User Tag List

First 9101112132161 Last

Results 101 to 110 of 938

  1. #101
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,121

    Default

    I think that has some validity. It's part of the reason why I gauge people's reactions closely. It makes me keep on reconsidering my behaviour in relation to what others feel, think or react like. That doesn't mean necessarily that I decide I'm wrong just because someone doesn't agree, but it is somewhat of a way of testing out behaviour/ideas.

    I had never thought about Te in exactly those terms, but that is most definitely true. I've found that my ESTJ was more likely to change his thinking than I was, even though from the onset he sounded absolutely convinced that his way was right and I assumed that he was going to stick by it as firmly as I would if I came out and stated something so positively. Good food for thought.

  2. #102
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Fi feels strongly and tends to be very black and white (especially when it is intense).

    I'm not sure about this, but do you think it's possible that Fe-Ti people see things in many shades of grey, rather than black and white (kind of like Fi-Te is about emotions). Therefore it is important to be precise about expressing your ideas/feelings (hence the emphasis on the message) and it feels wrong to insist that things ARE a certain way, as Fi-Te may feel more comfortable doing (Te generalizes a little more, Fi feels very very strongly)? Just kind of thinking aloud. I haven't really tested all of that out yet against all the real life situations I could to see if it holds true.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Sorry,that was sloppy of me. I believe that Fi has the same shades of grey and need for precision that Fe lacks.
    Ugh....yeah I'm glad you retracted that later in the thread. It's a big misconception about Fi & its values that they are "black and white". Fi forms broad concepts which allows for many ways to be right & wrong. Fi also focuses on underlying meaning. This can mean there is less interest in finding the "appropriate" way to express something, because that seems totally arbitrary. Who decides what is appropriate and what is not? Why must there be ONE correct way? From MY perspective, Fe seems a lot more black-&-white with its social protocol, even though I know that is not the case upon closer inspection.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I think Fi has a tendency to cause trouble with Fe because more often than not, Fi users make "intent" very important in a situation. Fi says "I didn't mean to cause any harm" and Fe says it's irrelevant. What matters is results, not method. You caused derision and impacted the group, whether you meant to or not. In that way, Fe is like Te. Fi would also be like Ti in that the methodology, having the right intent, or in the case of Ti, logic, is more important than the apparent outcome. I think the answer is, at least from an Fi perspective, to recognize that what's right isn't always what's right. I don't know about Fe, because I don't think I understand it well enough to judge it or its users.
    I definitely think this makes some good points.

    My ISFJ mom and I got into a discussion about expressing feelings. My mom said that it's important to express yourself in certain ways to make other people feel good, because those certain ways are clear & making people feel good is more important than anything. These ways she suggested were pretty much the usual social niceties, which I had earlier expressed to her make me blanch when they seem phony (and they often do). I asked why there must be one way, and why alternate methods were invalidated by so many people. It seemed as if we have to work off a script, which is frustrating when it is not saying what you feel accurately. It seems to ask for a denial of what you really feel, so that no one ever knows how someone really feels. I wonder, what is the point when you reach such a level of going-through-the-motions?

    For my mom, the results seem to be everything, not the method, because the motive is to affect. I realize that for her, that motive is genuine, because her feeling is about external harmony moreso than internal integrity, or rather, that external harmony is in keeping with her sense of internal integrity. To achieve good results, you use the language most people accept as correct, and in the case of being Si-dom, this especially means what is tried-and-true.

    For me, to conform to some arbitrary standard of appropriate expression for a feeling can miss the point of the feeling itself. I'm more concerned with accuracy of meaning in the expression, not appropriateness of delivery. This does not mean I go having hissy fits in public, as suggested in this thread about Fi-ers. From my point of view, the Fe smoooooothness can seem passive-aggressive and to ignore the elephant in the room. Fi-ers usually HATE the elephant in the room. I also HATE embarrassing, unbridled, public displays of emotion, so the elephant WILL be pointed out, but it will be done with as little commotion as possible. Being an informing kind of speaker, Fi can be VERY diplomatic about that elephant, because it only involves stating empirical facts (Te), and suggesting meaning (Fi), being careful not to point the finger at people, just the problem. Fe seems to be bossy - this is what's wrong, this is the ONE way you should fix it, and it's the BEST way because it's how everyone else does it. It's important to Fi to allow people to find their own way, their own solutions, so that it will be consistent with their own individual feeling & needs.

    Besides, I find external harmony is a facade when it's not connected to a genuine feeling. It goes back to the feeling that people are working from some script, and what they really mean has to be divined through reading between the lines. The Fe protocol just feels like tons of red tape to cut through.

    My mom even insisted that you "fake it til you feel it", which highlights what I've always thought about Fi vs. Fe. Fi wants to start from the inside and work out, and Fe wants to start on the outside and work in. In a win-win situation, they meet happily in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Isn't it possible Peacebaby to still speak up, but to go about it in a different way? For example, I notice that many of the Fi users on here when they have a problem choose the most public possible way to proclaim it, without checking first to see that they have all the information, or seeing if it could be resolved privately. If the big guns need to be brought in then, you can keep going up the ladder?

    I think the issue is that
    1) You need to figure out why your concern should matter to the other person if it's going to be addressed properly.
    2) You need to keep the other person from losing face, by not embarrassing them unnecessarily or addressing the problem publicly.
    3) Offer a solution that you think would work more as effectively.

    (I'm not saying this about you specifically. It's just a common Fi issue I see coming up in staff meetings etc. If they had spun their issue a slightly different way, the results would have been much better for everyone involved. They weren't wrong to speak up, but they didn't end up getting heard because of the way they went about it). I'd like to understand this better.
    I don't have problems with 2 & 3 (well, a little with 3, when it becomes dictating & not suggesting), and I don't think those are an issue for most Fi-users, but I do take issue with 1. I think I addressed the accusation of Fi-ers throwing public fits above....so I'll move on.

    Generally, with Fi-doms, and with most Fi-auxes, their own sense of individuality makes them acutely aware of others' individuality (and of course, since Fi has no context outside of itself, it needs the perceiving function to do this- why Fi can seem very different via Ne or Se), and so you'll find a hallmark of Fi diplomacy is making an effort to find out what is important to every single individual in the group, because Fi people know this varies, and Fi people don't like to discount someone's feelings simply because they don't fall inline with the majority - feelings are important in themselves; value is NOT determined by external consensus for Fi. This is where you have ENFPs championing the underdog,and INFPs healing those hurt through understanding & listening instead of throwing a stream of cliche advice at them.

    As I highlighted above, I find the Fe-users in my life saying stuff like, "You should do XYZ because it makes people feel good". Often times, they have a point, but at the same time, I think, "How do you know that makes everyone feel good?". There's been a few times I tried to explain to my ISFJ mom how her Fe gestures come across as over-bearing and phony to me, how her conclusions about people can amount to assumptions, but she won't see it. This is why my feelings and perspective are constantly invalidated - they don't fit the external model for how people should feel, and people who use Fe assume that absence of Fe means no feelings, especially no feelings concerning other people. Fi seeks an accurate mode of expression, and Fe seems to seek the most widely accepted mode because its aim is to affect, which cannot be done if people don't comprehend you. It can be a results vs. method problem.

    The method need not be genuine for Fe if the motive is and the results are good. Fi asks for all 3, but will sacrifice results if it means violating an underlying principle - basically, GOOD is not determined by the external results, because good results can come from something bad, and bad come can from something good. Morality is not results dependent for Fi. Doing the right thing can mean you suffer sometimes because it's not popular. It may cause upheaval, but if its necessary to keep integrity, then it's the lesser of two evils.

    To "spin" a reason that is more palatable to people can mean being dishonest about your motive - this is how Fe seems manipulative sometimes. To Fi, this violates a principle that is often bigger than the issue at hand. Honesty is more important than stroking egos. Fi resents the demand for a facade, when the base reason should be perfectly valid in itself.

    Generally, Introverted Feelers don't have much desire to affect those around them with their feelings, and so consensus is not needed for the Fi-dom to be content. What is needed is respect for their feelings, and they in-turn will respect your feelings. When Fi is asserting itself, it often means an issue is affecting them personally (ie. they refuse to be a doormat), or it hits on a global concept of good/bad that affects everyone. When a Fe-er asks for some external validation of a feeling, they are in effect, invalidating Fi. It can also feel like a language barrier - Fe gets metaphorically stuck on grammar sometimes when Fi is doing the best they can to translate something without losing all the meaning.

    Fe people also invalidate Fi when they misunderstand the Fi-ers reasons. They'll assume it's because of XYZ, as that is what the surface problem appears to be or what most people quibble over. For Fi, that surface problem is merely symbolic at most. It's often the underlying meaning, what something implies on a larger scale that Fi is concerned with. I suppose this seems beside the point to Fe (which needs some external justification for it to "matter"), but to Fi, it's the essence of integrity. Without that consistency, there begins to form accepted rules meant to protect principles, but which violates them at times because they are too rigid. Fe social protocol feels "rigid" to Fi at times. To Fe, I think they see it as adapting to the accepted forms in order to communicate clearly and keep relations easy. So Fe is not rigid in that sense, and Fi is, as Fi sees adapting as losing meaning.

    This is concerning where Fi & Fe divide, as again, they can often meet in the middle and have comfortable overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Again, I am wondering why the assumption here is that I or other Fi users are not being diplomatic.
    Yeah...I notice to Fe, diplomacy means being smooth in expression, and to Fi, it means looking out for different needs and perspectives & not invalidating them.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #103
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,121

    Default

    I think you touched on some important points. One that stood out most to me was the idea that Fe is more interested in the end result, while Fi is more interested in precision in expressing the emotion itself. Our goals are entirely different. Therefore it's not surprising that the method is different. Perhaps the issue is that Fe users assume that everyone would be concerned with the end result. I know that I certainly have and so this is what has puzzled me about the way Fi goes about handling some situations.

    The intent vs outcome issue is also huge and I think is one that creates frustration when Fe and Fi users interact.

    I don't know if I agree with you with some of what you said about Fe. I think it is essential to be honest about BOTH method and motive. I may not say everything that is in my head at once, but I sure as anything would not lie or manipulate other people people if I thought it served the greater good. I am just as sickened by that as any of you are. If I know that I am worlds apart from someone in opinion, yes I will look for common ground first, and I will also hold back some of the strength of what I feel, but that does not mean that I would lie about it or that I would be reluctant to say what I thought if the person solicited my opinion.

    I agree that good results can come from something bad and bad results can come from something good, but to me morality is extremely important. I could not justify using bad methods of affecting people's opinions or actions, even if my motives were good. It puzzles me that Fi users often assume that all across the board Fe users do this. It is not a matter of "spinning" a reason that is more palatable to the audience. I believe a situation doesn't have to be win lose. If you can present your own motive ALONG WITH a reason why the other person may have an interest in doing something, it seems to me that you are being honest, but still giving the hearer more information to consider, which is needed to make an informed choice.

    Again, I suppose though that it comes down to results. Even if your reason should be good enough and it is if you are examining it from a valid feeling point of view, it is often not enough to actually produce the outcome which could potentially be beneficial to everyone. Perhaps though the issue is that Fi objects to anyone deciding what might be beneficial, particularly if it applies to anyone other than themselves? I'm not sure about standing behind that statement, just am wondering if that's a factor.

