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  1. #1
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Question "[They] lack defenses against things other types take in stride"

    David Keirsey said this about Idealist children when they find themselves in conflictual situations:

    "These children, especially if reserved, lack defenses against things the other types take in stride. For example, these children are devastated by conflict, and if reared in a home where the parents quarrel a good deal, they are apt to become withdrawn and insecure."
    -David Keirsey, Please Understand Me II

    I find this to be still true for me, and I will often volunteer for blame or readily believe I am to blame. What are your experiences with this?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    True for me as well.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  3. #3
    Kultainen Kuningas Devil Flamingo's Avatar
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    Eh, not me. Growing up in a verbally violent home made me verbally violent and not conflict-avoidant at all. XD I cannot say that growing up in such a household didn't affect me at all, but for the most part, I think I've turned out alright? I'm not withdrawn or insecure (except when it comes to a couple of things) and the weekly conflicts my family had only made my skin thicker.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil Flamingo View Post
    Eh, not me. Growing up in a verbally violent home made me verbally violent and not conflict-avoidant at all. XD I cannot say that growing up in such a household didn't affect me at all, but for the most part, I think I've turned out alright? I'm not withdrawn or insecure (except when it comes to a couple of things) and the weekly conflicts my family had only made my skin thicker.
    It made me not afraid of conflict, argumentative and prone to profane language (also a tendency to hurt with accuracy) but because of that or along with that I am withdrawn and most definitely insecure (both were worse when I was younger but are getting better) because I'm always questioning what people see or really mean. I think I was withdrawn because I'd seen that no good comes from associating with others and I just couldn't think of being happy or anything but miserable (or hateful as my grandmother would say which is true I hated the world and I still do) because my nest was/is miserable.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  5. #5
    Kultainen Kuningas Devil Flamingo's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I'm beginning to understand what you meant. I actually used to be withdrawn and insecure too, so obviously back then it was affecting me indeed, but then when I was 14, my mom re-married and we (me, her and my two siblings) came to Canada, and slowly after that I started coming out of my shell and becoming more confident. It must be that I finally got away from that kind of environment that made it possible for me to change... Do you still live with your family and/or see them on a regular basis? Some household environments are really just... toxic, for lack of a better word. Got to get away before you can get better...
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Toxic is definitely the word for it and yeah, I'm still stuck inside of it. Hopefully, that will change.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  7. #7
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    I can relate to a lot of what is said here -- toxic environments with a lot of conflict between the parents carrying over into children's demeanors, which then interacts with type.

    My personal experience is two parents either in conflict with each other or some distant family problem that poured in through the phone. They had many siblings scattered around the globe and tended to take responsibility for everyone's affairs. I think this not only created an unstable, unpredictable, and unhappy environment in the home, but it had so many additional effects. I couldn't bring friends over, for fear that it would be a "bad time for them" (it almost always was) or that they would, embarrassingly, be fighting. It stopped being physical around when I was 5 or 6 and probably would have realized how unhealthy that was. The other carry over effect of this was that there was little love, attention, and laughter in the home. Taken together, I can see how these things would cause someone to start behaving withdrawn / quiet / not trusting others. I turned out that way, my sister, however (4 years younger) is much healthier. I know the dynamics were a little different from her, but I think part of it is her type. She's E/I, and I think NT, but am not sure.

  8. #8
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I do think NF's, and maybe INF's moreso, will be more sensitive to things and will internalize things to a much greater extent than those of other temperaments might. So, yes, a very chaotic and conflict-ridden environment would not be healthy for an NF. That said, that sort of environment isn't good for ANY type. It's just that every type is going to react differently and will have unique defense mechanisms built up to deal with it, which will carry forward through life.

    To provide a little bit of contrast, I had a very safe environment growing up, but it was also very solitary and I believe I was severely lacking in emotional awareness, acceptance, and communication skills as a result. There was no fighting to speak of, but there was no emotional expression of ANY kind, really, aside from bickering and irritability. That was as intense as it got. An element of restraint for all. Everyone kept everything in, there was no depth of conversation, very surfacey and safe, and no one shared anything. So in my case, I didn't learn how to handle conflict at all, because there was none. And, I didn't learn how to express myself, because no one did. So I was withdrawn and insecure just as described in the OP, but for quite different reasons.

    I definitely do the thing though where I automatically look at what I did 'wrong' in any situation, giving it more focus than what the other person may have done, so I do the self-blame thing myself.
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  9. #9
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    David Keirsey said this about Idealist children when they find themselves in conflictual situations:

    "These children, especially if reserved, lack defenses against things the other types take in stride. For example, these children are devastated by conflict, and if reared in a home where the parents quarrel a good deal, they are apt to become withdrawn and insecure."
    -David Keirsey, Please Understand Me II

    I find this to be still true for me, and I will often volunteer for blame or readily believe I am to blame. What are your experiences with this?
    Yep. My parents bickered a lot from the time I was aged 8-10, then it became violent. I was physically ill (stomach) a lot, and almost failed the fifth grade. It was also the time I picked up a bunch of insecurities. I was devastated by my parents divorcing.

    Re the bolded part: I did this a lot and I'm trying to break myself out of it, but a lot of it is/was just being conflict-avoidant. Now I am trying to find a balance, as I'm extremely volatile after accepting blame and then realizing it really was not entirely my fault (though I do have something to do with whatever is going on). Making myself always at fault has allowed others to use me as a scapegoat, and that's a pressure I am not willing to deal with anymore, from myself of anyone else. So I need to find a productive way out of it...work in progress.

  10. #10
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quay View Post

    Re the bolded part: I did this a lot and I'm trying to break myself out of it, but a lot of it is/was just being conflict-avoidant. Now I am trying to find a balance, as I'm extremely volatile after accepting blame and then realizing it really was not entirely my fault (though I do have something to do with whatever is going on). Making myself always at fault has allowed others to use me as a scapegoat, and that's a pressure I am not willing to deal with anymore, from myself of anyone else. So I need to find a productive way out of it...work in progress.
    That's what I was wondering about... You get the scapegoat impression too? Is it real? Is it our interpretation? Keirsey's quote seems to suggest it isn't just an impression, that we do lack defenses and are an easy prey.

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