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  1. #81
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    True which is why I don't fit in anywhere. I wish I could avoid people like that, I'm tired of being constantly judged as a silly weakling because I can't, say, work a well paying job if I don't enjoy doing it. That's pretty much the bulk of what I was referring to. Everyone wants me to eat shit and like it and from my economical, social and whatever position that's the only choice I have so I'd better get used to it.
    NO, DON'T GIVE IN.

    I feel the same way. People compare others to the same ideal they aspire to. What they don't realize is that the ideal I aspire to is nothing like what aspire to. They have no idea what they're talking about. Maybe being a "silly little weakling" (according to their standards) is right. (It may not be for them, but maybe it is for you). There are some skills and characteristics that are better suited to society but that doesn't mean that they're BETTER because not everybody benefits from conforming to society or believes it's right thing to do.

    Some people just can't think outside of the constraint of "this is the way things are done now" or "this is the way that makes the most sense to ME." Ignore them.

    Sometimes options are limited but recognize that there's a difference between the way things ARE and the way things SHOULD be. We all reserve the right to do what is best for ourselves and to want what will make us happy and fulfilled. Try not to be influenced by others and to make whatever decisions you think are in your best interest. Hard, I know.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    it's just a cultural bias...we currently live in a culture that is very work/money oriented - as if that is the entire meaning of life - where as in other cultures they put more emphasis on family, community, taking care of children and their elderly, or hey they just go home for naps in the middle of the day or take two hour lunch breaks so they actually enjoy their lives instead of working themselves to death

    it's a very American mindset to just "keep going" in the name of getting things done or making more money or being a useful fucking tool for XYZ Corporation but I have a very strong sense of identity so I'm capable of fighting it

    I also tend to have relationships with men who are feelers for this reason
    I agree, marm.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    True which is why I don't fit in anywhere. I wish I could avoid people like that, I'm tired of being constantly judged as a silly weakling because I can't, say, work a well paying job if I don't enjoy doing it. That's pretty much the bulk of what I was referring to. Everyone wants me to eat shit and like it and from my economical, social and whatever position that's the only choice I have so I'd better get used to it.
    What do you do to support yourself, then?

  4. #84
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    I was thinking about what T and F really mean, what is this logic and what are feelings, and what is the importance of having both. Combining what I learned from MBTI and reading some literature on evolutionary psychology and biology I got the following model built up:

    Thinking value system rigs one's brain to favor competition within one's species. It places more value on own self and less value in other individuals. Result is feelings of confidence, boosted self-value, awesomeness, but also perceiving other people have less value, deriving enjoyment from competition be it just sports and verbal sparring (arguments), up to making somebody else cry or even physical confrontation. T-value system also makes one be less interested in people and relationships in general. Not surprisingly most of male population tests as T-types. Some of the T-types however have easier access to feelings (all those whose feeling is their tertiary function).

    Feeling value system rigs one's brain for cooperation within one's species. It places a lot of value on other people and less value one oneself. As a result feelers may lack confidence and experience feelings of low self worth, however they will have increased interest in other people and relationships in general, more acutely aware of worth of others, more sympathetic and desiring to seek win-win situations rather than win-lose competitive situations. Competition is distasteful to F-types. Most of women test as F-types as well as about 20% of men. F-types with tertiary T-function will find it easier to access T-type logic.

    When decision stands to be made, our judgement function can reference either T or F value system. The two value systems, however, are inherently incompatible. When the feeling value system has been crossly violated, this sensation to us is known to us as guilt. When thinker value systems has been violated, this sensation is known to us as lack of respect, disdain. Not surprisingly it also plays into misunderstanding across genders. Unlike the N and S divide, or the I and E divide, this divide does actually correlate to gender and is responsible for the famous "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" saying.

    What happens if you don't process your feelings is that you may either completely reject them and use pure T-type logic in relations to other people. This can harm your relationships as you will start acting selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense. And on the other extreme if you don't take time to process your emotions this may lead you to act in a way that others will simply take advantage of you. You will be cooperating where you should have been competing, so once again it can harm you.

    So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :P Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.
    Thank you, sulfit! This is great, and I appreciate your perspective and extension on the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Once a person has taken the "you're silly for putting so much stock in emotions" position with you, everything you say from that point on is categorized as more senseless emotional babble.

