of differing agendas about what direction the church ultimately goes in. I've been a part of two churches now that have been torn apart in the same way and have done a lot of research about it.
 

Fidelia

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Please don't let all my questions get buried! I have two posts now with questions that haven't been addressed and I think they are relevant to understanding Fi better.
 
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