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  1. #111
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    I love flirting and your mom is retarded.

    It's really difficult for me to comprehend why other people don't see that's the best part.


  2. #112
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    One of the people that I'm thinking of is INTP so I guess that's Si and Fe in tandem, though not the way you're suggesting.

    I see ENTPs enforcing Fe sometimes, too.
    Just to add.. It's still possible for Ni to come off forceful.. possibly more than Ne. I think a clear case of Ni-Fe gone awry that everyone is familiar with is political correctness. I'm almost sure that's the product of an NFJ's mind (at least originally). In the sense that they would seek to redefine things in a more inclusive way, and indirectly aid people to become more friendly just by changing words.. but once definitions are settled, they'd try to enforce it (not to say all NFJs are politically correct..just using this as an example on how their idealism can seem restrictive).

    We could also use extreme examples of famous NFJs, who weren't snagging people on the "moral order" so much as their vision of a new moral order. MLK Jr. had no time for status quo, and in segregated America's eyes he was definitely an enemy of "freedom". So much so that he didn't deserve to live. Che Guevara was even less nice in his plan to equalize classes in Latin America - from some perspectives, he's a monster. But in his own words, he did it "out of love".

  3. #113
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    When Fe asks for external validation of feeling, it is not to stifle others. They are looking for a mirror to reflect how they appear to others and to help give them more information to take back inside as they sort out their own feelings/beliefs about something.
    So, in addition to getting one's values from outside oneself, Fe users also get a sense of their own value in the same way? Of course, they do, that makes sense. This thread is so interesting because it reveals fundamental differences that we just take for granted. If you are only able to value who you are and what you feel contigent on group norms, then outcome is everything and method almost irrelevant (unless your peers would judge your methods to be "wrong").
    I cannot begin to comprehend this way of experiencing value. It must be incredibley self-limiting, but it does explain a great deal.

    I often get into conflicts with my ESFJ mother because she is both controlling and overly accommodating at the same time. She will never express a preference for anything "if you're happy, I'm happy", "I'm easy" yet she will try to micromanage the way everything is done because there is only one "right" way to do something and she assumes this is self-evident to everyone. Her biggest complaint is that she "isn't appreciated" and no she's not much of the time. Who appreciates interfering busybodies? But she won't change her behaviour, because she's "right".

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's a big misconception about Fi & its values that they are "black and white". Fi forms broad concepts which allows for many ways to be right & wrong. Fi also focuses on underlying meaning. This can mean there is less interest in finding the "appropriate" way to express something, because that seems totally arbitrary. Who decides what is appropriate and what is not? Why must there be ONE correct way? From MY perspective, Fe seems a lot more black-&-white with its social protocol, even though I know that is not the case upon closer inspection.


    It seemed as if we have to work off a script, which is frustrating when it is not saying what you feel accurately. It seems to ask for a denial of what you really feel, so that no one ever knows how someone really feels. I wonder, what is the point when you reach such a level of going-through-the-motions?

    Besides, I find external harmony is a facade when it's not connected to a genuine feeling. It goes back to the feeling that people are working from some script, and what they really mean has to be divined through reading between the lines. The Fe protocol just feels like tons of red tape to cut through.
    Yes! This is what I meant when I spoke about congruity. I loathe facades. Fake harmony is much worse than honest disagreement - because the latter is authentic.
    My mom even insisted that you "fake it til you feel it", which highlights what I've always thought about Fi vs. Fe. Fi wants to start from the inside and work out, and Fe wants to start on the outside and work in.
    Of course it does - it knows no other way. Fe users have used exactly that expression with me before. It makes me sick to my stomach. It sounds like they want me to be a fucking zombie or a Stepford wife or something. (That movie is a pretty accurate portrayal of what it feels like to have introverted judgement in a world of extraverted judgement.)


    Are there no other Ti/Fi users? No wonder I'm such an oddball...
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    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #114
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I remember there was a homeless woman who used to hang out near my highschool, around the local Sonic. During lunch periods, kids would be sitting around, tossing quarters and dimes out on the pavement, and laughed as she stooped down picking the coins up. They did it for their own amusement. It pissed me off one day that I picked up the coins myself and got some of my own change and walked up to her, trying to treat her with respect. And guess what? She blew up! It was unnerving. I just kneeled down and dropped all of the coins in front of her, and walked away. I felt like an idiot in front of everyone. Sure, I'm butting in, but how am I wrong here? I look stupid to the person I'm helping, and I look stupid to the people who humiliate her. There's no logic to this.

    Just to bring it back to Che again (not to compare myself, other than on a Fe level - I just want to put it in a wider sense). There was an interesting bout between him and other Latin representatives when he made his UN speech. Each country had a 10 minute rebuttal to respond to what he was saying about justice in Latin America, ridding themselves of American imperialism, etc.. and the Panamanian says something just like that homeless woman: "No Me Defiendas, Compadre." There's no logic in that either.

    I'm not an ESFJ (although it's possible that I'm a weird ISFJ)..I'd say that I have different sort of standards, but I can almost see myself saying what they say when they think they know what is right for others sometimes. It's possible that Fe does know, every once in awhile at least. Don't hate

  5. #115
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    So, in addition to getting one's values from outside oneself, Fe users also get a sense of their own value in the same way? Of course, they do, that makes sense. This thread is so interesting because it reveals fundamental differences that we just take for granted. If you are only able to value who you are and what you feel contigent on group norms, then outcome is everything and method almost irrelevant (unless your peers would judge your methods to be "wrong").
    One thing I get really frustrated about within myself is that intellectually I can completely disregard the opinion and thoughts of the group and immediately recognize when I think someone or something is irrational (and thus "stupid")... but I have a REALLY hard time expressing myself in ways that I know will cause social disruption.

    I used to even despise myself for it because it all seems very irrational to me.

    I just had such a keen awareness of the ramifications of challenging the current social mores that I knew it would be a large imposition on me to deal with any crap coming from social conflict; and in general, I just do not like conflict and I do care about respecting boundaries and accommodating people when I can.

    Anyway, yes, it can create some very intense conflicts -- people who pursue their own personal values against or outside the system, versus those who see value in pursuing them inside the system when possible. Two different pathways, both potentially good, but both with some potential large flaws.

    I've had to develop a completely different approach in the last few years and change how I interact with people... knowing when to work within the system and knowing when I just need to dig in and hold my own line. It's not easy to know which is the best to do when sometimes.

    I cannot begin to comprehend this way of experiencing value. It must be incredibley self-limiting, but it does explain a great deal.
    I'm not bona-fide Fe in terms of "thinking within it" as my unconscious framework, but I have had to deal with it so much in my life that I have a decent understanding of it. Note: I'm more acquainted with the Fe+Si form of it than Fe+Ni, which I find more flexible and accommodating of individual differences. For years, I just saw it as an imposition and loathed it when it seemed irrational to me and unfairly imposing upon my 'rational' process.

    At some point, things changed (the more I projected into people and tried to see it through their eyes); it provides social glue to hold things together, it offers an explicable net of social expectation and boundaries that can be perceived, understood, and trusted -- "do this" and "they'll do that." That level of predictability is not a bad thing in a diverse culture; it offers a sense of security and stability, as well as social coherence along with the cohesion. Fe+Si only emphasizes these things. I can see why people value it... especially people who have trouble reading into things or seeing under the surface; I've been fortunate enough to intuit where people are coming from, but for those with little instinctive intuition, the rules are what has to be relied on to make things work. And people who disrupt the rules disrupt people's lives. And some of these rules have developed organically as well, they're not just arbitrary even if someone doesn't understand them. Problems mostly occur when cultures/environments change rapidly and the social expectations have not yet caught up, so now the rules no longer are organically derived.

    I often get into conflicts with my ESFJ mother because she is both controlling and overly accommodating at the same time. She will never express a preference for anything "if you're happy, I'm happy", "I'm easy" yet she will try to micromanage the way everything is done because there is only one "right" way to do something and she assumes this is self-evident to everyone.
    That is how I would say it too, but I would propose that it's not even a conscious assumption for her -- it IS reality, and doing things that fly in the face of her reality not only don't make sense but seem insane. The alternate pathway you offer probably doesn't even look reasonable or trustworthy, it flies in the face of what she sees as real, and to accept it would be an insane act of faith.

    That's what I mean by "unconscious frame of reference," she doesn't even know or accept it's one of many, it's simply "reality."

    Her biggest complaint is that she "isn't appreciated" and no she's not much of the time. Who appreciates interfering busybodies? But she won't change her behaviour, because she's "right".
    Yeah, it's a bitch. Until she gets jolted out of her unconscious worldview into consciously seeing it as one framework, this is the sort of crap you'll have to deal with.

    Yes! This is what I meant when I spoke about congruity. I loathe facades. Fake harmony is much worse than honest disagreement - because the latter is authentic.
    One typical conflict here is in deciding what is "fake harmony" vs "honest disagreement." I'm thinking what is fake to one seems real to another; and what seems honest to another seems unnecessarily disruptive to another.

