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  1. #41
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Ok, I think I understand now. I guess I wasn't getting the fact that "choosing to not dissociate from emotions" was a way of life. I'll admit that I might have approached this from a somewhat narrow-minded perspective.
    And I also want you to know that not only is choosing not to dissociate from emotions a way of life, it may be crucial to that person's psychological wellbeing to NOT dissociate from their emotions in certain circumstances. For some reason this seems 'unfathomable' to people who do not experience life in this way.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    I...do rather crazy shit in opposition to my feelings.

    I hate being disappointed so I hate to have expectations but my mind just wanders off on Fi/Ne tangents and comes up with these idealistic, perfect expectations.

    When I am overwhelmed by negative feelings, I tend to lash out in some way and forget about my more vulnerable feelings.

    I struggle with this a lot. When you say the importance of feelings, you mean all feelings? It's very hard for me to give sway to all my feelings. I have to sort of organize them like a coin collection.

  3. #43
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    When I say "objectivity" I meant using impersonal criteria to assess a situation.
    When I say "subjectivity" I meant using personal criteria to assess a situation.
    I mean it strictly in terms of the thinking/feeling dichotomy of MBTI.

    In my struggles to understand the many NTs that have been in my life, I have come to the conclusion that using "objective" criteria seems more "real" to them. On the flip side of the coin, I want NTs to know that using "subjective" criteria seems more "real" to myself and other NFs.

    The bias I'm trying to get at exists within groups of thinkers and within groups of feelers too. Although 'thinking types' may be more likely to use the same criteria to come to judgments, they often use different criteria from each other. And same with 'feeling types.' I'm talking about the different ways we use to assess situations, particularly when they involve ourselves. Only we can know which method is truly beneficial for ourselves or "valid" to ourselves. And two people in the same situation may benefit from different methods of 'judging'.
    Hmmmmm... then I wonder: What makes subjectivity seem more real to you?

  4. #44
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I talked with someone about this today. Subjectivity doesn't change the object, it changes how we view the object. This being said, that means that if you see a certain something and you consider that too be the wrong something it doesn't make it the wrong one, it means your subjectivity is getting in the way. I think this is what Coriolis may be getting towards.

    I grasp the fact that using emotions when making a decisions is a useful approach. Sometimes this is the only way to get through to someone, but as every other thinker would agree it's not our first approach.
    Yes, this is part of it. I still do not agree that every problem or situation can be addressed equally well by subjective or objective means. I find it hard to imagine how subjective criteria would, say, help an electrician add light switches to my office. Though I am an inveterate thinker, I find it equally hard to imagine a support group operating primarily on objective criteria. My thinking (or feeling) that something is the right tool for the job does not make it so, nor does it make me wrong if I resort to doing my best with an "inferior" tool if that is all I have.

    Taking individual differences into account, this is why certain people won't enjoy being electricians, while others won't enjoy being counselors. The fact that we gravitate toward what we are predisposed to and good at does not render us unable to fill other roles as needed, nor does it nullify the real distinctions among the many forms of human creativity and contribution.

  5. #45
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    . I worked in a hospital kitchen (and yes- the food was awful.. we employees got higher-quality cafeteria food instead) for a while- it was in a sense like "assembly line" work. Your emotions didn't matter at the kitchen. You just had to get your work done. There are many jobs which are like that. Efficiency is the most important thing and nothing else. Not every organization is about expressing your individuality.
    Sure - every job isn't about expressing your individuality, but the functioning of that kitchen is absolutely about emotions. Everyone brings in their good days and bad, and by connecting to each other, you can make that an incredible or horrible work environment. More emotions: who gets promoted, who doesn't, how you take that. Who gets which jobs? Who gets the perks? Who doesn't? Is someone taking on too much? Too little? What kind of management structure is there? How do you get paid/raises? How do you keep the employees around (give them better food)? See - there are tons of emotions in this situation.

  6. #46
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, this is part of it. I still do not agree that every problem or situation can be addressed equally well by subjective or objective means. I find it hard to imagine how subjective criteria would, say, help an electrician add light switches to my office. Though I am an inveterate thinker, I find it equally hard to imagine a support group operating primarily on objective criteria. My thinking (or feeling) that something is the right tool for the job does not make it so, nor does it make me wrong if I resort to doing my best with an "inferior" tool if that is all I have.

    Taking individual differences into account, this is why certain people won't enjoy being electricians, while others won't enjoy being counselors. The fact that we gravitate toward what we are predisposed to and good at does not render us unable to fill other roles as needed, nor does it nullify the real distinctions among the many forms of human creativity and contribution.
    The electrician needs to think about making his client happy right? (whoever is in charge of the office). He needs his next job. Also, what about the considerations like if people are around who are in wheelchairs and need the lights to be at certain levels? Safety lighting? I'm not saying that the electrician doesn't need to have their technical skills down, but just saying that the feeling part can be useful for them (presumably they are running a business, not installing light switches in a vacuum - tee hee).

  7. #47
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    And I also want you to know that not only is choosing not to dissociate from emotions a way of life, it may be crucial to that person's psychological wellbeing to NOT dissociate from their emotions in certain circumstances. For some reason this seems 'unfathomable' to people who do not experience life in this way.
    I'd love to dissociate from my emotions while, say, I'm taking an exam. But my emotions are like the most spoiled demanding children and throw tantrums until I pay attention! What can I say? Some of us are just wired like that. My ISTJ husband doesn't have the same sense of urgency when it comes to feelings, so can shelve them and deal with it when it's more convenient for him.

    It might not be type -- I think, to some extent, I'm always holding back a ton of feelings (due to past abuse) so it's like a dam holding water in place... it's a crucial, extraordinarily strong structure. And it's sort of full from the past, so when day-to-day things come up, I need to deal with them (there are MANY full journals in my life, some blogs, long letters to friends, reading novels).

    It's not convenient. I might change it if I were hypothetically given the option. I believe it will hinder success (or help it, depending on what I do).

    I want to be more :workout: and less , but it's not always what I want with the emotions. I can't really have an agenda. I sort of have to allow them. Does that make sense?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Hmmmmm... then I wonder: What makes subjectivity seem more real to you?
    Well, let's look at a different dichotomy for a second. Take the sensing and intuition dichotomy. I worked with someone who was investigating this and essentially the difference is caused by different neural circuitry in the frontal lobe. