[MBTI General] People who unload on you and don't understand...

[mochajava]

The simpliest answers are sometimes the best. Here's my take.

- Most people really, really want to be understood.
- People who are willing to understand you are rare.
- People cling to those who understand them, because of this.

Lots of these people don't seem to understand that this process comes to us like breathing comes to others. To them its something rare and magical. To an INFJ its just how people are.

We're the ones baffled when others don't "get" it.

WHOA. Sheer brilliance. You're incredibly right. I was trying to describe what this meant to my INTJ, and I kept stumbling onto "this is like breathing to me... how is it so hard for you to understand?"

That being said, if you can't be understood, the next bests are being listened to and accepted completely.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Just being busy and not answering the phone when you don't have it in you to hear problems is a start.

Unbalanced relationships are typically a problem. It is especially a problem if the unloader is dismissive when you have a problem. It is also confusing when someone encourages you to open up, but they never share anything about their own life. I think that is also unbalanced. For me it comes down to taking people for whatever they offer within the context of what I have the energy to give. There isn't an ideal dynamic that is going to happen often, so you just do what you can and minimize expectations for how anything is "supposed" to turn out.

 

[duck!]

I've had this problem, too.
Oddly enough, I had it with an INFJ.

Recently, I had to put the breaks a friendship I had with an INFJ in crisis. Because I'm (outwardly) flighty and positive and cheerful, I think she thought I had nothing to say to her about myself. The conversation became solely about her. Normally she is pretty attuned to herself and tends to keep the conversation that way. That's fine. I'm used to a 70 (her) - 30 (me) balance, and it's what I signed up for when I became her good friend. No resentment there.

Over the past year, however, we've descended into some very depressing territory. I found myself taking on her feelings. We had four-hour long phone conversations five (or even more) times a week. I would wake up the next morning feeling like there was a lead weight on my chest. I couldn't do it anymore after two concentrated years of this.

I know that I should've told her about it earlier, but I never did. I never did because I thought she would stop being friends with me if I didn't listen. I don't mean she would've cut me off, but she would have withdrawn and told no one her feelings. The problem also got worse in very tiny gradations, which meant that what I had formerly found acceptable had quickly turned into something much worse without my having realized its progression.

When I was listening to her, I do believe I was helping. But after a while, I also felt that I was enabling the existence of a giant echo chamber in which her distress was constantly analyzed and re-analyzed.

Like I said, this was the status quo for two years.

My trigger moment came when I had something catastrophic happen in my life (the death of a very valued friend). Five minutes after I found out the devastating news, my INFJ called me about a boot on her car and some job related problems. I remember the numbness I felt listening to her talk and realizing that she was unaware of anything in my life up to this horrific moment I'd just experienced. And there was no way I could talk to her about those intensely personal things. I was also aware that in the vast vacuum that was our friendship, there existed no happiness. Or a break, at least, from crushing and overwhelming grief.

I wrote her a long email telling her what I thought. (I omitted any mention of the 'trigger' moment.) I made it as nice as I could, but I told her that I'd had enough of the current trajectory of our friendship. I told her that the few times I'd made a weak attempt to tell her how I was feeling, she was immediately dismissive. I needed to say my piece in an email because I'm someone who can be easily shut down in person. I know I wrote it at an awful time for her professionally and emotionally, but I didn't see the situation stopping anytime soon. And, of course, I was still deeply distressed about my poor friend and disconnected from my life around me. I needed, in short, a friend who would listen.

She responded a couple of days later with an apology, but asked me to acknowledge that by being passive-aggressive I, too, harmed the friendship.

I agree that that was the case. But I also feel like this was because I had this overwhelming need to be there for her, and that after awhile my emotions became too tied to hers. I was emotionally invested in an outcome that was never going to happen. It wasn't something I could help with or deal with, and it was having actual physical effects on me. (Sleeplessness, depression, lack of appetite, etc) She said she needed a break to think on what I had to say. The conversation we had got progressively angrier, I think, but I know that there is no way she can run away from what I said.

I'm pretty sure I'm on the other end of what they call the INFJ doorslam right now. But I have no real desire to break that doorslam. It is what it is, and I can be satisfied that the feeling between us is mutual.

I wrote this long comment in response to the statements made by Words of Ivory.

It's simply not true that other types are incapable of empathizing or of listening to others. And it's not true that the INFJ has to be necessarily more sympathetic or less self-absorbed. As someone who has been there I know that that's the case. Everyone is capable of behaving this way ... and such behavior has immense consequences.

 

[Words of Ivory]

If she was entirely dismissive of your feelings and not even able to pick up on them, she doesn't really sound like an INFJ at all to me. That, or she was just a terribly bad example.

INFJs can be complete bastards and bitches when you don't understand their feelings (the doorslam), but they're usually at least willing to return the favour. By the sounds of it, she didn't take much interest in anyone but herself.

Regarding your last remark, I never said that other types are incapable of it. Sorry if that's how it came across. My point is that there are certain types where the kind of approach we take to feelings and emotions is rarely considered or given the amount of focus we give to them... INTPs, for example.

 

[duck!]

She tested an INFJ many times and I believe that she was. She has a lot of the strong INFJ traits -- she is extremely empathetic and devoted to social causes. She's excellent at what she does (which is very people-oriented). She's incredibly intuitive and is very good at getting the truth out of other people in situations. She's also (usually) an excellent judge of character.

I also know that INFJs under stress can be quite self-absorbed because they constantly look within themselves to solve crises. They self-analyze a lot, using their considerable emotive energies to process the crap that's taking place in the world around them.

I should add that these were not surface problems she had. These were very real external issues. I can't go into them, but she deals with constant heartache. She was often at an utter loss as to how to cope with her deep feelings, hence the constant analysis.

I think she had let her guard down with me so much that I was a steward for her deepest emotions. And, as you know, INFJs have an almost-bottomless capacity to feel emotion. I would say that the emotional stress of taking on such a significant burden is tremendous. I have no idea how I managed it for as long as I did.

 

[Words of Ivory]

Simple. You were willing to listen.

 

[duck!]

I'm just very sad that my willingness cost me so much. I hope that as she goes forward she'll have friends who are healthier for her and can be there for her in a way that I couldn't be.

 

[mochajava]

Duck, I don't think your lack of bottomless support was the problem. I don't think her extreme pain was the problem. I think that you were both stuck in an untenable situation. She wasn't getting better -- life is sort of debilitated if you're spending ~5 hours a week feeling awful to the point that you're on the phone talking about it. And, for you, for any of us -- providing that much support is just difficult. People who are therapists do that, but they're trained, paid, and the whole feeling supported / staying okay thing is built into their lives. So I don't think either of us is wrong or did anything wrong. The situation just didn't make sense for either of you. Does that make sense? And sorry if this carries a know-it-all tone; please know that this is just one person's viewpoint from reading one post you wrote.

 

[SilkRoad]

Duck, I don't think your lack of bottomless support was the problem. I don't think her extreme pain was the problem. I think that you were both stuck in an untenable situation. She wasn't getting better -- life is sort of debilitated if you're spending ~5 hours a week feeling awful to the point that you're on the phone talking about it. And, for you, for any of us -- providing that much support is just difficult. People who are therapists do that, but they're trained, paid, and the whole feeling supported / staying okay thing is built into their lives. So I don't think either of us is wrong or did anything wrong. The situation just didn't make sense for either of you. Does that make sense? And sorry if this carries a know-it-all tone; please know that this is just one person's viewpoint from reading one post you wrote.

Yeah, I totally agree with all this. Despite the annoying and rather painful situation I've described, and a few other situations I've had in my life, I have never been in a friendship/relationship where the person was unburdening themselves for hours at a time several times a week... How exhausting and debilitating would that be? Surely people must understand that something like therapy is the best option at that point? "untenable situation"...exactly.

