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  1. #41
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    balls are metaphysical, I'm a female aswell damnit!! don't you people know growing balls=being able to dish out shit and take it aswell. not worrying how the person feels in the moment but rather the long run

  2. #42
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    The exchange about balls literally made me laugh out loud... and yes, metaphorical balls. A friend used to tell me, "you have honorary balls". So all the intangible characteristics of cohones were mine

  3. #43
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    balls are metaphysical, I'm a female aswell damnit!! don't you people know growing balls=being able to dish out shit and take it aswell. not worrying how the person feels in the moment but rather the long run
    Yes, I do know about metaphorical balls. I was just being difficult. (I do prefer the expression "strap on a pair" to "growing some". It also seems more appropriate when you're female.)

    I suppose it's fair to say I don't have any. Or when I'm dealing with other people, I'm trying so hard to not hurt either them or myself that sometimes it's counter-productive. Tough love is not my speciality. But the whole school of thought that cutting such people loose, both for your own self-preservation and because it might help them wake up to their own situation and how they're behaving, has a great deal of merit. So, maybe I do need to strap on a pair.

    As far as the ESFP or whatever he is, I had mentioned that I might see him over the weekend in a large social group. I ended up not going to the BBQ I was invited to, partly because I'm kind of crazed with packing up my apartment at the moment, partly because I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle and awkwardness it might entail. I sent a private message on Facebook to the host of the BBQ saying I couldn't make it because of packing etc, sorry but maybe next time etc etc.

    Later that day she posted a status update on FB about the BBQ. I commented and again said sorry I couldn't make it and hoped we could catch up another time. (I didn't hear back from her at all, but we're not particularly close so it didn't bother or surprise me.) The next day when I checked FB, the ESFP had posted right under my comment saying "thanks babe! I had sooooo much fun! It was such a great night!"

    maybe I'm just paranoid but my reaction was...wow, you're quite a little bitch aren't you? (I didn't post that, almost wish I had!) It just seemed like he was making a point of how much fun he'd had with these friends (who he'd been distancing himself from until recently, and complaining to me about them) and without me there. I was both hurt and angry, I must say. Maybe he didn't even think about it but if it was deliberate, it was pretty mean considering how very careful I've been to reassure him of my continued friendship and that I wanted to make efforts to sustain the friendship. Perhaps he was only interested in it as long as I was making myself available as the on-call therapist.

    It's just another indication that I need to detach. I've discussed this situation with various people, mostly in the abstract, and also with one close friend who knows the ESFP as well and knows about the whole situation. Everyone says things like "you can't save people who won't help themselves...people like that are negative and exhausting to be around...if you step away it might actually help them sort themselves out...he's unstable, immature and confused."

    So, yeah. But it all feels rather unpleasant and sad.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    But the whole school of thought that cutting such people loose, both for your own self-preservation and because it might help them wake up to their own situation and how they're behaving, has a great deal of merit. So, maybe I do need to strap on a pair.
    Yeah. I've done that with three close friends over the past couple of years. It wasn't easy, but necessary, as you said, for my own self preservation. I still can't help thinking I've abandonned them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Later that day she posted a status update on FB about the BBQ. I commented and again said sorry I couldn't make it and hoped we could catch up another time. (I didn't hear back from her at all, but we're not particularly close so it didn't bother or surprise me.) The next day when I checked FB, the ESFP had posted right under my comment saying "thanks babe! I had sooooo much fun! It was such a great night!"
    Some people are just clueless and thoughless. Some people are simply not smart enough to be as sinister or nasty as we may imagine. (At least that's been my experience. As a intuitive, I read into everything - too much if I'm feeling insecure). If he really is a SP, maybe he's just expressing how much fun he had (in a literal sense). SPs are all into having a good time whether you're there or not. Or maybe he was just drunk when he posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Maybe he didn't even think about it but if it was deliberate, it was pretty mean considering how very careful I've been to reassure him of my continued friendship and that I wanted to make efforts to sustain the friendship.
    No. Most likely he's just clueless, which incidentally, I don't think is a valid excuse. It's just the way many people behave. Believe me, you'll make yourself crazy if you expect others to act in the "thoughtful" way you do - at least that's been my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Perhaps he was only interested in it as long as I was making myself available as the on-call therapist.
    Perhaps he was using you in an unconscious way. Although most likely just clueless regarding his own insensitive behavior. Sometimes, I find it helps me to try to forgive those that I percieve as "clueless' relaizing that they're just being themselves and don't know how to behave in any other way. But, of course, that's not easy.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    This story was helpful when I read it a few years ago. I often pull it out my drawer and read it when I feel I'm being pulled into this kind of relationship. Maybe you'll find it helpful too.

    The Bridge - A Metaphor

    There was a man who had given much thought to what he wanted from life. He had experienced many moods and trials. He had experimented with different ways of living, and he had had his share of both success and failure. At last, he had begun to see clearly where he wanted to go.

    Diligently, he searched for the right opportunity. Sometimes he came close, only to be pushed away. Often the applied all of his strength and imagination, only to find the path hopelessly blocked. And then at last it came! But the opportunity would not wait. It would be made available only for a short time. If it were seen that he was not committed, the opportunity would not come again.

    Eager to arrive, he started on his journey. With each step, he wanted to move faster; with each thought about his goal, his heart beat quicker; with each vision of what lay ahead, he found renewed vigor. Strength that had left it since his early youth returned, and desires, all kinds of desires, reawakened from their long-dormant positions.

    Hurrying along, he came upon a bridge that crossed through the middle of a town. It had been built high above a river in order to protect it from the floods of spring.

    He started across. Then he noticed someone coming from the opposite direction. As they moved closer, it seemed as though the other was coming to greet him. He could clearly see, however, that he did not know this other, who was dressed similarly except for something tied around his waist.

    When they were within hailing distance, he could see that what the other had about his waist was a rope. It was wrapped around him many times and probably, if extended, would reach a length of 30 feet.

    The other began to uncurl the rope, and, just as they were coming close, the stranger said, "Pardon me, would you be so kind as to hold the end a moment?"

    Surprised by this politely phrased but curious request, he agreed without a thought, reached out, and took it.

    "Thank you," said the other, who then added, "two hands now, and remember, hold tight." Whereupon, the other jumped off the bridge.

    Quickly, the free-falling body hurtled the distance of the rope’s length, and from the bridge, the man abruptly felt the pull. Instinctively, he held tight and was almost dragged over the side. He managed to brace himself against the edge, however, and after having caught his breath looked down at the other dangling, close to oblivion.

    "What are you trying to do?" he yelled. "Just hold tight," said the other "This is ridiculous," the man thought and began trying to haul the other in. He could not get the leverage, however. It was as though the weight of the other person and the length of the rope had been carefully calculated in advance so that together they created a counterweight just beyond his strength to bring the other back to safety.

    "Why did you do this?" the man called out. "Remember," said the other, "if you let go, I will be lost." "But I cannot pull you up," the man cried. "I am your responsibility," said the other. "Well, I did not ask for it," the man said. "If you let go, I am lost," repeated the other.

    He began to look around for help. But there was no one. How long would he have to wait? Why did this happen to befall him now, just as he was on the verge of true success? He examined the side, searching for a place to tie the rope. Some protrusion, perhaps, or maybe a hole in the boards. But the railing was unusually uniform in shape; there were no spaces between the boards. There was no way to get rid of this newfound burden, even temporarily.

    What do you want?" he asked the other hanging below. "Just your help," the other answered. "How can I help? I cannot pull you in, and there is no place to tie the rope so that I can go and find someone to help me help you." "I know that. Just hang on; that will be enough. Tie the rope around your waist; it will be easier."

    Fearing that his arms could not hold out much longer, he tied the rope around his waist. "Why did you do this?" he asked again. "Don’t you see what you have done? What possible purpose could you have in mind?" "Just remember," said the other, "my life is in your hands."

    What should he do? "If I let go, all my life I will know that I let this other die. If I stay, I risk losing my momentum toward my own long-sought-after salvation. Either way, this will haunt me forever." With ironic humor he thought to die himself, instantly, to jump off the bridge while he was still holding on. "That would teach this fool." But he wanted to live and live fully. "What a choice I have to make; How shall I ever decide?"

    As time went by, still no one came. The critical moment of decision was drawing near. To show his commitment to his own goals, he would have to continue on his journey now. It was already almost too late to arrive in time. But what a terrible choice to have to make!

    A new thought occurred to him. While he could not pull this other up solely by his own efforts, if the other would shorten the rope from his end by curling it around his waist again and again, together, they could do it! Actually, the other could do it by himself, so long as he, standing on the bridge, kept it still and steady.

    "Now listen," he shouted down. "I think I know how to save you." And he explained his plan. But the other wasn’t interested. "You mean you won’t help? But I told you I cannot pull you up myself, and I don’t think I can hang on much longer either." "You must try," the other shouted back in tears. "If you fail, I die!"

    The point of decision had arrived. What should he do? "My life or this other’s?" And then a new idea. A revelation. So new, in fact, it seemed heretical, so alien was it to his traditional way of thinking.

    "I want you to listen carefully," he said, "because I mean what I am about to say. I will not accept the position of choice for your life, only for my own; the position of choice for your own life I hereby give back to you."

    "What do you mean?" the other asked, afraid. "I mean, simply, it’s up to you. You decide which way this ends. I will become the counterweight. You do the pulling and bring yourself up. I will even tug a little from here." He began unwinding the rope from around his waist and braced himself anew against the side.

    "You cannot mean what you say!" the other shrieked. "You would not be so selfish. I am your responsibility. What could be so important that you would let someone die? Do not do this to me!"

    He waited a moment. There was not change in the tension of the rope.

    "I accept your choice," he said, at last, and freed his hands.


    - Edwin H. Friedman

  6. #46
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Onceajoan:
    t least that's been my experience. As a intuitive, I read into everything - too much if I'm feeling insecure).
    I'm with you on this one.

    Oh my goodness. I like the rope allegory...

  7. #47
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Onceajoan - thanks for the input, and the parable. I do know that when I am feeling tired, hurt and sensitive I am more likely to take things personally. And even at the best of times I can be paranoid. I just didn't appreciate the comment.

    As for the parable - yeah. The ending feels harsh (I can be quite literal-minded, haha, see the conversation above about balls) but I like the fact that it highlights that the person hanging off the rope makes a choice, to not help themselves. Of course, the person who lets go probably ends up with guilt anyway

    I just don't get how people get to that stage. Maybe it's a subject for a whole other thread. I mean, the stage of feeling (consciously or subconsciously) that someone else is responsible for babysitting them through their bad decisions, their reversal of their good decisions, that that other person is being selfish if they say "you know, these are your decisions to make, and I'm afraid you're going to have to make them without reference to me."

    Is it just a general lack of personal responsibility? (which I do believe is one of society's biggest ills today)
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post
    This story was helpful when I read it a few years ago. I often pull it out my drawer and read it when I feel I'm being pulled into this kind of relationship. Maybe you'll find it helpful too.

    The Bridge - A Metaphor
    Holy. Crap.

    How poignant. Thanks for this

  9. #49
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Honestly ?

    Usually simple "I don't care" does the trick.
    Or maybe I will show them where they did a logical hole in their "plan" and walk away.
    Or I will fake that I am listening.

    The person would litterally need to be devastated for me to show care. (and I can't help myself)

  10. #50
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I just don't get how people get to that stage. Maybe it's a subject for a whole other thread. I mean, the stage of feeling (consciously or subconsciously) that someone else is responsible for babysitting them through their bad decisions, their reversal of their good decisions, that that other person is being selfish if they say "you know, these are your decisions to make, and I'm afraid you're going to have to make them without reference to me."

    Is it just a general lack of personal responsibility? (which I do believe is one of society's biggest ills today)
    while i wasn't quite as bad as your friend or others with whom i've had this problem (at least i really hope not...), i have been there and i have to say i feel it extends a bit beyond the realm of lacking personal responsibility. especially if you're depressed and spiraling downward it can be really hard to think clearly enough to make your own decisions, much less good ones, and it makes passing your decisions onto other who you perceive to be more capable/healthy a very tempting option. Being in a bad state of mind really does things to you, and i think in this kind of situation lacking personal responsibility can be one of those things.

    i think part of the problem i have with being direct when people do this to me is because this is how i experienced it myself; while it drags me down and wears me out emotionally, i can't help but project my understanding of being in their shoes onto them knowing that the only thing that's truly going to get them out of this is themselves. ime doing that all alone hard enough, realizing that i've dragged so many others with me along the way makes it even harder.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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