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  1. #61
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Hmm... from what I've seen, NT's aren't nearly as likely as NF's to actually "bend" in order to facilitate a relationship... especially when a relationship doesn't mean much to them.

    So IRL I would assume NF's end up "bending" more than NT's do.
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    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    If you can understand The Importance of Being Earnest...

  3. #63
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    If you can understand The Importance of Being Earnest...
    Being adopted?

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Hmm... from what I've seen, NT's aren't nearly as likely as NF's to actually "bend" in order to facilitate a relationship... especially when a relationship doesn't mean much to them.

    So IRL I would assume NF's end up "bending" more than NT's do.
    lol, this is how it works out IRL but I think Shmoooo was talking about in theory.



    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Vamp: I'm glad you're in a different place now. For me, reading people who talked about and validated feelings really helped me hate myself, and my ways of functioning, a lot less. All I ever knew before that was that I wasn't "easygoing" enough, or that I was "too sensitive". Not constructive, particularly from your caretakers on whom you're dependent before age 18 (financial / other independence was the best thing to happen to me ever... I am a rock... I am an island) <=just kidding!
    I can't wait to be independent. I need to learn how to not let people affect me and how to function. Who'd you read about?

    Vamp: I'm with you on this one (except that the pressure was internal... I wonder what kind of familial hell would have broken loose had I pursued my passions like anthropology and women's studies - I would have done statistics!!). How does this play into the thinking vs. feeling, do you think? I'd like to know as I'm processing this one as well.
    I have no idea. But I do know that I did a lot of self correcting. I am more aware of everyone's feelings than my own. I knew that my choice of major would disappoint them, so I changed it. That's what I need to get over, basing my behavior on how others feel while ignoring myself.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  4. #64
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    lol, this is how it works out IRL but I think Shmoooo was talking about in theory.
    I know. I wasn't contradicting Shmoooo. Just making an observation.
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    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  5. #65
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Hi Vamp - I liked books by SARK and Robyn Posin. A lot of Robyn's stuff is up on her website, and some of SARK's books are available through google reader. Both worth a google search

    People still affect me a lot. Just Friday a coworker/classmate who I will likely doorslam (sorry - what else do I do? There's nothing good in this relationship that I Can't still have after the doorslam). There was something I didn't want to tell her; she dragged it out of me then made this horribly disapproving noises and faces... really judgemental and awful. She didn't follow it up with discussion or explanation, just sheer, strong disapproval for my choices. I just felt so bad, like "why couldn't I tell her in the moment to express herself in words and not cruel gestures?". But maybe it wasn't worth it. Sigh - I don't know. I do know I've done a lot for this person though (gotten then a job, helped them move in, helped them settle in, helped them with various work-related issues but sometimes drawing the line. Ane she just kept pushing me - didn't take no for an answer, kept asking for favor and favor after favor... I am exhausted, and I don't even LIKE this person's personality. Yeah, as I write this out, this is heading to doorslam land. Or rather, mochajava is a doormat land. Who knows?

    Vamp: I have no idea. But I do know that I did a lot of self correcting. I am more aware of everyone's feelings than my own. I knew that my choice of major would disappoint them, so I changed it. That's what I need to get over, basing my behavior on how others feel while ignoring myself.
    Me too... I think prioritizing myself over others would help me with standing up for myself... something I simply don't do. Bad tendency to have!!

  6. #66
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It's terrifying to say that first "No," but it's also such a rush. Try it; you'll like it. The world won't end and the ceiling won't cave in on you.

    Also, everybody doesn't need to know how you feel about everything. Is it disassociating from your feelings just not to talk about them or show them to random people? You can feel them just as intensely. And it's not hiding -- it's keeping private. Sometimes it's appropriate to keep your feelings private. (Not to mention better for you in the long run.)

  7. #67
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    @Tiltyred -- I agree. Keeping feelings private is generally very appropriate. The only person who absolutely needs to see them is you (and, as you decide is appropriate, the people whom they will affect).

    Hmm... I say "no" when I need my time... but what about "no" to other things? Do you mean "no" in the context of say, that coworker? Or was that not directed to me ?

  8. #68
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's terrifying to say that first "No," but it's also such a rush. Try it; you'll like it. The world won't end and the ceiling won't cave in on you.

    Also, everybody doesn't need to know how you feel about everything. Is it disassociating from your feelings just not to talk about them or show them to random people? You can feel them just as intensely. And it's not hiding -- it's keeping private. Sometimes it's appropriate to keep your feelings private. (Not to mention better for you in the long run.)

    No. That's not disassociation. I keep everything inside. Unless asked by family. I'm not too much bothered by classmates/coworkers because I don't interact with them much beyond small talk.

    Just because we're against disassociation and are having trouble with how people interpret our feelings does not mean we're bleeding hearts that wear it on our sleeves. :P It means, in this thread at least for me, that I repress everything because I've been told to. The idea that people with these problems constantly tell others their feelings and wear their hearts on their sleeves is a negative assumption of what it means to be emotional/sensitive and is part of the problem.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #69
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    The electrician needs to think about making his client happy right? (whoever is in charge of the office). He needs his next job.
    He probably satisfies his boss/client by using his technical skills to do a good job, "good" by objective criteria like it works, satisfies building codes, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Also, what about the considerations like if people are around who are in wheelchairs and need the lights to be at certain levels? Safety lighting?
    Specifications for the heights of lights, switches, etc. are objective criteria based upon the needs of the client. The requirement for safety lighting may be based upon some objective criteria (building code, necessary illumination level) or on the subjective criteria of the client (makes him feel safe). In any case, once it is on the job sheet for the electrician, it becomes an objective task that can be objectively evaluated.
    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    I'm not saying that the electrician doesn't need to have their technical skills down, but just saying that the feeling part can be useful for them (presumably they are running a business, not installing light switches in a vacuum - tee hee).
    Yes, both feeling and thinking parts are useful for everyone, and at least to some degree, used by everyone. But certain tasks, circumstances, professions, etc. clearly rely much more on one or the other perspective. Liesl was onto something when she wrote that these different perspectives are equally valid because the people who hold them have different goals. Yes, applied to matching goals, they are equally valid. As a thinking type, I do not necessarily consider thinking/objective criteria to be always more important than feeling/subjective ones. I consider them more appropriate to certain tasks, and devote myself to such tasks where I can be most useful and satisfied.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Could you give an example of a time when you were belittled for giving so much importance to your psychology, your identity, and your emotions?
    Hmm, in my own assessment, a specific example is not as illustrative here as the general principles I've outlined because this isn't a "specific" phenomenon. It's widespread. It exists in the implications of relationships. It occurs virtually everywhere and can involve virtually anyone. I want to illustrate the sort of omnipresence of the problem. Like any form of discrimination, it's in the background of every interaction, although sometimes it's more hidden than at other times.

    S/N bias, anyone? lol!

    But for the most part, I just don't want to share a specific example because that would be too personal for me! But others who wish to share or who feel they can illustrate it with specific examples are, of course, welcome to.

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