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  1. #21
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    You know that train of thought that holds that kids already know how to live life and that we just unlearn as the years pass? That's kind of how I see it.

    "Learning" for me sounds more like "unlearning". You had a vision, and you fuck up as you go along...you start listen to other people, to society, you adapt...you become more "realistic" and less idealistic...you hear the naysayers....you lose faith in your own beliefs...and in the end...you lost what made you different in the first place. You lost your innocence.
    Umm.. I see what you're saying. But, it probably won't surprise you that I don't necessarily view my initial self - my child self - as 'right'. I WANT to keep adding to my knowledge base, and a big part of who I am and how I see myself - so, in essence, ME - is my belief that I don't necessarily believe or have faith in my initial beliefs. I might be wrong, I might change my mind, and I don't see that as a loss of myself, I see that as a learning of myself. A finding of myself. A honing. A creating. Truly.

    I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you - I mean, I see your point. I just view things differently, and that's what, well, makes us different. Big lol!

    As for mistakes, I get what you are saying. I guess, to use an extreme example, it's like : once a cheater always a cheater. I'd never trust someone who cheated on me again...as I think that reveals something about the person's character. It's not like the other person is the devil for cheating...still human...but i don't want anything to do with that person ya know? Now make that a little broader...other mistakes reveal something about your personality too.
    Oh, I think I'm pretty similar. I definitely look at peoples' past behaviors and patterns, and those patterns are of utmost importance to me. I don't disregard those patterns or those indications of what might lie deeper.

    ------

    Re. the bolded piece, I was just referring to what you said about judging people based on their past records and behaviors. Simply that if you met up with an nfj who did drugs in the past, but you yourself didn't particularly think that was indicative or anything or it didn't bother you, then it wouldn't be a skeleton in the closet for you. Whereas if you did feel strongly about their sexual history in some way, and felt that was indicative of deeper elements of their character, then with another nfj who happened to have a history of a lot of casual sex, that would be a big skeleton for you and you'd probably not want to get involved because THAT would be indicative of things - perhaps different things - in their psychae.

    In any event, I definitely look at underlying motivations for behaviors and such when it comes to relationships.... so I do a similar thing to you there, I think. We each just have different tolerance levels when it comes to one skeleton or another.

    I apologize if that makes no sense or doesn't answer the question.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I need my ideals to survive road tests in reality. That makes them more authentic to me, not less.
    If that were true...I'd never believe in being good to other people in the first place. That's the whole point behind idealism...and the axis of this issue for me really....the point is that it's NOT reality. But you want it to be even if it doesn't look feasible.

  3. #23
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    "Learning" for me sounds more like "unlearning". You had a vision, and you fuck up as you go along...you start listen to other people, to society, you adapt...you become more "realistic" and less idealistic...you hear the naysayers....you lose faith in your own beliefs...and in the end...you lost what made you different in the first place. You lost your innocence.
    *le sigh*

    I could not have said it better. It is important to have the roots from which individuality grows. Times when I was like this young lady mentioned, I felt my roots had been ripped out. But then I came to think, were there even any roots in the first place? Was I still in the seed, in my own little confined world? What is it that I have to do to gain some ground here? I'm just fucking being blown around, thinking I'm actually DOING something when I wasn't doing anything at all. I let my idealism and concept of innocence blind me. So I let go of the idealism for the while, and just opened up a lot more from a personal perspective.

    It was...hmm..self-preservation in a way.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Umm.. I see what you're saying. But, it probably won't surprise you that I don't necessarily view my initial self - my child self - as 'right'. I WANT to keep adding to my knowledge base, and a big part of who I am and how I see myself - so, in essence, ME - is my belief that I don't necessarily believe or have faith in my initial beliefs. I might be wrong, I might change my mind, and I don't see that as a loss of myself, I see that as a learning of myself. A finding of myself. A honing. A creating. Truly.

    I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you - I mean, I see your point. I just view things differently, and that's what, well, makes us different. Big lol!
    Sure, but just to clarify, childhood was just a metaphor. It's not like I'm exactly like I was as a kid (I mean, I was a christian for example and now am agnostic). But there is a point when a lot of who you are is cemented onto your brain. Like empathy for other for example. The "you" that was most constant throughout the years, and to which you have to be true.


    In any event, I definitely look at underlying motivations for behaviors and such when it comes to relationships.... so I do a similar thing to you there, I think. We each just have different tolerance levels when it comes to one skeleton or another.
    Oh sure, I get it now. Sort of a tangent question here : has your tolerance level for things that are/were really important to you changed throughout the years? And has your tolerance ever been put to the test and you were left not knowing what to believe in anymore?


