User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 105

  1. #51
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    If this dichotomy is so extreme then what is to be said about those who end up at the same end, but took different paths to get there? I.e. one path dealt with F and the other with T.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    There are a lot of people out there that don't believe it's important to deal with their emotional states. I know I prioritize dealing with my emotions (not just because it's a statement of what I think is important, but also because it's necessary for my wellbeing) and want others to see that as an equally legitimate way of managing life. But I get belittled a lot for giving so much importance to my psychology, my identity, and my emotions. Have you NFs had similar experiences with this? And how do you deal with this?
    I have read most of this thread; I may have missed something.

    I am trying to imagine the circumstances where this comes up. Is this about work, mostly?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    206

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I have read most of this thread; I may have missed something.

    I am trying to imagine the circumstances where this comes up. Is this about work, mostly?
    Hmm, I'm not sure that there's a particular setting for this.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    There's one problem here.
    Dissociating oneself from feelings and denying them are two completely different things!
    To dissociate is to separate, to deny is to refuse to acknowledge something.
    I don't know exactly what people are telling you but typically when a person tells someone else to dissociate from his or her feelings- it is moreso a "plea" to a person to look at things more objectively. This doesn't require neglecting feelings.

    In fact, the majority of people who can legitimately consider themselves happy with their lives don't deny their feelings at all. They use their feelings to help determine what they want out of life and their reason to
    a.) Decide if the things they want or reasonable to want.
    b.) Figure out how to get the things they want.

    This might be my Fe talking but it's typically distressful to most organizations and most people to have a person who is always being emotional and unreasonable. I sympathize with those who tell such a person to dissociate from his or her emotions. It's selfish to let feelings control a person's life completely without anything else! It's primitive. It doesn't have anything to do with Thinking/Feeling, it's more so who is mature and who isn't mature.

    There are plenty of Feeling types who can do this and I know of many NF/SF types who are able to do this quite well without having to deny the existence of their strong feelings about things.
    No human being unless that human being is actually a Vulcan or John Galt should deny his or her feelings.
    Most of the time, outside of the internet, being told to "be more objective" is basically being told to shut up. That might not be true but that's my experience. Totally invalidating but whatever, that's what happens when you "feel". It's not rational and it's not proper so empty them out.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    Could you give an example of a time when you were belittled for giving so much importance to your psychology, your identity, and your emotions?

    It has only happened to me at work, and it happened through ridicule, which is an extremely effective way to shut me down, so it shut me down good. Which actually has been an improvement, so it actually turned out to be doing me a favor.

    I have continual reminders at work that emotionality is frowned upon. Not just mine, but for example, someone in personnel referred to a person who is somewhat in my keeping as being very emotional. I don't see her that way at all. I think she was very emotional for a certain reason, and that her level of emotionality was appropriate for the situation. And the comment came from someone who I viewed as sympathetic, so it took me even more by surprise.

    I think emotionality makes people uncomfortable because it is unpredictable to them.

    I also do think it's possible to impose on other people with excess emotionality. I'm just sometimes surprised at how low the threshold is.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    You're right -- this bias absolutely exists. I find this in the male, engineer-dominated environments I've mostly spent my time in. And it is draining! Facts and logic are not 100% of who I am, and I will not deny the rest. (FTR: I'm not saying ANYTHING against males or engineers, or even making generalizations about them -- just saying those logic is the one and only MO in the pieces of those environments that I've experienced).

    Other biases against? Humanities. Social sciences. Females. Anything feminine. Anything "squishy". Anything emotional. Anything you can't freaking write an equation for!

    Sorry -- I didn't realize I would start ranting in this text box, Leisl. But I just wanted to say that you're not alone at all. This thing you're picking up is abundantly real, and I think you just have to stand up for this way in which you function that happens to be different than that environment. There are some societies, however, taht are the opposite. Have you read/seen ethnographies?
    YES! To feel is to be feminine is to be weak and inefficient. The world is all about eating shit and liking it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Ooh. Strikes a chord. I'm the same way, but I think that's because of a past history of abuse / hostile family environment where there was no room for me to have feelings. You?
    Same. That social system has translated into most of my 22 years alive being depressive years full of crippling depression. All because of a lack of emotional support, validation of emotions and the allowance of emotions. I basically have to try and become a non-thinking machine and shut it all off. Which would be fine because I totally don't understand feelings or feel one way or the other about life.

