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  1. #51
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Back to the topic at hand, the sad revelation I've had, which is... For some strange reason I have comfortably found myself in romantic relationships with men who were neither emotionally, nor mentally as deep as I. Our relationship would consist of eating, sleeping, and sexually pleasing each other. A coexistence sans any mental stimulation... is something wrong with this?
    Wrong? Right? No such thing without some end in mind. If your end is to find a satisfying relationship that allows you to express yourself with companionship and intimacy, then we can go somewhere.

    I think the answer depends on two things:

    1. Why do you choose people like this? Are you avoiding rejection from people who might be able to challenge you? Do you feel less self-conscious around people you know you can dominate? Both? Something else?

    2. What types of relationships are you actually forming? Do they satisfy you? Do you feel understood intellectually? Emotionally? Spiritually? Your reference to men as dogs and your ex being emotionally shallow says "no." In that case, we could say that you need to dig deeper and explore why you hold your attitudes and act the way you do, making choices that cut yourself short.

    I wonder what it would be like to be with another "Philosopher Poet", would it be like fucking yourself? Would it be utterly exhausting, and therefore ultimately not worth it?
    1. I not get exhausted from fucking myself. As my roommate.
    2. It could be tiring, but that depends on how you create your relationship and what types of patterns and habits you mold during the formative stages and maintain throughout the course of your relationship. I don't think this is reducible to type; it goes beyond that.

    Can a relationship consist of, and persist with two NFs?
    I thought you were an ENTP, but regardless, of course it can. Why shouldn't it? The "NF" label lacks vital information like: "what does it take to make you calm and present?" "can you do it on your own?" "are you codependent?" "what are you looking for in a mate?" "are you assertive and wise?" "are you mature and experienced?" etc.

    My intuition: Maybe you like being admired by people who are less skilled in your stronger areas. A challenging person scares you into self-consciousness so you tend to avoid it. You're looking for something deeper, judging by the fact that you posted this thread. Maybe taking a break from dating would help so you can do some introspection.

  2. #52
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrongvk12 View Post
    I think by nature STs pull people down to earth. I think someone on this thread or another thread in the NF community compared ST to a stone being tied to a balloon (NF). Too much for me....on a long term basis....they stifle my creativity and do not really understand the N...in the ENxJ. I need a break from them after extended periods of time. I can't take too much of the shallow conversation about coupons, tv programs, gossip, etc.
    argh...Coupons ! That has got to be in my top 10 of most annoying subjects ever (& you can be sure my gf knows it.). Just talking about it gives me headaches.
    I've been with my gf for years & I think she learned to appreciate my N side. She even admires it.

    I'm pretty sure my romantic ideal is another NF, but since I happen to live on earth & not utopia, I'm actually very glad I'm in a long term relation with an ST. She guides me through certain aspects of society that I'm generally not too comfortable with. Especially basic, evident things like doing grosseries together and sorts. And yet we also have an emotional connection somehow, which is obviously a necessity for me (F).

  3. #53
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    I disagree... from my experience, the people you will find doing "deep" things are the people who consider themselves deep, whether they are or not.

    Frankly, I think MBTI has zero relation to intelligence (sorry NTs!) No matter what type you find, if they are unintelligent, then they are going to lack the ability to understand you to the depth that you're looking for.
    I knew I disagreed with this statement when I read it last night, but now I'm clear on why. If you're interested in finding other sports fans, you go to a sports bar/team game. If you're interested in finding auto enthusiasts, hang around the parking lot outside a car parts store. You find the niche that you want to draw from. Are there sports poseurs? Ummm... yes! Are there teenagers strapping beer can mufflers on their Corollas? Yes. Are they obnoxious? Are they found in the same place as the honest to god enthusiast? Yes and yes.

    "Depth" is, admittedly, harder to define. I would say it is the active search for something more than surface meaning in the world. This search tends to drive people in certain directions (ex. libraries and lectures) along with, unfortunately, the people muttering how "no one understands me, i shall write poetry about blood and black roses cuz that's cool..."

    Doesn't mean the deep people aren't there to be found and, more importantly, it doesn't mean deep people are the be-all end-all of personality types. They're impractical, often inefficient, and detached (to one extent or another) from reality. These are not everyone's idea of a good time!

    It also doesn't mean depth = above average intelligence. Just because you're looking for something beneath the surface of the world doesn't mean you're smart enough to find it! On the flipside, just because you're more interested in the concrete realities doesn't mean you're not utterly BRILLIANT. It's about how you view the world, not how well you view it, and only sheer prejudice skews that fact.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  4. #54
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    CaptainChick, could you give me some examples of how you'd like your guy to be? Feel free to be as idealistic as you want to.
    -he'd be an atheist, or an agnostic, but either way, generally disdainful towards organized religion

    -he'd be what I consider to be intelligent, which by my definition includes being an abstract thinker, one who tends to question the validity of things, being an independent thinker, as well as a critical thinker, oh and well versed in the language of logic.

    -he'd be imaginative

    -he'd have a dark sense of humor

    -he'd be pragmatic

    -he'd be great with his hands, technical, and love to build things

    -he'd be honest, honest, honest, with a large side of integrity

    -he'd be a naturalist, who duh...loves nature

    -he'd be quirky,and very much so an individual

    -he'd be affectionate, yet not smothering

    -he'd love and adore me

    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    What are you really looking for?
    I am really looking for a partner in crime, adventure, love and living.


    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    And what happens when you're with someone who's not deep? Do you hide your own depth, or do you share it, only to be disappointed by the lack of reciprocation and excitement?
    I just end up being a bit more introspective when in their company.