 

[mochajava]

And, just to add, I'm coming around to the idea that "therapy" doesn't mean something's wrong with you or that you're screwed up -- it might just mean you need someone who will deal with your problems, has the right internal and external resources to do so, is impartial, will "critique" and know what's unhealthy, and has the right knowledge/connections to hook you up to something better. If they're good, that is... but that being said, some mutual give and take / talking about problems is good too. If you're really close to someone, but not doing that in your relationships at all, then it's like an area is blocked. Not necessarily bad, maybe it's blocked for a reason, but in balance this can be a really nice thing.

 

[SilkRoad]

And, just to add, I'm coming around to the idea that "therapy" doesn't mean something's wrong with you or that you're screwed up -- it might just mean you need someone who will deal with your problems, has the right internal and external resources to do so, is impartial, will "critique" and know what's unhealthy, and has the right knowledge/connections to hook you up to something better. If they're good, that is... but that being said, some mutual give and take / talking about problems is good too. If you're really close to someone, but not doing that in your relationships at all, then it's like an area is blocked. Not necessarily bad, maybe it's blocked for a reason, but in balance this can be a really nice thing.

+1 for all of this. Nothing wrong with needing therapy. I've had it recently for a phobia. I know others who've had it, in fact I wouldn't mind having some more in my life at some point... And yeah, talking about problems with friends is great. It's finding that balance, and those nasty moments when you realise that the whole thing is totally out of balance.

 

[mochajava]

and those nasty moments when you realise that the whole thing is totally out of balance.

So true. But I want to believe that these can be worked through, even if it means some distance for some time.

 

[skylights]

therapy is great! i wish i could afford it

after all the psychology classes i've taken, i'm totally convinced that there's nothing remotely "weak" or "wrong" about going to therapy - even if you seem/feel completely mentally healthy. everyone's got challenges and talking that out with someone with whom a social bond is not on the line is very freeing.

 

[SilkRoad]

therapy is great! i wish i could afford it

after all the psychology classes i've taken, i'm totally convinced that there's nothing remotely "weak" or "wrong" about going to therapy - even if you seem/feel completely mentally healthy. everyone's got challenges and talking that out with someone with whom a social bond is not on the line is very freeing.

I live in a country with public health care and I got therapy for free through it which frankly I thought was pretty amazing. I mean, when I told the doctor I was suffering when I was flying I fully expected them to prescribe me anti-anxiety drugs. Instead they asked if I wanted six free sessions of therapy! They even got me into it almost right away, though they had warned me that I might be on a waiting list for a while...it didn't work out that way. Hey, people complain about how the public health care works but at least it's there... And yeah, i wouldn't mind having some more just for my life generally

So true. But I want to believe that these can be worked through, even if it means some distance for some time.

I'd like to think so but it's hard to know. Especially when your friendship with someone has frankly always been rather a challenge. Sigh. There's a part of me with this recent situation that feels like I've just walked away from this person maybe in a time of need. Although I did stick around for a few years of unproductive venting...

 

[CzeCze]

Just wanted to say that being a good listener and being a trained therapist are very different. People find me easy to talk to and share with irl bc I am nonjudgemental. But. I no longer attract a small army of randoms. I value myself too much and I believe too much in tough love. I think if you lack the will and wisdom to put your foot down to certain things that you also lack a key trait necessary to really help people. I find that people seek those who listen and enable but are much less receptive to actual constructive criticism and reminders about reality. People also hate hearing how they are wrong. Understandeable but I find really helping people takes a real investment and I do not have a lot of patience for people who don't really want to change. Or simply won't because what they need is something you can't give them.

I think basically I am more willing to listen and help when I can tell you don't feel entitled to my energy.

I get satisfaction from helping people but I think anyone who has this experience being a magnet for troubled folks or unloaders should learn by a certain point who the red flags are and what your own limits and boundaries are.

Then again perhaps being that person who is burdened by others unburdening unto you - maybe that's just some people's role in life.

 

[SilkRoad]

I find really helping people takes a real investment and I do not have a lot of patience for people who don't really want to change. Or simply won't because what they need is something you can't give them.

Yes, you are so right about this. I am telling myself I shouldn't feel guilty about my recent situation with this friend because I invested a lot over quite a long period of time, got very little back, and frankly the person has shown again and again that they have a pattern of inconsistent behaviour and of talking big, but being unable or unwilling to do much anything to help themselves.

Again, it's such a balancing act to care and try to help, but to not become over-invested. I haven't quite worked that one out and of course it is different in every situation.

 

[CzeCze]

Sometimes leaving people is the eye opener they need. Sometimes people take adantage wo meaning to but they still know they are doing it. Some troubled people will actually respect you more and listen to you better when they know you are willing to leave them.

SilkRoad if you really did everything you could I would not feel bad. They mightve just dragged you down with them.

 

[Coco]

LOL i read upload on you so I was thinking like if I was imageshack hahahahahahaha

i think i need some sleep

 

[CzeCze]

Once I had this happen another way around, though... I had this friend who I had shared many things with, and had gotten a lot better by the "therapeutic" relationship. The thing is, I saw her after a six months I've been away, and it was weird, I was quite ok now, but she kept trying to dig something, some more wounds out of me. And it wasn't enough to say that I was really ok now and don't need it. I think she interpreted it like I was in denial with my problems. Well, what I did was distance myself, once again. I felt uneasy being a puzzle for someone to solve, no matter how much I felt gratitude for her being there for me when I needed it.

How long were you friends before the realtionship turned therapy? I feel like I've been in a similar situation w/ an infp I dated where almst from get go I was her support. It was very heavy burdeen and she put me through some ish. Then one day she decided she was better and refused to acknowledge the dyanmics of our relationship or even really say Kthank you". And she wasn't all better, if she were feeling better she never really sharred that revelation with me.

Basically I was pissed and thought she was incredibly selfish . It was all about her and if you didn't want to swallow her changing mood you were not supporting her.

Not saying this hppened with you, but you can't really blame your friend for being confused I- in a way your relationship locked her into the role ofe your helper or even savior and it's like being "on call" in an emergency situation. The helper hyper focuses on you and prioritize your well being, they are primed to cater to you basically. Then when it seems like ]OOM I'm better now it takes adjusting. You really have to take baby steps to reeadjust your relationship and on her end she may be frustrateed bc she sees you doing the same thing you did before - even though things are actually not "problems" she reads them as you being in the same troubled state. If she did not know you well befpre the troubles she has no true ruler of what "Normal Nolla" looks like, all she knows is "Troubled Nolla" so everythiing you do will remind her of your troubled self.

Its good you got some distance, I hope you also told her explixitly that you appreciated her being there to go on that difficult walk with you but you've come out the other side better and have really changed as a person. And you look forward to getting to know he "all over again". I think theese kind of official freesh start conversations are crucial to have with folks after sharing intense experiences or helping someone through a dark stage.

If that doesn't work then sometimes you just have to let time settlle it.

 

[SilkRoad]

If that doesn't work then sometimes you just have to let time settlle it.

Sometimes it can take a lot of time...I've had a couple of friendships-gone-bad where it's been a couple of years before we re-established contact and things got back on an even keel. Actually, I find that in those cases you're more likely to be amicable again but to be more like acquaintances than close friends. Which is sad but perhaps better.

In the case of my friend in this thread, the more I think about it, I think it's likely the friendship will just peter out. I told him I wanted to maintain the friendship in other ways but his response suggests he's not much interested. And I don't have the energy to chase after him at the moment. And when I think about it, you know what? Most of our conversations were about him and how confused he is, so actually we might not have many other things to talk about.