    All of what has been shared in this thread is exactly why I have such a flat affect and present an emotionless face. There's just no point in any of it. Most people hate emotions and most people hate intuitives. It's a lose/lose.
    Yes, it's true. Many people who have this bias aren't going to be open to this information, particularly from "feelers" who they've already decided are "wrong" or "nonsensical." They don't want to hear it, they refuse to understand it, or they don't take it seriously. There are some exceptions, though, and I guess those are the people that I'm focused on.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    This. What if this exact same tool, even though it was ineffective, still gets you the same results with the other person in which it was effective. That doesn't make sense because then it technically would have been effective. Nevermind, I killed the thought.
    It happens.

  6. #86
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    it's just a cultural bias...we currently live in a culture that is very work/money oriented - as if that is the entire meaning of life - where as in other cultures they put more emphasis on family, community, taking care of children and their elderly, or hey they just go home for naps in the middle of the day or take two hour lunch breaks so they actually enjoy their lives instead of working themselves to death

    it's a very American mindset to just "keep going" in the name of getting things done or making more money or being a useful fucking tool for XYZ Corporation but I have a very strong sense of identity so I'm capable of fighting it

    I also tend to have relationships with men who are feelers for this reason
    Well-said, MarmaladeSunrise! I think my "other" (that is, my non-American) culture that I also grew up in helped me to see how vital emotions and intuition are. It is a communal, not individualistic, culture that makes up my other half.

  7. #87
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    NO, DON'T GIVE IN.

    I feel the same way. People compare others to the same ideal they aspire to. What they don't realize is that the ideal I aspire to is nothing like what aspire to. They have no idea what they're talking about. Maybe being a "silly little weakling" (according to their standards) is right. (It may not be for them, but maybe it is for you). There are some skills and characteristics that are better suited to society but that doesn't mean that they're BETTER because not everybody benefits from conforming to society or believes it's right thing to do.

    Some people just can't think outside of the constraint of "this is the way things are done now" or "this is the way that makes the most sense to ME." Ignore them.

    Sometimes options are limited but recognize that there's a difference between the way things ARE and the way things SHOULD be. We all reserve the right to do what is best for ourselves and to want what will make us happy and fulfilled. Try not to be influenced by others and to make whatever decisions you think are in your best interest. Hard, I know.
    Thanks for this, Liesl!

    And to the thinkers: I'm more technically effective (I spend all day looking at code) if I know what my emotions are up to

  8. #88
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    NO, DON'T GIVE IN.

    I feel the same way. People compare others to the same ideal they aspire to. What they don't realize is that the ideal I aspire to is nothing like what aspire to. They have no idea what they're talking about. Maybe being a "silly little weakling" (according to their standards) is right. (It may not be for them, but maybe it is for you). There are some skills and characteristics that are better suited to society but that doesn't mean that they're BETTER because not everybody benefits from conforming to society or believes it's right thing to do.

    Some people just can't think outside of the constraint of "this is the way things are done now" or "this is the way that makes the most sense to ME." Ignore them.

    Sometimes options are limited but recognize that there's a difference between the way things ARE and the way things SHOULD be. We all reserve the right to do what is best for ourselves and to want what will make us happy and fulfilled. Try not to be influenced by others and to make whatever decisions you think are in your best interest. Hard, I know.
    You're right but most of time, nothing in my life is my decision or even up for my consideration:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What do you do to support yourself, then?
    Oh, I do it (where I'm from, $9.50/hour is well paying). I do the menial, lower jobs like being a cashier, standing 9 hours a day, being berated, told there's nothing better than part time and worked 39.5 hours. Which is why I have to get used to it, it can't be changed. Not until I finish college. Which I'm not too motivated about but that has to be done and can't be changed, either.

    Right now I'm unemployed because apparently, being 22 instead of 17 and having some college (almost 2 straight years) as opposed to just getting out of HS or still being in is not wanted in this pressed job market. I would move into CSR and/or collecting but everyone around here wants experience. Also, my credit is tanked because of student loans and hospital bills. So no possibility for a passably good job.

    So, how do I not "feel"?
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #89
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    I'm not really all that concerned about what's "appropriate." And I decide for myself the extent to which I want to display my emotions. It's an individual choice. It goes back to what I was saying about personal wellbeing. You wouldn't want someone to force you to behave according to standards that weren't healthy for you, would you? It's just that different people have vastly different emotional needs and people often assume that other people approach the world with similar needs and wants for psychological health. False. What I need to do to live well and be happy could easily be vastly different from what you need to do.

    Edit: And it seems your last sentence is an example of what I'm objecting to. Someone else thinking that they know what is best for another person! This whole thread is about how people have fundamentally different end goals. And fundamentally different needs. So you can never know what is "best" for another person. Or what makes the most sense. Or what the best methods for them are. Et cetera.
    Indeed, Liesl. Now will you stop bothering us T's for being our cruel, emotionless, robotic selves?!

    (Half in jest. Har.
    ...but I hope you see my point.)

    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    I was thinking about what T and F really mean, what is this logic and what are feelings, and what is the importance of having both. Combining what I learned from MBTI and reading some literature on evolutionary psychology and biology I got the following model built up:

    Thinking value system rigs one's brain to favor competition within one's species. It places more value on own self and less value in other individuals. Result is feelings of confidence, boosted self-value, awesomeness, but also perceiving other people have less value, deriving enjoyment from competition be it just sports and verbal sparring (arguments), up to making somebody else cry or even physical confrontation. T-value system also makes one be less interested in people and relationships in general. Not surprisingly most of male population tests as T-types. Some of the T-types however have easier access to feelings (all those whose feeling is their tertiary function).


    Feeling value system rigs one's brain for cooperation within one's species. It places a lot of value on other people and less value one oneself. As a result feelers may lack confidence and experience feelings of low self worth, however they will have increased interest in other people and relationships in general, more acutely aware of worth of others, more sympathetic and desiring to seek win-win situations rather than win-lose competitive situations. Competition is distasteful to F-types. Most of women test as F-types as well as about 20% of men. F-types with tertiary T-function will find it easier to access T-type logic.

    When decision stands to be made, our judgement function can reference either T or F value system. The two value systems, however, are inherently incompatible. When the feeling value system has been crossly violated, this sensation to us is known to us as guilt. When thinker value systems has been violated, this sensation is known to us as lack of respect, disdain. Not surprisingly it also plays into misunderstanding across genders. Unlike the N and S divide, or the I and E divide, this divide does actually correlate to gender and is responsible for the famous "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" saying.

    What happens if you don't process your feelings is that you may either completely reject them and use pure T-type logic in relations to other people. This can harm your relationships as you will start acting selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense. And on the other extreme if you don't take time to process your emotions this may lead you to act in a way that others will simply take advantage of you. You will be cooperating where you should have been competing, so once again it can harm you.

    So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :P Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.
    Aw, I'm sure most T-type people don't "act selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense." At least not any of the mature ones.

    Is that a bias against T-type logic I see here or am I just being silly?

    Well, if it's not a bias, it is, at least, a less-than-solid understanding of T-type logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Once a person has taken the "you're silly for putting so much stock in emotions" position with you, everything you say from that point on is categorized as more senseless emotional babble.

    All of what has been shared in this thread is exactly why I have such a flat affect and present an emotionless face. There's just no point in any of it. Most people hate emotions and most people hate intuitives. It's a lose/lose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    True which is why I don't fit in anywhere. I wish I could avoid people like that, I'm tired of being constantly judged as a silly weakling because I can't, say, work a well paying job if I don't enjoy doing it. That's pretty much the bulk of what I was referring to. Everyone wants me to eat shit and like it and from my economical, social and whatever position that's the only choice I have so I'd better get used to it.
    Hate to say this, but your mindset is what's bringing you down, methinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    NO, DON'T GIVE IN.

    I feel the same way. People compare others to the same ideal they aspire to. What they don't realize is that the ideal I aspire to is nothing like what aspire to. They have no idea what they're talking about. Maybe being a "silly little weakling" (according to their standards) is right. (It may not be for them, but maybe it is for you). There are some skills and characteristics that are better suited to society but that doesn't mean that they're BETTER because not everybody benefits from conforming to society or believes it's right thing to do.

    Some people just can't think outside of the constraint of "this is the way things are done now" or "this is the way that makes the most sense to ME." Ignore them.
    You demand that T's understand and respect the Feeling-stance...
    ...how much understanding and respect do you have for the Thinking-stance?

    Sometimes options are limited but recognize that there's a difference between the way things ARE and the way things SHOULD be. We all reserve the right to do what is best for ourselves and to want what will make us happy and fulfilled. Try not to be influenced by others and to make whatever decisions you think are in your best interest. Hard, I know.
    Why is it so hard for you F's to do this?
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  10. #90
    Glycerine
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