    This is what bothers me about that "be more objective and disassociate your feelings bullshit"; feelings are part of the picture, too and for a few of us always will be. Denying us our emotions may make things run more smoothly for the majority but it's at our expense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Put on a Poker face.. smile a lot, tell jokes.Don't let them see you worry. Act like you haven't a care in the world.
    Go home and cry yourself to sleep , again.
    Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

    Sometimes I write a poem

    That's how I deal with my feelings.

    Additional steps: Have lots of dirty sex and comfort yourself with money and/or material things. Also, thrillseeking.
    That's the brightest hope I have for the future.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I have read most of this thread; I may have missed something.

    I am trying to imagine the circumstances where this comes up. Is this about work, mostly?
    Have you ever met someone who ignores any and every concern you have?
    In my case, it's mostly people rationalizing and invalidating the way I see things (from social issues to mundane things) by belittling the way I think. "that's so silly and you're silly for feeling that way." Basically, invalidation of your feelings.

    Any time I make a decision based on how I feel I'm always hit with that "that's stupid. feelings aren't important. just do it" bomb. I can't lay out specifics but it's a feeling of being told that you're silly/weak all the time for having emotions that put your on one side or another or that every thing you do and say is silly/weak because you are a feeler.

    To some extent, being told to major in certain fields because it makes more money or being told to grit your teeth and bear something you don't like because it's more socially acceptable is an example of this.

    Telling someone who values their feelings that their feelings don't matter does a lot of damage.

    And example of the majors thing is that I wanted to do English but was pressured by family into doing something with more money in it.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  8. #58
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Liesl:
    Well, let's look at a different dichotomy for a second. Take the sensing and intuition dichotomy. I worked with someone who was investigating this and essentially the difference is caused by different neural circuitry in the frontal lobe. Sensors process information in series that intuitives would process in parallel. I'm not going to go farther into it unless someone wants me to. But this is why sensors and intuitives fundamentally disagree on what they see as "relevant" or "real."
    I'm asking you to go more into it, either on the thread or otherwise, and to send some links! This is fascinating.

    Liesl:
    It's not convenient within the structure of the world as it is now, but that's because of the bias against it. I would never part with my feeling. It's "real" to me. It's the "best" way of evaluating situations to me. It serves my ends quite faithfully.
    Haha, you're right. At one point, I thought and thought about what big decisions I was happy with (my graduate school, my marriage, my boarding high school) and which decisions I was unhappy with (my college, my major), and I realized... the decisions I was unhappy with were the decisions I'd made based on thinking, and the ones I was happy with I'd made based on (my lingo at the time) "no valid reason really". I.e., it was what felt right.

    And it can be dramatic. Some close friends were advising me against the marriage (6 years in - amazing). My family / husband were advising me against the choice of graduate school... and still, these are the decisions I don't regret. The family and I are no longer on speaking terms, and the husband is a-ok with the graduate school (heh, they gave me full funding, so this benefits him too!)

    Again - this all has to be filtered not just through the "F" in my personality type, but also my life experiences and perhaps owning these decisions, rather than having them made by someone else, and the empowerment that came with that was what made them work.

    ReflecttcelfeR
    If this dichotomy is so extreme then what is to be said about those who end up at the same end, but took different paths to get there? I.e. one path dealt with F and the other with T.
    Can you elaborate for me, please? This is an interesting point, but I'm not getting it -- an example, maybe?

    Vamp:
    Same. That social system has translated into most of my 22 years alive being depressive years full of crippling depression. All because of a lack of emotional support, validation of emotions and the allowance of emotions. I basically have to try and become a non-thinking machine and shut it all off. Which would be fine because I totally don't understand feelings or feel one way or the other about life.

    This is what bothers me about that "be more objective and disassociate your feelings bullshit"; feelings are part of the picture, too and for a few of us always will be. Denying us our emotions may make things run more smoothly for the majority but it's at our expense.
    I'm glad you're in a different place now. For me, reading people who talked about and validated feelings really helped me hate myself, and my ways of functioning, a lot less. All I ever knew before that was that I wasn't "easygoing" enough, or that I was "too sensitive". Not constructive, particularly from your caretakers on whom you're dependent before age 18 (financial / other independence was the best thing to happen to me ever... I am a rock... I am an island) <=just kidding!

    Vamp:
    And example of the majors thing is that I wanted to do English but was pressured by family into doing something with more money in it.
    I'm with you on this one (except that the pressure was internal... I wonder what kind of familial hell would have broken loose had I pursued my passions like anthropology and women's studies - I would have done statistics!!). How does this play into the thinking vs. feeling, do you think? I'd like to know as I'm processing this one as well.
    Last edited by mochajava; 08-07-2010 at 03:25 PM. Reason: I misspelled someone's name.

  9. #59
    Glycerine
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    I'd love to dissociate from my emotions while, say, I'm taking an exam. But my emotions are like the most spoiled demanding children and throw tantrums until I pay attention! What can I say? Some of us are just wired like that. My ISTJ husband doesn't have the same sense of urgency when it comes to feelings, so can shelve them and deal with it when it's more convenient for him.

    It might not be type -- I think, to some extent, I'm always holding back a ton of feelings (due to past abuse) so it's like a dam holding water in place... it's a crucial, extraordinarily strong structure. And it's sort of full from the past, so when day-to-day things come up, I need to deal with them (there are MANY full journals in my life, some blogs, long letters to friends, reading novels).

    It's not convenient. I might change it if I were hypothetically given the option. I believe it will hinder success (or help it, depending on what I do).

    I want to be more :workout: and less , but it's not always what I want with the emotions. I can't really have an agenda. I sort of have to allow them. Does that make sense?
    I can totally relate. Emotion disassociation is sometimes crucial for some sort of structure and sanity (IMO).

  10. #60
    Member Shmooooooooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    37

    Default

    Just to add a quick point, I think mutual understanding and communication is definitely important when NF and NT comes into contact.

    These two temperaments have a fundamentally different way of viewing the world, and it is important that that fact is communicated openly. I have found that simply talking explicitly about such ideas as the need for emotional reinforcement, the acceptance of values and the adherence to the values of others among other things is a great help.

    Of course I speak from a strictly Ti "vs" Fi point of view (an INFP and an INTP coming to terms with their differences), and Fe might have different needs (like the need to adhere to external social principles which was never a problem in my household, since my INFP mother is generally people-shy herself and despises big social events much as I do).

    As an unrelated concluding point, I'd like to add that, while seemingly unfair, I think that in any NT - NF compromise the NT will generally have to bend more than the NF for the simple fact that the NT is usually less personally affected by such "bending". While a Fi-dom or a Fe-dom can be deeply personally upset by having to betray their values or having their emotions ignored, a thinker will most likely be able to shrug off a few unnecessary duties and various F-oriented lip service as an inconvenience and nothing more. I think it's an important part of maturing to recognize that this asymmetry exists, and that it's silly to expect tit-for-tat compromises when such fundamentally different systems, both in terms of outlook and potential for suffering, are in conflict. But that could be just the silly subjective Fi of my mother's that's rubbed off on me. That's not to say, of course, that the NT should serve and bend to the NF in every aspect. NF can be very unreasonable at times, and the NT should stand his own if it comes to something that would deeply affect or entangle him - after all he has a life to live as well.

Similar Threads

  1. The importance of math, statistics and facts in life
    By Virtual ghost in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-05-2009, 10:18 PM
  2. The importance of feelings?
    By Virtual ghost in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 10-28-2008, 05:51 PM
  3. The Importance of Art
    By placebo in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 09-30-2008, 09:42 PM
  4. The importance of the temperaments in MBTT
    By Ezra in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-06-2008, 12:38 PM
  5. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-25-2007, 01:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO