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Thread: Ask an ENFP

  1. #301
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Understood.

    The weird thing is, she would say the same thing.

    And it was real. Like, she wasn't normally a bullying kinda person, and would genuinely despise that kind of behavior.

    But then she would pull shit like that (where, presumably, she thought she was picking on someone who deserved it, or something).
    Well, I guess it will just remain a big mystery whether or not I'm intellectually capable of accurately assessing my own behavior over the years and then in addition to that capable of telling the truth about it.

  2. #302
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^I don't relate to this...at all really...and I'm curious now as to how many of the ENFP e7s do or would.

    I very much relate to what @uumlau was saying with regards to ENFPs and control but not the above. I mean, the above sorta defies my understanding of the ENFP which is due to either an e7 bias...or I'm completely misunderstanding what you are saying...

    It basically seems to me that you're saying..."I struggle with these kinds of everyday tasks/functions...and so because you're a.) good at dealing with these kinds of things and b.) I've completely screened the psychological shit out of you and subsequently allowed you the highest level of clearance... you can take care of me...and in exchange you can have your way with my body."

    ^^maybe I got that wrong but if I'm even somewhere in the ballpark I can tell you that isn't the ENFP e7 way at all. Like just the word "protects" from that last sentence I quoted causes me to cringe a tiny bit. I want a man that has my back... but he's not going to step-in and fight my battles for me. I've never had that desire for protection and while I've known a good many ENFP e7s in my lifetime...they've all been the same as me in this regard. A guy steps in to protect me or clean-up one of my messes? Gross. I've always been for the dude that has just as much completely unreasonable faith in my abilities as I do haha.

    I've often said though that ENFP 7s can out-resist-control e8s of any MBTI...any day of the week. 8s generally want to hit you with the absolute worst they've got and once they know you are strong enough to handle it...will become sweet, loving 2s. 7s can be frustrating for so many people because they want complete equality even in instances where it might not be warranted. "Can I remember to pay my bills on time? Nope. But you can't call attention to that because I'm remaining very optimistic about this. Someday, because of the magic of the universe, I just might."

    Even if you think you are controlling a 7 you really aren't. The two types of responses I've seen over and over again are what is referred to as *flashes of anger* ...or just as likely the 7 that appears completely unaware of attempts to control them but are totally aware and have become waves that you can't pin down to the beach.


    I don't relate to the lyrics of this song at all...but there's something in this 'can't be pinned down' quality (no ownership) that I hear in this song that makes me think of what it would be like to be in a relationship with an unhealthy male or female 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    yep yep all of this...altho i'm quite sure amar has the very romantic idea of partners taking "care" of each other...which i get in a sort of far off dreamy way...like mergy sxness way of completely having each others back and will turn into fierce lioness to protect..sort of idea...out there...or deep in there somewhere but reality...like for real for real...someone "protecting me" sounds completely patronizing.

    must be a type 7 thing..do not dare see me as weak or in any way someone that needs to be managed.
    Then I guess I didn't really make it clear how it works for me. It's always been a touchy subject on these boards though so I've kind of stopped trying to explain this, but I'll see if I can have another go at it.


    It's not that I want him to take care of me. It's not that I expect it. It's not that I go 'you may take care of me now'. I'm perfectly capable and adequate to take care of myself, though I'll admit - it's harder for me. It's that IF he wants to do that stuff, I let him. Coz I trust him - and cos it provides me with a golden opportunity to use the breathing space as a learning moment and be inspired by how he handles things, to take notes and actually get better at it myself instead of feeling overloaded and stressed non-stop. Other people don't get that clearance coz they'd get access to all the frailty, vulnerability and secrets that go with that clearance. If I actually denied him that shit while expecting him to take care of me as well, yeah, then it becomes what you described. However, not vetting someone who you trust with those things is kind of naive, ime.

    I don't trade my body. All I said was that I need a pretty high level of trust to put it in someone else's hands. What I do try to create is a mental space where we can both be ourselves without the social mask. As much as I understand the need to be on our best behaviour in large groups to keep things manageable and respectful to everyone there, it also means you're reigned in. Compare it to riding your horse and making it work versus letting them go nuts in a meadow and be free. I personally prefer seeing that stallion rear up and buck about in a meadow over riding it. I like to see it free to stretch, get rid of all that pent up tension - they're gorgeous when they truly let go like that, without anyone being at risk of harm. Yet bucking and rearing is dangerous and undesirable in the arena and can interfere with the work you want to accomplish during riding.

    My point is - if I know what he is capable of and what kind of man he is, I can calculate the risks, and buffer the rough edges so he can be himself - and see what he can take from me, vice versa. That goes far beyond just sexually - I just kept it in that realm coz that was the question asked. But honestly, it's not about the body - it's about the emotional sync up for me. The body is just one of the many tools of expression in that regard.


