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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    True.
    But I have sometimes seen them act and speak in ways that showed how only their own feelings applied and they were blind to others' feelings or wishes. I have never seen NFPs doing this. My ENFP friend had noticed the same thing, and she was annoyed about it.

    Here's an example and I've had similar stories happening to me and close relations many times. My family was supposed to go apple-picking with my ISFP niece last fall. She had manifested the wish to come with us when we'd talked about it, and we waited to go on a day she would be free. On the apple-picking day, we waited for her and she never came to join us. So we ended up going without her. She didn't call to explain or anything. Afterwards, we found out she had decided to spend the afternoon with friends. In my opinion, this flakiness is Fi-related. The SFP doesn't feel like going anymore, has changed his mind or has found something more interesting to do at the moment. He goes for it, and doesn't consider how disrespectful this can be for the people who were waiting and had done what they could to accomodate him.

    On another note: my pastor's wife is ESFP and she has often said to me she isn't a compassionate person. She can't stand whiny people. SFPs think it is useless to wallow in sad feelings, and you must move on.
    I see that more true of ESFPs who are very strong in their dominant function. Unfortunately, these same people often do not learn much. They move on, but the failure to reflect on meaning/importance (something the Fi function focuses on) means they repeat many of the same mistakes over & over.

    That said, I don't think Fi is inherently selfish, it simply has no context outside of oneself, as it is an introvett judging function, and the perceiving function must serve to show the Fi-dom as to how to convey their ideals in the external realm. Many Fi-doms have a blind spot as to what is appropriate in some situations because of this, but generally, the basic Fi value system covers a lot if people can forgive minor protocol blunders. The values are formed internally, but what is the basis for them? Are the decided arbitrarily? Entirely by experience? No. Fi is the function most connected to the unconscious mind, and it's something like being very connected to some inborn conscience, the unspoken moral laws that seem to bind across culture & time.

    I really don't know any ISFPs as rude as that, basically. It doesn't take a lot of experience or imagination to know it is inconsiderate towards other people to not call if you can't make it....


    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    That's very interesting. MY ENFP friend also shared with me how she felt that her SJ relatives' Fe was phony and unconsiderate.

    In my case, my whole family uses Fi. My mother is ESTJ, my late father was INFP, my sister is ENFP and my big brother ISTJ. I sometimes felt hurt at how everything was filtered through their own feelings and wishes (this applies to the STJs, the NFPs didn't make me feel that way), and very rare attempts were made at trying to understand me or what I needed or wished. My needs and wishes were different from theirs, but they didn't seem to care. And being INFJ, communicating those needs was difficult, and when I tried and objected, my mother punished me for being rebellious.
    When this happened, I felt so bad because it made me feel selfish for wanting to have my perspective considered as well.
    I didn't necessarily see my SFJ mom & grandma as phony, and of course I did not know what Fe was at the time, but it was the general way people all seemed to feel the same way that struck me as disingenuous. I actually have 2 SFPs in my immediate family, but my ESFP sister just seemed Se to me (and out of touch with her Fi), and my ISFP step-dad is not the most emotionally balanced person. I found my feeling of individuality nurtured more than my potential for diplomacy, basically.

    I think the thing with people who use Fi is they have little need for consensus, and that can throw a Fe person (as it may seem to them there is no interest in their feelings at all). I can see a sense of alienation forming for a Fe or Fi user if not provided good "role models".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #22
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Can you tell us more about this?
    And what would make the impulses irresistible? Se?
    I think anyone's susceptible there. There's all kinds of areas where I need to pull away. I may have some talent for music, for example.. but to me, it's just kind of therapy or something. My own little thing. I don't want to entertain anyone or spread a message with it. So in a way, I'm being selfish with this. I don't care either. I shouldn't be obligated to think of it as anything else. I'm not an entertainer and that's all there is to it. Secondly, lets say someone may need help with a big project.. like moving into a new home. I can't do this all day (or two days in a row) with them. At a certain point, I feel like.. well, I got some of the big stuff out of the way for them. I think others can take it from here. I'm not here to completely live for others. Everyone's got their own life - and I don't mean that in a selfish/cynical way. I just mean in a day-to-day, practical way. If someone was constantly thinking about others, IRONICALLY, I would think about them! That's not healthy either. I'd try to help them relax a second and enjoy themselves.

  3. #23
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Many Fi-doms have a blind spot as to what is appropriate in some situations because of this, but generally, the basic Fi value system covers a lot if people can forgive minor protocol blunders.
    I need to learn to forgive those.
    And mostly to see that selfishness or bad intentions don't necessarily motivate the actions.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I've often wanted to ask SPs: "What does sacrifice mean to you?"

    I suppose that NFs' view of empathy isn't only about feeling what the other is feeling. What are you doing about it? But the dictionary's definition is limited to the feeling itself.
    Admittedly, I did have trouble with making sacrifices and paying attention to the full effect my actions had on others while I was younger. My Ni and Fe have evolved a lot since then. I've gotten more used to doing things that I don't want to do if/when they are really important to others, especially others that I really care about. Sacrifice to me today means thinking ahead, exchanging instant gratification for long-term stability and interpersonal harmony. I see that as a stage many (not all, not most, but many) kids have to go through.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Can you tell us more about this?
    And what would make the impulses irresistible? Se?
    Se doesn't have as much free reign as it did in my younger years -- not by a longshot. In fact, these days I tend to be bypassing it for Ni and Te.

    When there is no one but myself facing the consequences of my actions, I tend to go ahead and do my own thing; it's what comes naturally. (Bear with me when I say no one but myself, please? I know that it's an unusually rare occurrence for no one else to be affected by one's actions, but for the sake of this example...). I love it when I'm responsible for no one but myself, to be honest. I get so anxious and self-conscious when I know that I am sort of holding the fate of another in my hands and decisions; immobilized, really.

    In situations where I have complete freedom and know so, my impulses become a lot more irresistible. Not to the extent that I would ruin my life in a week, but away from the extent that I can't act without feeling guilty and amoral.

    What I mean by not going out of my way is actively seeking out people to help and sympathize with, as many of the primary Fe users I know seem to do. Out of a room full of people, they see someone really down or needing help and easily approach said person with the greatest warmth and concern ever. I admire that, but I can't do it in that way as easily as they can. In my mind, I'm worried that the person could be thinking something like, "It's none of your business". There's always this concern I have about invading someone's personal space or possibly offending them by putting my nose somewhere they may think it doesn't belong. I'm much less likely to help someone unless they come to me and personally ask for it.

  5. #25
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Sometimes I don't know how to express sympathy either. I was at a little party not too long ago, for example.. and I met this guy there who turned out to be the brother of someone I knew long ago. It turned out that his brother died.. I felt bad, but I just let him talk about it. I didn't know what to say.. that's hard. Besides, I think if I just said something out of "obligation" to express nurturing, that'd just be inappropriate imho. It's not about what I can do for him...except listen. I might silently affirm and nod to some things he's saying, but stuff like that is almost at the point of being rendered speechless. If someone says I don't care though, then.. well.. I'm writing about it months later. It's on my mind, so it's not like I don't truly care.

  6. #26
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Sometimes I don't know how to express sympathy either. I was at a little party not too long ago, for example.. and I met this guy there who turned out to be the brother of someone I knew long ago. It turned out that his brother died.. I felt bad, but I just let him talk about it. I didn't know what to say.. that's hard. Besides, I think if I just said something out of "obligation" to express nurturing, that'd just be inappropriate imho. It's not about what I can do for him...except listen. I might silently affirm and nod to some things he's saying, but stuff like that is almost at the point of being rendered speechless. If someone says I don't care though, then.. well.. I'm writing about it months later. It's on my mind, so it's not like I don't truly care.
    I think in a situation like that, Fe makes me feel I MUST say something. It's not always going to be the right thing, but I think generally I'm not too too far off. If a person just kind of mentions a tragedy in passing, I would usually say "I'm so sorry" or "what a terrible experience for you." If they tell you about something at length, I sometimes find myself saying "I don't know what to say", which I know sounds trite but mostly people don't seem to mind. At least it expresses that if you could say something that would really help, you would.

    Some people will be comforted by such comments, most won't be offended at least. That's how I look at it.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    What is this...Fe?

  8. #28
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    I treat others the way I want to be treated in return. As for diplomatic... God, I can't stand hearing two people bicker.. exchanging blame-- all I hear is yap-yap-yap. It's typical between retards who haven't spent a single breath of their life self-reflecting / looking at alternatives.

  9. #29
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
    What is this...Fe?
    Is this sarcastic... ?
    If not, it is Extraverted Feeling (Fe), one of Jung's psychological functions.
    It is ENFJs' main function and INFJs' secondary function.
    NFPs use Fi (Introverted Feeling).

    Here's a definition:
    "Fe seeks social connections and creates harmonious interactions through polite, considerate, and appropriate behavior. Fe responds to the explicit (and implicit) wants of others, and may even create an internal conflict between the subject’s own needs and the desire to meet the needs of others."

  10. #30
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think the thing with people who use Fi is they have little need for consensus
    It's hard for NFJs not to see this as disrespect or mere individualism, especially if they are personally involved and are not informed at all. If it's a personal decision that has no impact on other people, that's none of my business.
    I've had Fi users (the ones I have in mind were ESFP, an ENTJ and ESTJ) taking decisions about my life or things I was very involved with, and making things happen without talking to me at all, not even seeing the relevance of asking what I thought about it.
    The ENTJ even scolded me for half an hour when I asked why I hadn't been informed about one situation. (He came with a flower bouquet a few days later and apologized to me, though).

    I've never had NFPs hurting me in that way, though.

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