    I don't hide my depth, or intelligence for that matter, I just withhold it a bit, or a lot. But sometimes I share my depth.

    But overall, I am interested in people, and even the dullest person out there still, is quite complex and therefore interesting.

  5. #55
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    1. Why do you choose people like this? Are you avoiding rejection from people who might be able to challenge you? Do you feel less self-conscious around people you know you can dominate? Both? Something else?
    -I choose people like this because they're good, and they serve a purpose, that is, to help me appreciate men, and through being with them, I work on my intimacy.

    -no way, I love being challenged.

    nope, I rarely feel self-conscious, and I have never been domineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    2. What types of relationships are you actually forming? Do they satisfy you? Do you feel understood intellectually? Emotionally? Spiritually? Your reference to men as dogs and your ex being emotionally shallow says "no." In that case, we could say that you need to dig deeper and explore why you hold your attitudes and act the way you do, making choices that cut yourself short.
    Please re-read my original post. Because this response clearly tells me you not only misread things, but that you overlooked things as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    My intuition: Maybe you like being admired by people who are less skilled in your stronger areas. A challenging person scares you into self-consciousness so you tend to avoid it. You're looking for something deeper, judging by the fact that you posted this thread. Maybe taking a break from dating would help so you can do some introspection.
    My intuition: Your intuition needs some major retuning.

  6. #56
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    I'm pretty sure my romantic ideal is another NF, but since I happen to live on earth & not utopia, I'm actually very glad I'm in a long term relation with an ST. She guides me through certain aspects of society that I'm generally not too comfortable with. Especially basic, evident things like doing grosseries together and sorts. And yet we also have an emotional connection somehow, which is obviously a necessity for me (F).
    You're a lucky man, and I'm envious of what you got. It seems pretty ideal to me.

    *sighs*

  7. #57
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    I knew I disagreed with this statement when I read it last night, but now I'm clear on why. If you're interested in finding other sports fans, you go to a sports bar/team game. If you're interested in finding auto enthusiasts, hang around the parking lot outside a car parts store. You find the niche that you want to draw from. Are there sports poseurs? Ummm... yes! Are there teenagers strapping beer can mufflers on their Corollas? Yes. Are they obnoxious? Are they found in the same place as the honest to god enthusiast? Yes and yes.
    True

    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    "Depth" is, admittedly, harder to define. I would say it is the active search for something more than surface meaning in the world. This search tends to drive people in certain directions (ex. libraries and lectures) along with, unfortunately, the people muttering how "no one understands me, i shall write poetry about blood and black roses cuz that's cool..."
    True

    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Doesn't mean the deep people aren't there to be found and, more importantly, it doesn't mean deep people are the be-all end-all of personality types. They're impractical, often inefficient, and detached (to one extent or another) from reality. These are not everyone's idea of a good time!

    It also doesn't mean depth = above average intelligence. Just because you're looking for something beneath the surface of the world doesn't mean you're smart enough to find it! On the flipside, just because you're more interested in the concrete realities doesn't mean you're not utterly BRILLIANT. It's about how you view the world, not how well you view it, and only sheer prejudice skews that fact.
    And this is where I disagree with you.

    It has been in my experience that sincerely deep people, whether they be of the emotional, or intellectual variety, were in fact highly intelligent.

    And I believe it is not only about "how" one views their world, but perhaps even more importantly, about how "well", one perceives the world.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I thought you were an ENTP, but regardless, of course it can.
    I was thinking the same thing. She doesn't seem much like the other female ENFPs I know, either on this forum or real life. Her attitude actually reminds me a little bit of digest.

    Not that type even matters...

  9. #59
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    -I choose people like this because they're good, and they serve a purpose, that is, to help me appreciate men, and through being with them, I work on my intimacy.
    So lets see:

    Men "serve a purpose,"
    You "view men as dogs," and
    You use men to "work on your intimacy"

    It sounds like you use men as tools for your own enjoyment and amusement instead of forming deep connections. Your entire post admits to not forming deep connection. The question still remains, why? You say you "choose" this. I say you're deluding yourself: you are uncomfortable with real vulnerability, so you objectify men in order to be able to keep your distance but still appear like you're engaging in relationships. You rationalize this process by characterizing it as a "preference," but you know something's up, so you started this thread.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    I knew I disagreed with this statement...
    I see it differently. Depth is an off-hand way of referring to perception. How far someone can see past the obvious. You either have it or you don't... it could possibly be developed, but if that was the case, I'd still say the person had it in the first place but never got used to using it.

    Your analogy of sports fans doesn't really apply because, yet again, you're referring to the interest towards something rather than the ability. To recycle the idea, it would be more like thinking sports fans are they themselves good at sports instead of most often being out-of-shape middle-aged men living vicariously through the success and failures their favorite players or team (or at least, that's how the stereotype goes)

    To illustrate where I'm coming from... many often times misinterpret me as being critical of high level philosophy and mathematics when I say they are "useless" considerations of most people (using that word loosely)... this is because I see through these things to the other side to find that they are, for many, a form of mental exercise that provides entertainment. That is a fine reason to participate in them, in my opinion, but these people often mistake the practice as deeply implicative in some manner.

    Seeing as I don't personally take a huge interest in mental exercise that doesn't result in tangible results besides entertainment value, and thus often choose not to participate in them, does that mean I am not a perceptive person? My point: whether or not someone is looking for depth has little or no bearing on how perceptive of a person they are.

    Simply put, wanting something doesn't make it reality. Reality and one's ability to impact their will in it is the only real judge of anything.

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