    I apologize if that makes no sense or doesn't answer the question.
    No, that made a lot of sense It's nice to talk with people who think about values and value systems. Makes me feel normal.

  5. #25
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    If that were true...I'd never believe in being good to other people in the first place. That's the whole point behind idealism...and the axis of this issue for me really....the point is that it's NOT reality. But you want it to be even if it doesn't look feasible.
    I don't know how it is for other people or types, but I know I'm always going to have a foot in the world of SHOULD BE and a foot in the world of IS.

    SHOULD BE is always going to be the ideal, but IS cannot be ignored so I have to come up with a way of living that doesn't violate my sense of SHOULD BE too much, but allows me to function in IS.

    Since I'm a Christian, I think of it in terms of being as 'wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove.' I want to live by my ideals as much as possible while incurring as little harm to myself as possible and achieving what I want to achieve in life as much as is possible within the constraints of reality and the ideal. All of this must be taken into consideration when I decide how I will act.

    Ways of living are generally associated with outcomes and outcomes are important to Js, I think. I know that I have a way of looking at things backwards, so to speak. I always start a journey at the destination and mentally step backwards until I know the first step I need to take in real life. If new information shows me that my current path does not actually lead to the destination I had in mind or (eek!) shows me that the original destination is not what I want now or not what I thought it was or maybe that place doesn't actually exist, then I have to make a course correction. It can be a minor adjustment or it can be a huge upheaval of thrashing around.

    I think it's possible the INFJ has decided that maybe her original destination doesn't actually exist or maybe she isn't sure she wants to go there or maybe she can't see the next step because she thought she was on the right path but led to totally the wrong place, so she is thrashing around right now.

    I would say that eventually in her thrashing her hand will graze something solid and she will grab hold of it and pull herself back onto the path, but it might not be a path to the same place she originally wanted.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #26
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    ^Exactly. That's my whole point. So long destination.

    I actually go about it differently. I believe that if I choose good paths, it will always take me to a nice destination. I don't plan ahead...but the here and now, the current decisions and actions have to jive with my values at all times.

    It's like...if you are going to build a building, the foundations must be strong, and I always make sure of that. I do not allow myself to set a lesser stone into place because then the finished building won't be a great one since I've just justified my way out of having to always set a good stone....which makes it more likely I'll set more shitty stones as time goes by. So much for wanting to build the most awesome building ever....

    Quote Originally Posted by Quay
    *le sigh*

    I could not have said it better. It is important to have the roots from which individuality grows. Times when I was like this young lady mentioned, I felt my roots had been ripped out. But then I came to think, were there even any roots in the first place? Was I still in the seed, in my own little confined world? What is it that I have to do to gain some ground here? I'm just fucking being blown around, thinking I'm actually DOING something when I wasn't doing anything at all. I let my idealism and concept of innocence blind me. So I let go of the idealism for the while, and just opened up a lot more from a personal perspective.

    It was...hmm..self-preservation in a way.
    Could you elaborate? Self-preservation why? Because you didn't want to believe what you did was wrong and uncalled for by your standards?

    I don't get that big paragraph You start by agreeing that roots are important...but at the same time your concept of innocence blinded you? What did you really learn then?

  7. #27
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Sure, but just to clarify, childhood was just a metaphor. It's not like I'm exactly like I was as a kid (I mean, I was a christian for example and now am agnostic). But there is a point when a lot of who you are is cemented onto your brain. Like empathy for other for example. The "you" that was most constant throughout the years, and to which you have to be true.
    Yes, at times I have felt I have strayed too far off the path of 'Me' and so have found my way back, and striven to regain/search for those constants. But always with added nuances and little tweaks to the path based on what I learned from straying off.


    Oh sure, I get it now. Sort of a tangent question here : has your tolerance level for things that are/were really important to you changed throughout the years?
    For things that are truly important to me, I don't think so. It's really difficult to speak so generally here, but I'll give a little example: Care for, respect, and preservation of the environment has always been of utmost important to me, so my tolerance level for those who are on the complete opposite end of the spectrum isn't ever going to change, and I'm not close to anyone who doesn't hold similar views, honestly.

    So I definitely have core things that are quite solid and that I don't see changing.

    A contrasting/different example, but maybe it will be useful in illustrating all of this. When younger, and even in my early 20's... basically, prior to any serious, impactful relationship... I was more black and white in terms of my view of divorce. I basically viewed most divorcees as lacking in good judgment - either in who they were and not knowing what they wanted/needed, or their choice of a partner, or their motivation to get married in the first place was poor... so that would have been a significant mark in the negative in terms of my view of them and my wanting to be in a relationship with them. Since then, after being in some relationships, and having dated quite a bit, and having viewed friends going through divorces, the entire area is much greyer for me, and my tolerance isn't nearly as black and white - it's much more finetuned, and dependent on each person/scenario, etc.

