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  1. #11
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I find it's less about express and more about coming to terms with, unless you require expression in order to come to terms with it. I can be angry enough to rip a person's head off, but I don't rip their head off. Yet I still understand that I'm angry and I do need to do something about that through cooling off and either talking about it, seeing if the fault is with me, or if it's with the other person and I should seek to avoid them in the future.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  2. #12
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Do 7s commonly have these kind of problems? I don't think I've had a lot of times in my life where I didn't feel I was being honest, to atleast, myself.

  3. #13
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am curious, though: what is meant by rationalizing feelings? As a Te aux, is this something I am supposed to do? Do I do it without even realizing it? Also, how does one actually "own up" to feelings? Is anything short of denial considered owning up?
    As an enfp, I endlessly rationalize my feelings in order to learn what to or not to do again. Rationalize=post event Te discussion and dissection to determine what went wrong and how it went wrong. Once I do this, I forgive and move on and forgive both myself and others with the goal of non repetition.

    Typically though, the term is applied in a slightly insulting way indicative of a lack of emotional maturity.

    "I was totally justified in doing X because Bob did Y first to me". Thus we find reasons to justify our cruelty to others as being not our fault, having been deserved by the other person, even being caused totally by the other person, or just being part of the human condition ("well, everyone else steals so why shouldnt I?").

  4. #14
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    This is what I have a very hard time with. Other non-Fours may experience the same thing, I don't know. How is this rationalization of feelings different from what the Ti/Te doms/auxs do?



    In order for me to be healthier, I am supposed to ... express ... my feelings even when I am uncertain? I am supposed to show them even if I feel it is irrelevant and irrational to the current situation. What is the difference between 'working through it by one-self' and 'hiding it from others in an unhealthy way'?
    Rebe, I would suggest part of what this revelation is, includes self revelation-looking at yourself internally and being very self critical at times. But yeah, I would find sharing of my emotions openly to be utterly terrifying.

    I do recognize that INFPs are much better at ownership of emotions than ENFPs. I have had more than one INFP here psuedo lecture me that I should "take ownership of my emotions". It is very funny, as if I am hurt, it seems very natural to dump that hurt on the doorstep of them person who hurt me...Why shouldnt I tell them they hurt me?

    But there is something very legitimate to be said for internalizing that pain and sorting through it on my own, recognizing where I am to blame, and recognizing where I am not to blame. But I am still learning this so I dunno...

  5. #15
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I really identify with that description you posted Rebe. Where does it come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    I find it's less about express and more about coming to terms with, unless you require expression in order to come to terms with it. I can be angry enough to rip a person's head off, but I don't rip their head off. Yet I still understand that I'm angry and I do need to do something about that through cooling off and either talking about it, seeing if the fault is with me, or if it's with the other person and I should seek to avoid them in the future.
    I agree. Often the expression of a temporary emotion like anger is pointless. And I'm not interested in blowing up and then having to apologise afterwards. Its better that I work through it on my own.

    As an aside, one thing that really annoys me are people that insist on prodding you to open up when it's perfectly clear you are very annoyed with them and are making an effort to keep your temper. In the moment, I might deny I am angry or say it doesn't matter because I know the anger is irrational and I'm trying to prevent a silly and unnecessary argument. But some people will keep insisting that I say what is on my mind. I don't understand this. What is so great about opening up about a passing emotion that I will regret ever expressing? This happened once with a friend of mine, which resulting in me exploding and storming off. I stayed angry for a few hours and the next day I didn't care in the slightest about the issue we argued over. He then wanted to talk about it because he felt like we needed to resolve things but I basically said "its no big deal, we both said stupid things, its over now, lets just forget about it". I just wish we'd been spared the drama altogether.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #16
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelandic View Post
    Lets take a look at this quote.

    Self honesty according to this paragraph, is contingent on two principal things:

    1. Owning feelings
    2. Looking at everything below the surface with objective scrutiny and rigor, regardless of what you may find. And accepting these things, by moving through the shame, that may be a result of inside and external exposure.



    What does it mean to express your feelings when you are 'uncertain'?. Perhaps the root of the problem lies in uncertainty. Uncertainty comes from somewhere. Why are you uncertain? is it because you don't want to see something for what it is? are you hiding something from yourself? are you missing details because you are tied up in a subjective orientation?

    I think what this paragraph means by revealing yourself to your own self and others, is about the process of getting real about what's really going on, not just inside your head, but your whole persona. It's not suggesting you always express everything that's going on, but you allow yourself to exist genuinely in the external world; it's suggesting that you take on board external as well as internal evaluation. You cannot be evaluated by yourself or others, if the image you project, muddles the semblance between what you seem and what you are.
    Sometimes outside input is necessary, when you are so far caught up in your own smoke and mirrors. Shame may prevent you from not just expressing yourself, but being who you truthfully are. You might say, "well maybe I'm honestly cynical, dark and bleak.. I project a caring image because not many people can handle that". Well, maybe being cynical, dark and bleak, is a defense mechanism? maybe that's not honestly who you are. Are you prepared to let that go? are you prepared to be something that is not a projection of how you'd like to be seen, defense mechanism, or conglomeration of how (you perceive) the external world has 'forced you to be'? (the last 2 I'm mainly referring to unhealthy fours here).

    What happens when you show your feelings? your true feelings? how vulnerable does that make you feel as a four? < that's what it's like to be who you really are. It's potentially very shameful. Why? for many reasons; including the fact that maybe your feelings aren't going to be validated or accepted. As a four, you may feel exposed every time you are genuinely expressing any detail of your self. Some people express theirselves very freely. I dare say you have a friend who literally talks your ear off about the intricacies of their life, without hesitation. I daresay that's not what you're comfortable with. But my point is that it's possible to be incredibly open; but certain people are predisposed to think in that way. Just as some people are not predisposed to be so open because of certain things, like shame.

    You don't what to be irrational, I understand that. Who does? but getting real with yourself involves accepting everything you feel emotionally or otherwise firstly, without rationalising it. Saying, "I'm not just going to observe this problem; I'm going to get to the root of this problem, and keep digging regardless of how much I hate what I'm doing. And i'm going to accept what I find and acknowledge that what I feel is inside me. It's from me. It encompasses me". Suspend the judgment until you get to the root. Because you might stop digging at the surface if you think what's there is irrational.
    Is being irrational shameful to you? does it hurt when someone points out a flaw to your thinking? if someone presents you with an alternate way of thinking about something?

    What's a more problematic/threatening situation?; the potential for fours to become resentful, more and more withdrawn and hostile, and lost in subjectivity as a result of building up feelings?; or expressing genuine feelings in a truthful, open and appropriate manner, even though the result may be a bad reception from somebody, which results in shame, hurt, anger etc. ??

    Something I am personally working through is outside evaluation. Letting go of the notion of emotional invalidation, and embracing alternate viewpoints. It is hard to admit to holding a perspective that is considered by others to be irrational, even to your own self. Hard to see it; harder to admit. If you take away that shame of being 'seen' as irrational to yourself and others, accept that adopting alternate viewpoints is not being in genuine to your feelings; that objectivity can be relinquishing; you take away the fear of expressing something irrational in the wrong context. If you learn to accept it, you may learn to see, that others pointing out irrationality is nothing to be afraid of- and that you control your perception and judgments of others comments.

    Ultimately you can learn to find an appropriate manner in which to express your feelings, to other people, to professionals, through art etc, that minimises risk, whilst still being genuine and honest and opening yourself up to be exposed. As a four, I suppose you are constantly going to be walking that fine line between risk/safety and honesty/simulation. You need to accept the shame and possibility for hurt, move through it.


    Fours may get in the trap of not wanting to evaluate what they feel is genuine. But it's like the all seeing eye which cannot see itself; sometimes you don't acknowledge the filters which skew your judgment.
    Clarity in thought is what allows you to see clearly, accurately evaluate, and genuinely feel.

    But it all starts with acceptance, otherwise you're not going to want to dig until you get to the truth. Truth is nothing until you accept it. Until you acknowledge what it is and what it means. And why it is the truth. Only then does the full gravity hit you.

    Imagine knowing the truth of who you really are? imagine what that might feel like? peak self actualisation... peak self consciousness perhaps?
    Thanks so much. I will have to read this again and again and mull it over. This is exactly it though.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I really identify with that description you posted Rebe. Where does it come from?

    I agree. Often the expression of a temporary emotion like anger is pointless. And I'm not interested in blowing up and then having to apologise afterwards. Its better that I work through it on my own.

    As an aside, one thing that really annoys me are people that insist on prodding you to open up when it's perfectly clear you are very annoyed with them and are making an effort to keep your temper. In the moment, I might deny I am angry or say it doesn't matter because I know the anger is irrational and I'm trying to prevent a silly and unnecessary argument. But some people will keep insisting that I say what is on my mind. I don't understand this. What is so great about opening up about a passing emotion that I will regret ever expressing? This happened once with a friend of mine, which resulting in me exploding and storming off. I stayed angry for a few hours and the next day I didn't care in the slightest about the issue we argued over. He then wanted to talk about it because he felt like we needed to resolve things but I basically said "its no big deal, we both said stupid things, its over now, lets just forget about it". I just wish we'd been spared the drama altogether.
    Words out of my mouth, Southern Kross! What is it about us and unnecessary drama? Is this a Fi vs Fe thing, maybe simply introversion versus extroversion? It's like ... I am trying to tame my irrational monster, will you please stop poking it!

    Me mad, actually was furious.
    Person explains, explains, compliments, explains, sighs, says he is unhappy because I am mad.
    Me: "why are you indulging me? just leave me alone for a few hours and we will be fine."

  8. #18
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    "Yes I'm angry, and possibly for a silly reason. Back off and pick another subject or leave me alone."

    If that doesn't work I leave the situation.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #19
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    "Yes I'm angry, and possibly for a silly reason. Back off and pick another subject or leave me alone."

    If that doesn't work I leave the situation.
    You clearly have more restraint than I do. I am can get quite impassioned if I am pushed far enough...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #20
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    As an enfp, I endlessly rationalize my feelings in order to learn what to or not to do again. Rationalize=post event Te discussion and dissection to determine what went wrong and how it went wrong. Once I do this, I forgive and move on and forgive both myself and others with the goal of non repetition.

    Typically though, the term is applied in a slightly insulting way indicative of a lack of emotional maturity.

    "I was totally justified in doing X because Bob did Y first to me". Thus we find reasons to justify our cruelty to others as being not our fault, having been deserved by the other person, even being caused totally by the other person, or just being part of the human condition ("well, everyone else steals so why shouldnt I?").
    Yeah. How does one stop doing this?
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

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