    When Fe asks for external validation of feeling, it is not to stifle others. They are looking for a mirror to reflect how they appear to others and to help give them more information to take back inside as they sort out their own feelings/beliefs about something. They are not trying to force someone to give the right answer. However, if someone comes back with something that seems unexpectedly hostile or strident, they may react with either feelings that it is the other person's problem or their own rather than that they are feelings which are a whole commodity in itself. It will be felt personally in some way, particularly if it is presented in a manner which seems uncaring, hostile or ambushes them.

    Regarding Fe-ers misunderstanding Fi-ers reasons, I think part of the issue is that they often do not have enough information to work with. Like Te makes us feel, Fe seems to put Fi on the spot when they want more explanation to understand those deeper reasons. Yet without that information, it may appear to not make sense, similar to how Ti users seem rather illogical to Te users if they do not understand how Ti is framing the situation and the depth of thought that has gone into what they have considered.

    This is a little jumbley, but those are a few ideas that I'd like to hear more about or understand your perspective better on.

  4. #104
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,121

    Default

    By the way Fi folks, I'm aware that I probably sound a little abrasive and that it evokes reactions similar to how I react to Te. For that I apologize. I don't mean to, but am kind of learning to figure out where the pitfalls are that touch that kind of reaction off. I'm not even sure if this might be one of them. However, please know that I have the best of intentions, even if it isn't well finessed.

  5. #105
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think you touched on some important points. One that stood out most to me was the idea that Fe is more interested in the end result, while Fi is more interested in precision in expressing the emotion itself.
    Yeah, read somewhere (don't remember where now) that to Fe, emotions are the 'means' of achieving something, but to Fi, the emotions are the 'ends' themselves. Not sure how much I believe that but personally I'm usually more interested in figuring out 'why' I'm feeling a certain way as opposed to whether it is right or wrong to feel that way.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  6. #106
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Perhaps though the issue is that Fi objects to anyone deciding what might be beneficial, particularly if it applies to anyone other than themselves? I'm not sure about standing behind that statement, just am wondering if that's a factor.
    That is part of it I think. I'm a firm believer that the best person to solve your problems is yourself. You know, the whole "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he can eat every day" thingy. I'm open to listening and helping with problems if a friend asks for it, and I enjoy watching the way they work out the problem for themselves. I would offer suggestions (some workable, some not) but I rarely would go and tell them exactly what to do and how to do it. This seems to bug some people though, especially the rational types
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #107
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Morality is not results dependent for Fi. Doing the right thing can mean you suffer sometimes because it's not popular. It may cause upheaval, but if its necessary to keep integrity, then it's the lesser of two evils.
    this. i understand Fe diplomacy but i feel like to some extent it often compromises ethics.

    for example, my mom (ESFJ) was waiting in a line at the fair today when she saw a very cruel exchange between a down's syndrome child who complimented a man's backpack and touched it with a single finger, and the man whipping around, glaring at her, and telling her he would appreciate if she would keep her hands away from him. my mom said nothing to him, nor did anyone else - i asked her why not, and she said that he was a bit far away in line and the timing was bad.

    to me, this is frustrating because this man appears to be under some serious misconceptions about down's, first of all - as if it's contagious or something - and secondly, he acted very unkindly regardless. i cannot believe that no one told him off for this, because it offends me so much. he unnecessarily humiliated her when she was doing a kind and, really, fully socially appropriate thing. my mom remarked on this herself - there were people everywhere bumping up against one another - touching his backpack wasn't out of place. and yet society, for the sake of harmony, sat on their asses and watched this poor little chick get roasted for giving him a compliment.

    now, my mom is the kindest, most protective person i know, and she works with special needs kids - obviously she dedicates her life to people like this child. so while i get that it would be weird to hop on down the line to tell someone off in a public place... i STILL wish i could find him and let him know just what i think - because then maybe he would see how much of an asshole he was and change his behavior. lord knows if you got enough ENFPs together we would change his tune real fast. and THIS is pure Fi urgency. his kind of shit needs to stop now, not when it's convenient and harmonious.

    (given, for all i know he could have been surrounded by Fi doms when this occurred. but it's a good example for the sake of demonstration.)

    also - that said - i do agree with the argument that he might not respond well to a somewhat public declaration of how much of an asshole he is (i mean, i wouldn't try to make a scene out of it, he doesn't lose the right to basic human respect just via being an asshole). on the other hand, if approached in quiet, there is no real consequence for him. no real reason to change his behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Perhaps though the issue is that Fi objects to anyone deciding what might be beneficial, particularly if it applies to anyone other than themselves? I'm not sure about standing behind that statement, just am wondering if that's a factor.
    yes, i think this is very accurate. i don't really understand how you can have a confident sense of what is the best for a large group of people unless you know them all very well. i trust, based on experience, that one can, but to hear anyone but a very trusted person i know talk that way puts me on edge. part of the problem is that Fi cannot be totally happy if everyone is not happy (or at least healing), and we always see those people on the fringes who are getting left behind.

    i really appreciate your description of Fe "looking for a mirror". this seems similar to Te, and given that analogy i can understand it better.

    *** fidelia's disclaimer goes for me too. apologies if my writing style about these kinds of things grates on anyone.

  8. #108
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Hmmm...I don't know if what you're describing is Fe or Fi...here's why: ENFPs like to defend other people. I am notorious for sticking up for my friends or for people whom I like, even if I wasn't asked to do so. I've actually had an ISFJ ask me why I feel a need to defend certain people. But I only do it with people I have a feeling of affection for. In case you haven't noticed, there's a buttload of Fi users (ENFPs and INTJs mostly) who loudly complain when one of their friends is banned or something. There are entire fifty page threads on the topic.

    Fe, on the other hand, cares about stuff that doesn't involve them - in extremely conservative cases, they even care if random people on the street are homosexual. Even in more liberal cases, Fe users will police people that they feel no particular attachment for, not for any personal protective reason, but more for a sense of keeping what they feel is moral order. In the cases I'm talking about specifically on this forum, there are people who will complain about ANY disruption or strange or overly expressive behavior even if it doesn't affect them or their friends. It's more like an obsession with keeping order, at least that's what it looks like to me as someone with Fi.
    That's Fe or Te in tandem with Si half of the time though. Ni is going to come off more detached and universalistic, or police more from a point of generalities. That's why both types of NF are put in the idealist temperment. They are not "guardians", and often try to redefine what Si would suggest what the "moral order" even is.

  9. #109
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    That's Fe or Te in tandem with Si half of the time though. Ni is going to come off more detached and universalistic, or police more from a point of generalities. That's why both types of NF are put in the idealist temperment. They are not "guardians", and often try to redefine what Si would suggest what the "moral order" even is.
    One of the people that I'm thinking of is INTP so I guess that's Si and Fe in tandem, though not the way you're suggesting.

    I see ENTPs enforcing Fe sometimes, too.

  10. #110
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    I definitely lean towards Fe rule enforcement on here, not because I Heart Rules, but because having some order makes it easier to keep a discussion on track, and I like to see people's drama kept to a minimum. I have zero problem with people expressing themselves, but when we're having an interesting discussion and it turns into three pages of flirting or three pages of YOUR MOM IS RETARDED AND SO ARE YOU, it becomes very frustrating, and it's difficult to keep the ideas flowing. Have that discussion in the "your mom is retarded" thread.
    Something Witty

Similar Threads

  1. When Fe meets Fi......
    By RedAmazoneFriendZone in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 05-15-2016, 08:09 AM
  2. Fe vs. Fi, Disloyalty, Allegiance, Or the Lack Thereof…
    By Esoteric Wench in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 07:55 PM
  3. [NT] Fe and Fi, the NT version
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 04-20-2010, 09:55 AM
  4. Let's end the Fe/Ti - Fi/Te wars once and for all...
    By onemoretime in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-16-2010, 12:00 PM
  5. Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?
    By sofmarhof in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 02-23-2010, 03:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO