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  1. #71
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's terrifying to say that first "No," but it's also such a rush. Try it; you'll like it. The world won't end and the ceiling won't cave in on you.

    Also, everybody doesn't need to know how you feel about everything. Is it disassociating from your feelings just not to talk about them or show them to random people? You can feel them just as intensely. And it's not hiding -- it's keeping private. Sometimes it's appropriate to keep your feelings private. (Not to mention better for you in the long run.)
    I'm not really all that concerned about what's "appropriate." And I decide for myself the extent to which I want to display my emotions. It's an individual choice. It goes back to what I was saying about personal wellbeing. You wouldn't want someone to force you to behave according to standards that weren't healthy for you, would you? It's just that different people have vastly different emotional needs and people often assume that other people approach the world with similar needs and wants for psychological health. False. What I need to do to live well and be happy could easily be vastly different from what you need to do.

    Edit: And it seems your last sentence is an example of what I'm objecting to. Someone else thinking that they know what is best for another person! This whole thread is about how people have fundamentally different end goals. And fundamentally different needs. So you can never know what is "best" for another person. Or what makes the most sense. Or what the best methods for them are. Et cetera.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    If this dichotomy is so extreme then what is to be said about those who end up at the same end, but took different paths to get there? I.e. one path dealt with F and the other with T.
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you rephrase, I might answer.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you rephrase, I might answer.
    I don't quite know either... I think we were talking about subjectivity and objectivity and you said something about one object would be ineffective with one person, but work with another. It sparked a thought, which is... If that the difference between using this object on one person is so dramatic with another then how is it that two distinct paths F and T can end up at the same end even if they used this same object to get to it and it was 'ineffective' for one of them..... I'm repeating myself from before. Does this make sense?

    An example is the use of T functions and the use of F functions in order to solve a problem and come up with the same answer. Maybe?

  4. #74
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Hi Vamp - I liked books by SARK and Robyn Posin. A lot of Robyn's stuff is up on her website, and some of SARK's books are available through google reader. Both worth a google search

    People still affect me a lot. Just Friday a coworker/classmate who I will likely doorslam (sorry - what else do I do? There's nothing good in this relationship that I Can't still have after the doorslam). There was something I didn't want to tell her; she dragged it out of me then made this horribly disapproving noises and faces... really judgemental and awful. She didn't follow it up with discussion or explanation, just sheer, strong disapproval for my choices. I just felt so bad, like "why couldn't I tell her in the moment to express herself in words and not cruel gestures?". But maybe it wasn't worth it. Sigh - I don't know. I do know I've done a lot for this person though (gotten then a job, helped them move in, helped them settle in, helped them with various work-related issues but sometimes drawing the line. Ane she just kept pushing me - didn't take no for an answer, kept asking for favor and favor after favor... I am exhausted, and I don't even LIKE this person's personality. Yeah, as I write this out, this is heading to doorslam land. Or rather, mochajava is a doormat land. Who knows?



    Me too... I think prioritizing myself over others would help me with standing up for myself... something I simply don't do. Bad tendency to have!!
    I VOTE DOORSLAM TOO!

  5. #75
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I don't quite know either... I think we were talking about subjectivity and objectivity and you said something about one object would be ineffective with one person, but work with another. It sparked a thought, which is... If that the difference between using this object on one person is so dramatic with another then how is it that two distinct paths F and T can end up at the same end even if they used this same object to get to it and it was 'ineffective' for one of them..... I'm repeating myself from before. Does this make sense?

    An example is the use of T functions and the use of F functions in order to solve a problem and come up with the same answer. Maybe?
    Okay, I think I get the gist of what you're saying.

    I didn't go back in the thread to figure out what exactly I said. But the context of my argument was probably that using a certain set of principles that work well on a person T, who is a thinker, can be ineffective for a person F, who is a feeler. Even whilst they are working toward the same goal. Which makes sense because when I say our "objectives in life," I don't just mean a certain destination. Really our "needs" and "wants" are ongoing processes. The process is part of the end goal. Or as important. Or however you want to phrase it.

    Am I interpreting your question correctly?

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    ...using a certain set of principles that work well on a person T, who is a thinker, can be ineffective for a person F, who is a feeler. Even whilst they are working toward the same goal.
    This. What if this exact same tool, even though it was ineffective, still gets you the same results with the other person in which it was effective. That doesn't make sense because then it technically would have been effective. Nevermind, I killed the thought.

  7. #77
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    I was thinking about what T and F really mean, what is this logic and what are feelings, and what is the importance of having both. Combining what I learned from MBTI and reading some literature on evolutionary psychology and biology I got the following model built up:

    Thinking value system rigs one's brain to favor competition within one's species. It places more value on own self and less value in other individuals. Result is feelings of confidence, boosted self-value, awesomeness, but also perceiving other people have less value, deriving enjoyment from competition be it just sports and verbal sparring (arguments), up to making somebody else cry or even physical confrontation. T-value system also makes one be less interested in people and relationships in general. Not surprisingly most of male population tests as T-types. Some of the T-types however have easier access to feelings (all those whose feeling is their tertiary function).

    Feeling value system rigs one's brain for cooperation within one's species. It places a lot of value on other people and less value one oneself. As a result feelers may lack confidence and experience feelings of low self worth, however they will have increased interest in other people and relationships in general, more acutely aware of worth of others, more sympathetic and desiring to seek win-win situations rather than win-lose competitive situations. Competition is distasteful to F-types. Most of women test as F-types as well as about 20% of men. F-types with tertiary T-function will find it easier to access T-type logic.

    When decision stands to be made, our judgement function can reference either T or F value system. The two value systems, however, are inherently incompatible. When the feeling value system has been crossly violated, this sensation to us is known to us as guilt. When thinker value systems has been violated, this sensation is known to us as lack of respect, disdain. Not surprisingly it also plays into misunderstanding across genders. Unlike the N and S divide, or the I and E divide, this divide does actually correlate to gender and is responsible for the famous "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" saying.

    What happens if you don't process your feelings is that you may either completely reject them and use pure T-type logic in relations to other people. This can harm your relationships as you will start acting selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense. And on the other extreme if you don't take time to process your emotions this may lead you to act in a way that others will simply take advantage of you. You will be cooperating where you should have been competing, so once again it can harm you.

    So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :P Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post

    So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :P Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.
    Once a person has taken the "you're silly for putting so much stock in emotions" position with you, everything you say from that point on is categorized as more senseless emotional babble.

    All of what has been shared in this thread is exactly why I have such a flat affect and present an emotionless face. There's just no point in any of it. Most people hate emotions and most people hate intuitives. It's a lose/lose.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #79
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    it's just a cultural bias...we currently live in a culture that is very work/money oriented - as if that is the entire meaning of life - where as in other cultures they put more emphasis on family, community, taking care of children and their elderly, or hey they just go home for naps in the middle of the day or take two hour lunch breaks so they actually enjoy their lives instead of working themselves to death

    it's a very American mindset to just "keep going" in the name of getting things done or making more money or being a useful fucking tool for XYZ Corporation but I have a very strong sense of identity so I'm capable of fighting it

    I also tend to have relationships with men who are feelers for this reason

  10. #80
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    it's just a cultural bias...we currently live in a culture that is very work/money oriented - as if that is the entire meaning of life - where as in other cultures they put more emphasis on family, community, taking care of children and their elderly, or hey they just go home for naps in the middle of the day or take two hour lunch breaks so they actually enjoy their lives instead of working themselves to death

    it's a very American mindset to just "keep going" in the name of getting things done or making more money or being a useful fucking tool for XYZ Corporation but I have a very strong sense of identity so I'm capable of fighting it

    I also tend to have relationships with men who are feelers for this reason
    True which is why I don't fit in anywhere. I wish I could avoid people like that, I'm tired of being constantly judged as a silly weakling because I can't, say, work a well paying job if I don't enjoy doing it. That's pretty much the bulk of what I was referring to. Everyone wants me to eat shit and like it and from my economical, social and whatever position that's the only choice I have so I'd better get used to it.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

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