    And has your tolerance ever been put to the test and you were left not knowing what to believe in anymore?
    I don't know if 'tolerance' is the right word for this, but after my first love, and it not working out, my notion of what love was (and what relationships were, and what People were in any given moment of life) was severely compromised and it took me several years to reconfigure everything.

    I'm sure there are examples specific to the tolerance concept, but I'd have to think a bit more. Will post later if I think of something totally relevant.

    No, that made a lot of sense It's nice to talk with people who think about values and value systems. Makes me feel normal.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  8. #28
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Could you elaborate? Self-preservation why? Because you didn't want to believe what you did was wrong and uncalled for by your standards?

    I don't get that big paragraph You start by agreeing that roots are important...but at the same time your concept of innocence blinded you? What did you really learn then?
    Sorry for confusing you, really..

    I was dead wrong for believing I was right. lol. nail on head

    Self-preservation because I thought I was doing the correct thing and I wasn't. My concept of what the world should be was blasted open right in front of me, like "oh shit wait...this is not what I thought this was.". I started scrambling to catch hold of some reality.

    And what I initially perceived was not at all according to worldly standards, just my "innocence" and idealism and not really factoring in what was outside of me and my inner world. So I had to try and re-establish myself, and factor in what I'd left out....there was a great deal of selfishness that came with that idealism and innocence.

    The roots are important. I thought I was rooted and I wasn't.

  9. #29
    Member Affably Evil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laudanum225 View Post
    around my infj friends there is this one girl, quite smart, strong moral backbone etc (usually), artsy (a painter and graphic designer), basically fits the description of the infj in every way possible...

    i am asking this because apart from her, all my other infj friends, male or female, including me, have a tendency to be flirty but very choosy on whom to date, etc
    Now I'm not saying this behavior is impossible, since there's already been a great deal of discussion of how this kind of behavior INFJs can get involved with, but is it possible that she's been mistyped? I'd argue that being smart, having a strong moral backbone, and being artsy can all be attributed to a number of types. Has she taken the test, and if she did, how did she react to her result?

    I ask this because if she has been mistyped it'll give you a better idea understanding her state of mind right now, whether it's unhealthy behavior and figuring out how you want to deal with it. It might very well be healthy behavior for her, even though for your own type it could be something you'd judge as unhealthy. Which would help you with this:

    is she in trouble? can i help? should i just let it go and not worry about it? i mean, she is my friend and i just worry that she may be doing something she later regrets.

  10. #30
    Member Affably Evil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    You know that train of thought that holds that kids already know how to live life and that we just unlearn as the years pass? That's kind of how I see it.

    "Learning" for me sounds more like "unlearning". You had a vision, and you fuck up as you go along...you start listen to other people, to society, you adapt...you become more "realistic" and less idealistic...you hear the naysayers....you lose faith in your own beliefs...and in the end...you lost what made you different in the first place. You lost your innocence.

    As for mistakes, I get what you are saying. I guess, to use an extreme example, it's like : once a cheater always a cheater. I'd never trust someone who cheated on me again...as I think that reveals something about the person's character. It's not like the other person is the devil for cheating...still human...but i don't want anything to do with that person ya know? Now make that a little broader...other mistakes reveal something about your personality too.
    Learning is unlearning? And what, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength?

    I know you're talking about learning from experience here, but it holds for learning from positive experiences just as well as the negative ones. I don't agree that the best state is the most innocent state, because one of my credos is "All knowledge is worth having." Not that you'd want to know something or that you're happy to know it, but knowing more gives you more options, more choices, and expands your reality.

    Going with your metaphor, a perfectly innocent human would have no capacity for forgiveness, because they'd've never had someone hurt them. They wouldn't need to understand compassion. Being hurt is a terrible experience, and we don't want it to happen to people, but at the same time as you go through life you'll experience wonderful things and terrible things and how you react to them, how you cultivate yourself, is how you grow and become a person. I think that as we grow older and accumulate experiences, our underlying core personality does not change, merely reveals successive versions of ourselves. And it's up to us to make sure that those versions are the best possible versions of ourselves that we can be. And a lot of that is being able to deal with harsh, hurtful realities and, as an NF not giving up on the ideals that you believe in — or being able to amend your ideals to include more of your new understanding of reality. That doesn't mean having to dump everything and starting from scratch all over again, though that's how some people do choose to go about it.

    I don't think that being realistic and being idealistic are incompatible. Being realistic is seeing the world as how it is. Being idealistic is being able to imagine the world as it should be.

    People can fail you, and hurt you, and not live up to what you believed them to be. But that doesn't mean that they can't be that person that you believed in. It just means they're human.

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