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  1. #31
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Bah, stupid need for sleep and a job. I'll have to finish my reply tomorrow.
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    I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

    Never take life to seriously.. No one gets out alive in the end anyway.

  2. #32
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    If it was as simple as just being an issue with today's currently accepted truths, then I don't think I'd really have any frustrations.

    I think it's more human nature and what it does with those truths more then anything. Specifically statistics and probability. Society as a whole is more or less my issue, in that the actions of few usually determine how the many are treated.

    They look too much at would could happen, and only tend to quote statistics when it suits them.

    Even outside of statistics the media in general for example has a very high fear mongering attitude about it as far as I'm concern. They'll take a story and run with it often leaving out facts that would otherwise make it seem like less of a big deal, or would change their audiences perspective away from how the journalist who wrote the story feels they should be worried about it.

    The general populace sheep who need to be told how to feel or what to do get all up in arms because they can't be bothered to look into it themselves.

    The politicians wishing to get as many votes as possible play off this and make heavy handed changes that are designed to protect ourselves from our evil ways.

    Then theres the NIMBY's of the world. (Not In My BackYard).
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    I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

    Never take life to seriously.. No one gets out alive in the end anyway.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Vortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Vortex, I believe this is your cue. (I'm not sure about the atheism part.)
    Now I'm going to totally interrupt this interesting thread development (which I hope will resume shortly after this brief reply to both the OP and Eco).

    I lean mostly towards atheism, with the failsafe that anything is possible, but not necessarily probable as CaptainChick pointed out in post #22. You know, I'll be so pissed off if I some day find myself in an afterlife where everything I don't believe in turns out to be true. I certainly don't believe that my actions have consequences anywhere but in this life and I do believe that the penalties for transgressions aren't evenly distributed.

    On the misanthropy note; I like very few people and put very little stock in humanity in general. I don't necessarily harbour hatred for mankind, but I do distrust almost all specimens of same deeply.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I am new to this forum, and am curious if there are any other ENFPs, or NFs who also happen to be atheists and slightly misanthropic.

    Growing up, I recall never really believing in "God", and by age 11, or 12, I became evermore certain that the existence of a "higher power" was highly improbable, to the point of bordering the impossible, (hence me feeling comfortable classifying myself as an atheist and not an agnostic). Interestingly enough, my lack of belief in a higher power has had no affect on what has always been my strong sense of right and wrong. I suppose that throughout life, my somewhat strong feelings of both empathy and compassion have acted as my guiding lights in influencing my moral beliefs, and steering my ethical actions.

    I believe that the nature of nature itself is inherently neutral, where things just exist, period. However, I believe that from a human perspective, the realities of life set in this natural, neutral world, depending on mood and circumstance, can at times be perceived as being an awe-inspiring and beautiful thing, and at other times be perceived as being downright perverse in its unjust, absolutely horrific ugliness.

    I'm starting to believe that it is human nature to be selfish and competitive, after all, we are animals, and at the most basic level, are genetically driven to strive for not only our survival, but if, and when the opportunity arises, to capitalize on available resources, while competing for limited ones in order to flourish and successfully procreate.

    I know that there are "good" people out there, and by good I mean those people that sincerely care about other people other than themselves, but I'll tell ya, as I get older, I find that those people become fewer and farther between, dispersed amongst the masses.

    Sorry, this is somewhat of a rant....

    Anyhow, I would love to hear any thoughts you guys might have on this topic
    I consider myself as an active nihilist, advocate of nature, Whitmanist and a misanthrope*. I feel that context is always in a perpetual state of change and most things are not linear. The irony that makes me chuckle every time about misanthropic folk is their gravitation towards other misanthropes. Nearly all my friends exhibit feelings of misanthropy and I'm very fortunate to have them as good friends. *I'm philanthropic to my friends but view humanity as rather misanthropically; judge everyone as neutral.

    I think it's a load of crap to think that human nature is inherently selfish/competitive. Anthropology has helped prove empathy as a genetic trait. E.g. Tribal communities in the Amazon.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Ender,

    I think I might understand your frustrations with today's currently accepted truths, for as history has constantly shown, time, and time again, what is true today, is often proven false tomorrow.
    I share this frustration because I see it on both sides, from theists and atheists. However, I've learned to accept that fact that most people don't like the important questions to be unanswered.

    However, all we can do with our limited knowledge is hypothesize and conjecture, this is why the concepts of statistics and probability act as incredibly important tools. But just because a certain outcome may be more likely than another, doesn't mean that the former is absolutely going to happen.
    I agree to a point. I've noticed that many hardcore atheists (those who denounce agnosticism) often fall back on Occum's Razor as though it were some sort of universal truth. I find this to be frustrating because what is reasonable is entirely governed by perception. I see it as a cop out.

    I believe that every person has the right to believe, and do whatever they please, as long as it does not infringe on another person's rights. In short, I'm a firm believer in the adage, "To each his own".

    If you want to kill yourself, then that's your right. If you want to use drugs, then that's your right. If you want to stay at home and masturbate to clown porn, then that's your right.

    Ah, I forgot where I was going with this...
    A libertarian?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Welcome CaptainChick!

    First off, I haven't been following the developments of this thread because to be completely honest these sorts of discussions tend to wear me out and I don't often have the urge to enter them or discuss any of it. Like you, I've thought a lot about a lot of the stuff you mentioned. I don't really know what I am. Probably something on the agnostic side of atheism, but I'm definitely not an atheist. I think ultimately a lot of differences in any large topics can boil down to semantics - that two people might have the exact same conception of something and use different words; thus, it's seen as two totally different things. Or the other way - two people using the same word could have completely different conceptions of the idea the word conveys.

    I don't think that I'm a misanthrope, but that said, I think I have the *tendency* for my thoughts to move in that direction. But when it's all said and done I don't think I am one. I want to believe in people. :-)

    Oh. Nature is what I most value. It probably IS my spirituality.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #37
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    If it was as simple as just being an issue with today's currently accepted truths, then I don't think I'd really have any frustrations.

    I think it's more human nature and what it does with those truths more then anything. Specifically statistics and probability. Society as a whole is more or less my issue, in that the actions of few usually determine how the many are treated.

    They look too much at would could happen, and only tend to quote statistics when it suits them.

    Even outside of statistics the media in general for example has a very high fear mongering attitude about it as far as I'm concern. They'll take a story and run with it often leaving out facts that would otherwise make it seem like less of a big deal, or would change their audiences perspective away from how the journalist who wrote the story feels they should be worried about it.

    The general populace sheep who need to be told how to feel or what to do get all up in arms because they can't be bothered to look into it themselves.

    The politicians wishing to get as many votes as possible play off this and make heavy handed changes that are designed to protect ourselves from our evil ways.

    Then theres the NIMBY's of the world. (Not In My BackYard).
    So, it bothers you when those in power take advantage of the general populace, i.e. population mind control via propaganda and paternalistic policy?

    Society functions as a well-oiled and highly specialized intricate machine. Society crumbles when its individual constituents dissent. There is power in numbers, and there can only be one queen in an ant colony.

    You can try to change society for the better, but most fail. The majority will forever exist, and will perpetually lag behind.

    To quote Hitler, "What good fortune for those in power that people do not think".

    Makes me want to hang myself, actually...

  8. #38
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
    I certainly don't believe that my actions have consequences anywhere but in this life and I do believe that the penalties for transgressions aren't evenly distributed.
    I couldn't agree more, and am quite sad, and baffled by the fact that an incredibly minuscule select few would actually agree with this. Ho-hum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
    On the misanthropy note; I like very few people and put very little stock in humanity in general.
    Yup, the older I get the fewer people I find myself genuinely liking, and the less stock I find myself putting in humanity at large.

    And to think, I used to once be an idealist, laughable man.

  9. #39
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    However, I've learned to accept that fact that most people don't like the important questions to be unanswered.
    So true!!! Most people find it difficult to accept that there just so happens to be no definitive answers to life's most important questions. Sadly, these same people would prefer any answer at all, no matter how far-fetched and dangerously ignorant and limiting, to label as their comfortingly sedating truths, than to leave their minds open to the wonder of not knowing... God forbid!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I agree to a point. I've noticed that many hardcore atheists (those who denounce agnosticism) often fall back on Occum's Razor as though it were some sort of universal truth. I find this to be frustrating because what is reasonable is entirely governed by perception. I see it as a cop out.
    Now you have me thinking about the difference between what it means to be logical, and what it means to be reasonable. Where the rules that dictate reason, and thus what's to be considered reasonable, are far more circumstantially based and subjectively driven, than the more universally applied objective rules of logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    A libertarian?
    Whole heartedly!!

  10. #40
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    So, it bothers you when those in power take advantage of the general populace, i.e. population mind control via propaganda and paternalistic policy?

    Society functions as a well-oiled and highly specialized intricate machine. Society crumbles when its individual constituents dissent. There is power in numbers, and there can only be one queen in an ant colony.

    You can try to change society for the better, but most fail. The majority will forever exist, and will perpetually lag behind.

    To quote Hitler, "What good fortune for those in power that people do not think".

    Makes me want to hang myself, actually...
    It does bother me, but for some odd reason, I don't really fault those in power for it. I have more contempt for those who allow themselves to be lead then I do for those who lead. Because without them those who would lead wouldn't be able to effect how I feel I should be able to live my life.

    I wouldn't have to worry that engaging in a hobby I've enjoyed for years will suddenly change the how the general populace perceives me, and I wouldn't have to worry that if by deciding to ignore that feeling I would then become a target for those who would play off those perceptions to further increase their level of power.

    To hell with the ant colony, I'd rather be a lone wolf, then another automaton with no real purpose other then to feed those at the top.

    Sadly being human the need for companionship is too strong of a desire.
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    I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

    Never take life to seriously.. No one gets out alive in the end anyway.

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