    I don't disagree that sometimes the harmony IS fake; but I also think sometimes the "honesty" is inappropriate. The only way I've been able to determine which it is (for me, and again I know I'm just one individual trying to do the best she can to be fair and honest with people) is to look at my long-term goal in a situation, and seeing which behavior contributes more to reaching that goal. Another approach is to judge my own motivations: If I realize I've done things the "nice way" because I'm being a coward, then I need to change what I'm doing; likewise, if I'm "honest" out of personal convenience without giving a shit about the other person and their views and end up making her life unnecessarily hard for my own benefit when I had other reasonable options, then I've erred as well.

    Are there no other Ti/Fi users? No wonder I'm such an oddball...
    You're pretty unique, Morgan. And I mean that just as I say it, as an observation without judgment attached; I have never really met anyone else quite like you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #116
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    By the way Fi folks, I'm aware that I probably sound a little abrasive and that it evokes reactions similar to how I react to Te. For that I apologize. I don't mean to, but am kind of learning to figure out where the pitfalls are that touch that kind of reaction off. I'm not even sure if this might be one of them. However, please know that I have the best of intentions, even if it isn't well finessed.
    Awwwww! This completely melted my heart fidelia. Same here. (I guess Wonkavision was right. )
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  7. #117
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Final words: Since this is the NF forum, shouldn't we discuss Fe and Fi from Ni and Ne perspectives?

    I think that's all I've been wanting to say..

    I'm not convinced they explicitly clash and step on each other's toes too much. It's in the nature of both to express Fe or Fi "from outside the box", not from the perspective of preserving some familiar standard or code of behavior. That's all Si. It's as different from Ni as Ne is as different from Se. INFJs and ENFJs wouldn't be any more predictable or sucking up to what standards they support than an INTJ or ENTJ. And no less "humanitarian" or broad in their scope than Ne.

    Before I sound like I'm seperating S from the mix, we need that groundedness and tactical support in our lives too.

    Anyways, I'm going to cut it short before I sound all Rodney King and shit. Here, enjoy a song.

  8. #118
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Regarding the mirror thing, it used to seem just as incomprehensible to me that you would get your beliefs/way of ordering the world using the mirrored back statements of other people. I was surprised and shocked to find that my ESTJ's statement of positive fact were actually open to being challenged and that he was actually frustrated that I was being careful to not mirror anything back too strongly. I felt that doing so (unless it was about something that had implications in the long term or that I felt really was missing important information or that would require me compromising my own beliefs) was disrespectful, as I would find it if someone went and tore apart my thoughts without properly delving into them and understanding what went into making them first. I'm beginning to see that there are a lot of parallels here.

  9. #119
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Final words: Since this is the NF forum, shouldn't we discuss Fe and Fi from Ni and Ne perspectives?
    Sorry, my bad. I used the New Posts list, so I'm not always aware of what forum I am in until I make the post.

    I think it's easier to discuss it from S (it accentuates the sides better), but you're right.

    INFJs and ENFJs wouldn't be any more predictable or sucking up to what standards they support than an INTJ or ENTJ. And no less "humanitarian" or broad in their scope than Ne.
    Then what makes the difference? Obviously NT's draw a line at ANY F use and particular Fe -- one of the main reasons this forum even exists was an NF haven created in 2007 from a seed group from INTPc, where (N)F's were despised and treated like chattel. NTs, even if they have values, don't seem to appreciate F much... at least not until they see some value in it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #120
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I just don't identify with the Si variety of Fe as it is described to me anyway. I feel that it is important to speak out when there is injustice or when something needs to be changed. From my point of view, it's not dishonest for me to hold back the full force of what I'd like to say to satisfy my feelings if I am going to have a better shot at remedying the injustice I see by being more measured. I'm wondering, does that feel like dishonesty to Fi users? I believe that feelings come and go and you can't always trust them to guide you. They are important not to ignore, they can propel you into action you wouldn't bother to take otherwise, but there have been times that it would have been very detrimental for me to unload everything I'm feeling. At the same time, I believe people need enough information to work with. Especially with Fe users, saying even a little bit can give them pause and cause them to go back within themselves and look at their own actions and feelings. I know that Fi would like them to do that on their own, but it just is not how they process information. Same reason Te needs something to interact with to look at an issue further. You can always step up the intensity and urgency of the message if needed. Is that seen by Fi though as a kind of manipulative tactic, trying to force someone to act in a certain way? Is that seen as using dishonest means to get a good outcome? I find that if someone helps me see the world through their eyes, it gives me some pause and I stop and re-evaluate. It may help me to better see things from the point of view of the person they are advocating for, or I end up with is some sort of synthesis of both of our thinking, or else I develop with stronger reasons for thinking the way that I did in the first place because I've examined it further. Any of those three outcomes seem to me to be better than what I came up with alone in the first place.

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