    Is it fantasy? Not really, I'm living it. But I also put in a shit ton of work to make that fantasy a reality

    As for wanting an excuse to behave badly - I like raw emotional honesty, as long as it is safe for everyone involved. And I don't mind being the one to orchestrate the entire thing and monitor the potential hazards involved so everyone can for once just relax and be flawed, be relaxed and just...not worry about how they'll impact the other person or behaving. It's not about deliberately having your cake and eating it. It's just about not having to be 'ON' for one moment and take off that gorram corset. I don't see the big deal - it's not like we don't all have undesirable behaviour, wants and unreasonable moments. And often giving them a place to be takes the edge off and makes that mask so much easier to tolerate. Put a stallion in a meadow and he'll go nuts for 10 minutes, but after that he's happily grazing. It's no different here.

    Are there people would turn this into a form of entitlement for bad behaviour, wanting to normalise it and have their cake and eat it? Absolutely - but then those people aren't blowing off steam, they're just taking a shortcut through life. And that's the first thing I vet for and boot out - one of my main reasons actually. A safe haven is just that - safe and a haven. It's a way to get a breather from the world - not a place to hide out and act like the rules don't apply to you *ever*.

    Is that a 4 sx thing? I dunno, it sure sounds like it. It's a way to allow myself to be broken without feeling guilty about it and to give someone else a much deserved equal break. A way to explore the dark abyss we all have inside with negative emotions - and to observe such behaviour in others, as well as learning how to deal with all the bullshit we so desperately keep under wraps all the time. To me, it'x preposterous to turn a blind eye to that stuff - I rather have it out where I can see it, learn from it, gain a greater understanding of the other and be understood. Emotions are emotions - the dark ones are equally beautiful, and even more in need of understanding than the ones we so prefer to focus on. And I personally find that exploring that dark abyss in a safe and respectful manner can help a person resolve some of the knee-jerk unwanted behaviour they cannot seem to rid themselves of - because it gets a place to be, it doesn't get vilified and it's done with curiosity and in search of understanding. It often allows them to untangle that knot in their head by getting the information and experiencing the stuff they were denied before which triggered the behaviour in the first place.

    Iow, it allows you to unmask your demons and realise they're just a nightmare with nothing to worry about. And that to me is pure gold.

    So yes. I'll gladly bend and flex for someone with control issues - provided they're aware, cautious and use the safe space for what it was meant for - to discover themselves and the taboos society puts on them, keeping their own truth from themselves. And vice versa, they'll occasionally provide me with the opportunity to explore my avoidance behaviour and fear of the world so I can face it. Fear is debilitating after all - it stops us from learning and triggers fight or flight. Guilt does the same for me (not for everyone, Ive noticed), so being in a space where I'm allowed to explore those taboos is immensely rewarding as it gives me a chance to approach the issue at my own pace, and circle around it to gain a full understanding instead of being triggered to run scared from it without ever really getting a good look at what it is I'm running from.

    And I'll try and point out - for both me and them - when I notice the behaviours we're prone to increasing, nearing the point of being undesirable in consequences. I'll just point it out, observing it, without judgement and see what they think we should do - explore and see if those consequences are that bad, or readjust if preferred. The point is that it is *our* decision without being pressured to acquiesce to anyone. This allows us to figure out our triggers, sensitivities and how to navigate each other without having to avoid, ignore, endure or dismiss parts of one another and grow together - at least, that is the hope. If I'm triggered by something he cannot help doing (or vice versa), we'll together figure out a way to circumvent those moments to keep things from derailing due to those shared sensitivities. We might even have a spat, and repeat it several times, letting it play out completely, no matter how unreasonable we 're both being in order to figure out where the other one is coming from, their drives, needs and motivations so we can actually take the situation apart and recalibrate the responses that way. The spat becomes like a test ground and isn't about the content - it's about the pattern, the triggers, the communication and the understanding gained to together find a way to make it work for both of us, without anyone having to actually curb their meadow time - which means it gets experienced in a non-hurtful way however heated it gets as ultimately, you're in this together and there is no doubt that the other person is in fact on your side and vice versa.


    Do I understand that this concept frightens and concerns people who rather not go near things like this deeply? Why yes as it is something that can be abused really easily if not properly executed with the right mindset from either party. So it is totally understandable that you'd never want to put yourself in that situation.

    I on the other hand, find it worth the risk - and feel pretty confident in my abilities to protect all parties involved

    / feeble last attempt at this can of worms.
    Last edited by Amargith; 04-26-2014 at 04:52 AM.
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  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Well, I guess it will just remain a big mystery whether or not I'm intellectually capable of accurately assessing my own behavior over the years and then in addition to that capable of telling the truth about it.
    Not something I was trying to imply.

    Seriously.

    Just noting that it was the case with her.

    She was full of contradictions.

    And admittedly so.

  4. #304
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    @Zarathustra:

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I would never make fun of another person omfg. Do you know how many fuckin bullies I have stood up to in my life on the behalf of others? Like the thought of anyone equating me with that behavior pisses me off.

    Yes, I relate to that blind spot. I get excited about ideas and in the process of sharing them forget to say please and thank you sometimes. Shoot me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Just like to point out I'm 748...and seriously do not relate to any of this bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Well, I guess it will just remain a big mystery whether or not I'm intellectually capable of accurately assessing my own behavior over the years and then in addition to that capable of telling the truth about it.
    ^ I am sort of in this camp.

    I will write something longer soon, but one thing stood out to me. You compared my father to hers, because they are both geniuses and doctors, though mine was a rockstar too ;D

    It definitely made an impact on me. I will admit that I have some "daddy issues" etc. I will explain this in more detail soon. But for the most part, my father and I get along great, and I seem to have a much more stable, loving, accepting upbringing than your ex. This probably plays a larger part in her behavior than enneagram at least compared to mine.

    I've never had any problem with parents liking me. In fact, all of my exes or male friends' parents were hoping they would marry me. At one wedding (the same guy who I slapped LOL) he was marrying his wife and his father came to me , crying, and said "I always wished he would marry you." This wedding happened recently, in our 30s. He and I dated for three months in highschool. We were friends for a long time after that, occasionally lovers (though his parents probably didnt know that part), but all that time, his parents held out hope he would marry me.

    His parents are very upright, uptight, kind of SJ-ish type of people.

    I am respectful. It's very important to me to be respectful. I don't consider it "fake." If I need to express my rage etc, I'll do it out in the world, or on my own property with people I trust. I don't consider politeness "fake" because I actually BELIEVE that it's right to be respectful on someone else's property, or to respect my boyfriend by being nice to his parents. This is part of what I am, who I am, how I feel.

    When I was a bit closer with an ex's family , the one I dated two years.. they came to my shows and I stayed at their house sometimes for days because they lived far away. They were more laid back etc. Of course I was not "polite" the whole time, but I wasn't "rude" either. Being a rude-ass isn't in the cards for me. Standing up for myself is in the cards but not being a bully, rude-ass jerk. It's just not the way I am made. So they saw more of me, but they didn't see anything evil or disrespectful. At worst they saw me being quiet, withdrawn, or looking a little sad. I told them "I'm tired' and told my boyfriend alone, what was really on my mind, if anything. But I have no ego tied up in being "real" if it means being mean/ rude/ disrespectful.

    The reason parents like me is that I am very genuine. I do express myself. It's not like I hide who I am or pretend to be someone else. It's just that part of who I am is respecting that people worked to buy their property, that people should be in charge if it's their place, etc. I expect this kind of respect when it's my place. I treat others how I want to be treated. It's not even about super-ego.. it's not about right and wrong.. it's just what feels good to me. It feels honest. If I am honest, the truth is that I'm a compassionate person. So the more honest I am, the nicer I would be, aside from situations in which I am hurt, threatened or someone is being mean to me, in which case, all bets are off, and I am quick to get the power back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    @Zarathustra:

    ^ I am sort of in this camp.

    I will write something longer soon, but one thing stood out to me. You compared my father to hers, because they are both geniuses and doctors, though mine was a rockstar too ;D

    It definitely made an impact on me. I will admit that I have some "daddy issues" etc. I will explain this in more detail soon. But for the most part, my father and I get along great, and I seem to have a much more stable, loving, accepting upbringing than your ex. This probably plays a larger part in her behavior than enneagram at least compared to mine.

    I've never had any problem with parents liking me. In fact, all of my exes or male friends' parents were hoping they would marry me. At one wedding (the same guy who I slapped LOL) he was marrying his wife and his father came to me , crying, and said "I always wished he would marry you." This wedding happened when we were both in our 30s. He and I dated for three months in highschool. We were friends for a long time after that, occasionally lovers (though his parents probably didnt know that part), but all that time, his parents held out hope he would marry me.

    His parents are very upright, uptight, kind of SJ-ish type of people.

    I am respectful. It's very important to me to be respectful. I don't consider it "fake." If I need to be myself, I'll do it out in the world, or on my own property with people I trust. I don't consider politeness "fake" because I actually BELIEVE that it's right to be respectful on someone else's property, or to respect my boyfriend by being nice to his parents. This is part of what I am, who I am, how I feel.

    When I was a bit closer with an ex's family , the one I dated two years.. they came to my shows and I stayed at their house sometimes for days because they lived far away. They were more laid back etc. Of course I was not "polite" the whole time, but I wasn't "rude" either. Being a rude-ass isn't in the cards for me. Standing up for myself is in the cards but not being a bully, rude-ass jerk. It's just not the way I am made. So they saw more of me, but they didn't see anything evil or disrespectful. At worst they saw me being quiet, withdrawn, or looking a little sad. I told them "I'm tired' and told my boyfriend alone, what was really on my mind, if anything. But I have no ego tied up in being "real" if it means being mean/ rude/ disrespectful.

    The reason parents like me is that I am very genuine. I do express myself. It's not like I hide who I am or pretend to be someone else. It's just that part of who I am is respecting that people worked to buy their property, that people should be in charge if it's their place, etc. I expect this kind of respect when it's my place. I treat others how I want to be treated. It's not even about super-ego.. it's not about right and wrong.. it's just what feels good to me. It feels honest. If I am honest, the truth is that I'm a compassionate person. So the more honest I am, the nicer I would be, aside from situations in which I am hurt, threatened or someone is being mean to me, in which case, all bets are off, and I am quick to get the power back.
    Hmmm.

    Cool.

    Thank you for the message.

  6. #306
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Hmmm.

    Cool.

    Thank you for the message.
    Sure. I'll address more points (yours and others ) soon

    Also I want to add, I would never hiss at someone's parents, or really anyone that I don't know well, unless I knew they were cool with that "side" of me. My ex's parents knew me well enough that they thought it was cute. Also the mom was a vet and animal lover. But I'm not out to make my boyfriend's life miserable..etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Sure. I'll address more points (yours and others ) soon
    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Also I want to add, I would never hiss at someone's parents, or really anyone that I don't know well, unless I knew they were cool with that "side" of me.
    This might be the most endearing sentence I've ever read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    But I'm not out to make my boyfriend's life miserable..etc.
    Well, honestly, you sound a lot more reasonable than my ex.

    I'm probably going to get shot for this, but (amongst many other things!!!) I wonder how much this has to do with your 9 wing

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    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    This is our Hotline. Call in. We'll give you answers.
    Backstory: I had a coworker who I initially thought was ENFP. After about a year I changed my mind and firmly thought he was an ESFP.

    The question: What are some factors that you'd consider when comparing ENFP vs. ESFP and how might these manifest to those of us on the fence, as it were, in deciding between the two.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    I'm probably going to get shot for this, but (amongst many other things!!!) I wonder how much this has to do with your 9 wing
    No actually, I think that is a good point. I only realized yesterday that I had the 9 wing. I mean- I'd considered 1w9 in the past but only briefly. 8 really makes more sense for me. But just last night it clicked why it HAS to be 8w9. 9 as a fix doesn't make sense for me but I actually do think that 9 wing makes some difference.

    Also is she a 4w5 or 4w3?
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  10. #310
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The thing is that an ENFP will need time to develop Fi to actually figure out *what* and in *what way* they need something to work for them in order to actually get shit done (Te). And the world generally has very little patience with that, causing quite a few rebellious episodes in an otherwise so rational looking enfp. So if you've got someone who is being triggered but doesn't realise it, and doing the push and pull thing, chances are that they haven't figured out yet what it is they're supposed to want and in what way to make it work for them.

    Additionally -coming back to that irrationality you were referring to earlier wrt to the dichotomy of wanting someone to take over yet not - , I think this happens when an ENFP has been a) taught the value of self reliance and therefore feels really self-conscious about 'failing' in that respect ( I know I had to swallow a great deal of pride to realise that what I'm good at is basically asking others to do it for me ). Many however do improve seriously in this respect due to being told that this is important (and it is.), but its not without its cost and effort.

    And b) when the ENFP is still training their Fi wrt to who to trust with what. One of the things I feel we rule at is figuring out who we can entrust with what - be it a task, a secret or our heart. However, it does take a considerable amount of NeSi before Fi is properly...shall we say 'calibrated'? And at that point, it becomes like 'insufficient data on this person' - control not recommended. At the same time we're struggling with a) and shit hits the fan. As...inefficient as it may seem, that is the process we need to go through in order to come into our own, I feel.

    Once you know the areas you want to improve on yourself, yet also know which people to go to for other stuff (or even this stuff temporarily as you figure it out), and rock the skill of motivating them (and making sure they get their cut of the goodies), you hit the ground running in actually getting shit done on *YOUR* terms.

    / rambling.
    @Amargith --

    Just. D@mn. *THIS* explains your having written and translated the "Handy Field Guide to the XXXX In The Wild" for a number of MBTI types, into several languages.
    You must have that INTJ fellow of yours wrapped around your finger good and hard.
    And he probably loves it.

    Wary respect. (Backs away slowly, internalized threat sensor scanning anxiously for incoming stealth missiles.)
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