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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Default "Owning" Your Feelings

    This is what I have a very hard time with. Other non-Fours may experience the same thing, I don't know. How is this rationalization of feelings different from what the Ti/Te doms/auxs do?

    Healthy Fours are honest with themselves: they own all of their feelings and can look at their motives, contradictions, and emotional conflicts without denying or whitewashing them. They may not necessarily like what they discover, but they do not try to rationalize their states, nor do they try to hide them from themselves or others. They are not afraid to see themselves “warts and all.” Healthy Fours are willing to reveal highly personal and potentially shameful things about themselves because they are determined to understand the truth of their experience—so that they can discover who they are and come to terms with their emotional history. This ability also enables Fours to endure suffering with a quiet strength. Their familiarity with their own darker nature makes it easier for them to process painful experiences that might overwhelm other types.
    In order for me to be healthier, I am supposed to ... express ... my feelings even when I am uncertain? I am supposed to show them even if I feel it is irrelevant and irrational to the current situation. What is the difference between 'working through it by one-self' and 'hiding it from others in an unhealthy way'?

  2. #2
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    This is what I have a very hard time with. Other non-Fours may experience the same thing, I don't know. How is this rationalization of feelings different from what the Ti/Te doms/auxs do?

    In order for me to be healthier, I am supposed to ... express ... my feelings even when I am uncertain? I am supposed to show them even if I feel it is irrelevant and irrational to the current situation. What is the difference between 'working through it by one-self' and 'hiding it from others in an unhealthy way'?
    I am probably out of my league here, but I would say that hiding feelings from others becomes unhealthy only if one is also hiding them from themselves. If one truly is working through them, albeit in private or with only one's closest friends, this seems healthy enough.

    I am curious, though: what is meant by rationalizing feelings? As a Te aux, is this something I am supposed to do? Do I do it without even realizing it? Also, how does one actually "own up" to feelings? Is anything short of denial considered owning up?

  3. #3
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    In order for me to be healthier, I am supposed to ... express ... my feelings even when I am uncertain? I am supposed to show them even if I feel it is irrelevant and irrational to the current situation. What is the difference between 'working through it by one-self' and 'hiding it from others in an unhealthy way'?
    I read that as saying that you sometimes need outside verification of your conclusions about your feelings of a situation. 4s tend to be individualistic and willing to shoulder all the burden on ourselves, but having so/relatives/friends who we can talk to is good too. It might even be more helpful when you are uncertain.

    I remember times when I would be kept up all night because I felt I did something wrong and made someone I cared about angry at me. Talking to her the next day made me realize that she wasn't even annoyed.

    Working through it by one-self is good if we can find the light at the end of the correct tunnel, but many times we pick a wrong conclusion and end up either ignoring the problem (whitewashing), or somehow finding ourselves at fault.

    That's the rationalizing part of it. It's too easy to blame ourselves or others for what we feel. Being healthy as mentioned in that paragraph is not to make excuses for feeling and having feelings. Sometimes there is just no reason why we feel sad or melancholic or vengeful or envious. It's not because there is something wrong with us. We are imperfect human beings just like everyone else is.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

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    I think about the possibilities first, and then I feel, which fuels the thinking even further. Unhealthy me will do that process on repeat, whereas healthy me will stop. I don't know of any better ways to explain it. I'm a type five, nine, four, six, something.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am curious, though: what is meant by rationalizing feelings? As a Te aux, is this something I am supposed to do? Do I do it without even realizing it? Also, how does one actually "own up" to feelings? Is anything short of denial considered owning up?
    To me: I know fully well that feelings are very fickle, do not last and sometimes just has no place in a situation.

    If situation warrants X, but I feel Y, I feel/think that I should 'ignore how I feel' or 'ignore the situation'. Either one. I usually ignore how I feel as I know my feelings will change, it could change to X or Z. Who knows.

    Feelings just comes and goes with me. Some days, I am stuck on something and is moody. The very next day or the end of that day, I feel totally fine and in control. It's like I have no control of how I 'feel' and since I don't, why should I listen to all these feelings? I will only validate the ones that makes sense to the external situation. But yet, these feelings do come from somewhere. The best thing is to not have these contradictory feelings at all. But how does one do that?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    But how does one do that?
    I don't think it's possible. Having contradictory feelings to me shows signs of open-mindedness. If you can comprehend both feelings you get the choice between them. It just depends on how you pick the emotion that you want to remain. That choice is difficult to make, thus the irony, how do you make a choice when each one is equally plausible. This is easily fixed though, because if you find them equally sufficient then both are equally right and wrong so it doesn't matter. This is just me though.

  7. #7
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    Healthy Fours are honest with themselves: they own all of their feelings and can look at their motives, contradictions, and emotional conflicts without denying or whitewashing them. They may not necessarily like what they discover, but they do not try to rationalize their states, nor do they try to hide them from themselves or others. They are not afraid to see themselves “warts and all.” Healthy Fours are willing to reveal highly personal and potentially shameful things about themselves because they are determined to understand the truth of their experience—so that they can discover who they are and come to terms with their emotional history. This ability also enables Fours to endure suffering with a quiet strength. Their familiarity with their own darker nature makes it easier for them to process painful experiences that might overwhelm other types.

    Lets take a look at this quote.

    Self honesty according to this paragraph, is contingent on two principal things:

    1. Owning feelings
    2. Looking at everything below the surface with objective scrutiny and rigor, regardless of what you may find. And accepting these things, by moving through the shame, that may be a result of inside and external exposure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    In order for me to be healthier, I am supposed to ... express ... my feelings even when I am uncertain? I am supposed to show them even if I feel it is irrelevant and irrational to the current situation. What is the difference between 'working through it by one-self' and 'hiding it from others in an unhealthy way'?
    What does it mean to express your feelings when you are 'uncertain'?. Perhaps the root of the problem lies in uncertainty. Uncertainty comes from somewhere. Why are you uncertain? is it because you don't want to see something for what it is? are you hiding something from yourself? are you missing details because you are tied up in a subjective orientation?

    I think what this paragraph means by revealing yourself to your own self and others, is about the process of getting real about what's really going on, not just inside your head, but your whole persona. It's not suggesting you always express everything that's going on, but you allow yourself to exist genuinely in the external world; it's suggesting that you take on board external as well as internal evaluation. You cannot be evaluated by yourself or others, if the image you project, muddles the semblance between what you seem and what you are.
    Sometimes outside input is necessary, when you are so far caught up in your own smoke and mirrors. Shame may prevent you from not just expressing yourself, but being who you truthfully are. You might say, "well maybe I'm honestly cynical, dark and bleak.. I project a caring image because not many people can handle that". Well, maybe being cynical, dark and bleak, is a defense mechanism? maybe that's not honestly who you are. Are you prepared to let that go? are you prepared to be something that is not a projection of how you'd like to be seen, defense mechanism, or conglomeration of how (you perceive) the external world has 'forced you to be'? (the last 2 I'm mainly referring to unhealthy fours here).

    What happens when you show your feelings? your true feelings? how vulnerable does that make you feel as a four? < that's what it's like to be who you really are. It's potentially very shameful. Why? for many reasons; including the fact that maybe your feelings aren't going to be validated or accepted. As a four, you may feel exposed every time you are genuinely expressing any detail of your self. Some people express theirselves very freely. I dare say you have a friend who literally talks your ear off about the intricacies of their life, without hesitation. I daresay that's not what you're comfortable with. But my point is that it's possible to be incredibly open; but certain people are predisposed to think in that way. Just as some people are not predisposed to be so open because of certain things, like shame.

    You don't what to be irrational, I understand that. Who does? but getting real with yourself involves accepting everything you feel emotionally or otherwise firstly, without rationalising it. Saying, "I'm not just going to observe this problem; I'm going to get to the root of this problem, and keep digging regardless of how much I hate what I'm doing. And i'm going to accept what I find and acknowledge that what I feel is inside me. It's from me. It encompasses me". Suspend the judgment until you get to the root. Because you might stop digging at the surface if you think what's there is irrational.
    Is being irrational shameful to you? does it hurt when someone points out a flaw to your thinking? if someone presents you with an alternate way of thinking about something?

    What's a more problematic/threatening situation?; the potential for fours to become resentful, more and more withdrawn and hostile, and lost in subjectivity as a result of building up feelings?; or expressing genuine feelings in a truthful, open and appropriate manner, even though the result may be a bad reception from somebody, which results in shame, hurt, anger etc. ??

    Something I am personally working through is outside evaluation. Letting go of the notion of emotional invalidation, and embracing alternate viewpoints. It is hard to admit to holding a perspective that is considered by others to be irrational, even to your own self. Hard to see it; harder to admit. If you take away that shame of being 'seen' as irrational to yourself and others, accept that adopting alternate viewpoints is not being in genuine to your feelings; that objectivity can be relinquishing; you take away the fear of expressing something irrational in the wrong context. If you learn to accept it, you may learn to see, that others pointing out irrationality is nothing to be afraid of- and that you control your perception and judgments of others comments.

    Ultimately you can learn to find an appropriate manner in which to express your feelings, to other people, to professionals, through art etc, that minimises risk, whilst still being genuine and honest and opening yourself up to be exposed. As a four, I suppose you are constantly going to be walking that fine line between risk/safety and honesty/simulation. You need to accept the shame and possibility for hurt, move through it.


    Fours may get in the trap of not wanting to evaluate what they feel is genuine. But it's like the all seeing eye which cannot see itself; sometimes you don't acknowledge the filters which skew your judgment.
    Clarity in thought is what allows you to see clearly, accurately evaluate, and genuinely feel.

    But it all starts with acceptance, otherwise you're not going to want to dig until you get to the truth. Truth is nothing until you accept it. Until you acknowledge what it is and what it means. And why it is the truth. Only then does the full gravity hit you.

    Imagine knowing the truth of who you really are? imagine what that might feel like? peak self actualisation... peak self consciousness perhaps?

  8. #8
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Feelings just comes and goes with me. Some days, I am stuck on something and is moody. The very next day or the end of that day, I feel totally fine and in control. It's like I have no control of how I 'feel' and since I don't, why should I listen to all these feelings? I will only validate the ones that makes sense to the external situation. But yet, these feelings do come from somewhere. The best thing is to not have these contradictory feelings at all. But how does one do that?

    Do you ever have a strong feeling that only makes sense to you months, perhaps years, afterwards?

  9. #9
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelandic View Post
    I think what this paragraph means by revealing yourself to your own self and others, is about the process of getting real about what's really going on, not just inside your head, but your whole persona. It's not suggesting you always express everything that's going on, but you allow yourself to exist genuinely in the external world; it's suggesting that you take on board external as well as internal evaluation. You cannot be evaluated by yourself or others, if the image you project, muddles the semblance between what you seem and what you are.
    Sometimes outside input is necessary, when you are so far caught up in your own smoke and mirrors. Shame may prevent you from not just expressing yourself, but being who you truthfully are. You might say, "well maybe I'm honestly cynical, dark and bleak.. I project a caring image because not many people can handle that". Well, maybe being cynical, dark and bleak, is a defense mechanism? maybe that's not honestly who you are. Are you prepared to let that go? are you prepared to be something that is not a projection of how you'd like to be seen, defense mechanism, or conglomeration of how (you perceive) the external world has 'forced you to be'? (the last 2 I'm mainly referring to unhealthy fours here).
    This is interesting. But how do we determine what we truly are? In your example above, the person realizes that the caring persona is an artificial projection, but how does he tell whether the dark and cynical self is real or another projection? If it is a projection or defense mechanism, how does he get beyond it to the real self?

  10. #10
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Feelings just comes and goes with me. Some days, I am stuck on something and is moody. The very next day or the end of that day, I feel totally fine and in control. It's like I have no control of how I 'feel' and since I don't, why should I listen to all these feelings? I will only validate the ones that makes sense to the external situation. But yet, these feelings do come from somewhere. The best thing is to not have these contradictory feelings at all. But how does one do that?
    To me, feelings are just one more input to the decision-making process. If I have contradictory feelings, I try to understand why. They may in fact represent divergent perspectives on a choice, or my hopes vs. my reservations. Even if I have one clear and unambiguous feeling, I try to understand it as well. Especially then, because I don't want to be misguided by it into acting unwisely in haste, overlooking potential problems or pitfalls. I always seek objective validation of the various perspectives, and will use this to make as rational a choice as I can, and mediate among conflicting feelings, guided ultimately by my values.

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