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  1. #11
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I don't think it would be impossible, no. For myself, I would look at that interim 'phase' with disgust, probably, with a good dose of self-loathing, but would also be able to say I simply didn't know enough about myself at the time, and through that process learned. But through discussions with another nfp, I think this can be one key difference.. just the ability of the nfj to maybe 'flow' a bit more and have identity altering/morphing throughout life, and that doesn't imply a contradiction necessarily.
    Yeah, that's the impression I get. My INFJ brother seems to be like that too. I can't fit that concept in my head though.

    I can see myself going through identity "distillation" throughout life...in that it's still the same and didn't change...only was made more aware of how it truly is....but it's not bound by experience. I'm not an SP, so I don't need to learn by experience....I know how I'd feel if I killed someone, and that applies to less significant events too.That phase of disgust and self-loathing you talk about, could last a lifetime for me for example.

    Changing by experience is just cognitive dissonance that my brain overcomes by throwing previously-held values to the trash can along with most of my personality.

  2. #12
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    INFJs who are into casual sex are almost as common as INFPs who are into skinning live kittens in my experience. I guess she's just scared to get into another emotionally-involved relationship given her recent history. I don't really know what I'd do in a situation like that. Run sabotage?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You can do something, decided it was not a good thing to have done, and hold a value that says that doing that particular thing is not good without, IMO, being a hypocrite.
    That's the thing. I see it in a broader context. If I ever have a son who asks me for advice...and if he could learn only be experience.....it kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of learning all these lessons if the same "mistakes" keep being made.

    And we judge other people based on their records and actions. I hate skeletons in the closet, specially in relationships. My way of showing people they can trust me, is via a clean record in certain areas. Maybe I'm just naive.

  4. #14
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    That's the thing. I see it in a broader context. If I ever have a son who asks me for advice...and if he could learn only be experience.....it kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of learning all these lessons if the same "mistakes" keep being made.

    And we judge other people based on their records and actions. I hate skeletons in the closet, specially in relationships. My way of showing people they can trust me, is via a clean record in certain areas. Maybe I'm just naive.
    Well, it's not like infj's are going to dabble in everything willy-nilly, going from drugs to sex to one religion to another to being a bum to being a stockbroker... I mean, there will probably be a few little key areas/ issues in life where the uncertainty is already present. In other areas of life they may remain quite solid and unwavering. infj's are still going to put quite a lot of thought into the why's as to what they're doing.... the key/necessity for you would just be to sync up with one whose values ('clean record in certain areas') alligns with what is important to you.

    And, re. mistakes... I think we're always learning and will rarely make the same mistake twice. Sometimes we do, but we definitely take everything from our experiences and what we build from those, and utilize that going forward, hopefully with a more complete 'picture'.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #15
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    That's the thing. I see it in a broader context. If I ever have a son who asks me for advice...and if he could learn only be experience.....it kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of learning all these lessons if the same "mistakes" keep being made.

    And we judge other people based on their records and actions. I hate skeletons in the closet, specially in relationships. My way of showing people they can trust me, is via a clean record in certain areas. Maybe I'm just naive.
    I don't feel qualified to really say at least in terms of this area because it's not something I've gone through. I had one short failed romantic relationship that did not involve sex when I was in my late teens. I started my only sexual relationship at 21 and at 40, I'm still in that relationship and happy with it.

    I generally don't need to make a lot of mistakes myself, but with a lot of the practical stuff that other people seem to just know, I have problems. It goes back to the idealist stuff. I'm a True Believer. I believed all the stuff about don't do drugs, stay in school, work hard, be honest, money can't buy happiness, etc. I thought if you did that stuff, your life would be good. It turns out there is a lot more to it than that and you can do all the right stuff and still wind up in the projects.

    That I had to learn the hard way and so now I teach my children to get good grades so they won't have to take out student loans and how you are perceived by others matters because others can effect your life for good or for ill (even though I was always told that it's not the outside that counts, but your heart).

    I could see how an INFJ could hold similar ideals about relationships, then have those ideals blow up in her face and react to it by throwing those ideals out the window completely for awhile while coming to terms with the disconnect. Eventually the pendulum would settle somewhere in the middle as balance between reality and ideals was reached.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #16
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    And like cascadeco says, we tend to see ourselves as evolving and growing, so we are aware that some of those stages are unattractive and not as constructive as they could have been, but still a growing experience that helped us to evolve and develop new perspectives and refine our values.
    This...and I think that a part of establishing morality for self (INFJ way I guess) is being able to sift and wade through experiences in life. There are things I did 1 year ago that I would never do again, but I had the experiences and was able to establish personal boundaries from them. And a lot of times, something felt right at a particular moment and I dove right in.

    I've also come to learn that every meaningful connection does not have to last a lifetime in a physical sense, where I'm always around the person or we are in some deep relationship. It can be a learning experience for everyone involved, and then on everyone goes with their lives having gained a new perspective on how the universe and people work. (or something like that, pardon me, still haven't gotten through this first cup of coffee...)

  7. #17
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quay View Post
    This...and I think that a part of establishing morality for self (INFJ way I guess) is being able to sift and wade through experiences in life. There are things I did 1 year ago that I would never do again, but I had the experiences and was able to establish personal boundaries from them. And a lot of times, something felt right at a particular moment and I dove right in.

    I've also come to learn that every meaningful connection does not have to last a lifetime in a physical sense, where I'm always around the person or we are in some deep relationship. It can be a learning experience for everyone involved, and then on everyone goes with their lives having gained a new perspective on how the universe and people work. (or something like that, pardon me, still haven't gotten through this first cup of coffee...)
    Relate very much to this!

    +1 to cafe's post as well. Definitely. Particularly this - I think it describes our approach to many things pretty well:
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    I could see how an INFJ could hold similar ideals about relationships, then have those ideals blow up in her face and react to it by throwing those ideals out the window completely for awhile while coming to terms with the disconnect. Eventually the pendulum would settle somewhere in the middle as balance between reality and ideals was reached.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  8. #18
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Well, it's not like infj's are going to dabble in everything willy-nilly, going from drugs to sex to one religion to another to being a bum to being a stockbroker... I mean, there will probably be a few little key areas/ issues in life where the uncertainty is already present. In other areas of life they may remain quite solid and unwavering. infj's are still going to put quite a lot of thought into the why's as to what they're doing.... the key/necessity for you would just be to sync up with one whose values ('clean record in certain areas') alligns with what is important to you.

    And, re. mistakes... I think we're always learning and will rarely make the same mistake twice. Sometimes we do, but we definitely take everything from our experiences and what we build from those, and utilize that going forward, hopefully with a more complete 'picture'.
    You know that train of thought that holds that kids already know how to live life and that we just unlearn as the years pass? That's kind of how I see it.

    "Learning" for me sounds more like "unlearning". You had a vision, and you fuck up as you go along...you start listen to other people, to society, you adapt...you become more "realistic" and less idealistic...you hear the naysayers....you lose faith in your own beliefs...and in the end...you lost what made you different in the first place. You lost your innocence.

    As for mistakes, I get what you are saying. I guess, to use an extreme example, it's like : once a cheater always a cheater. I'd never trust someone who cheated on me again...as I think that reveals something about the person's character. It's not like the other person is the devil for cheating...still human...but i don't want anything to do with that person ya know? Now make that a little broader...other mistakes reveal something about your personality too.


    Oh and can you explain the bold part?

  9. #19
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I need my ideals to survive road tests in reality. That makes them more authentic to me, not less.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #20
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I could see how an INFJ could hold similar ideals about relationships, then have those ideals blow up in her face and react to it by throwing those ideals out the window completely for awhile while coming to terms with the disconnect. Eventually the pendulum would settle somewhere in the middle as balance between reality and ideals was reached.
    I admire you guys for it. I can never throw an ideal completely out the window.....without devolving into a misanthrope and losing interest in life and becoming bored and unmotivated and fatalistic.


    As for learning though in the context of life : I don't get this "constantly learning" concept. Learning in itself has little to no value to me. If it doesn't improve my life in any way. I could go on to do stupid stuff and learn from it.......you can learn something everytime you do anything...but is it relevant? Are you a better person after you made the mistake and overcame it? Do other people think so to? Do other people still respect you? etc

    I don't believe in reincarnation or anything...so if I'm learning something it's better to be relevant for this lifetime :P

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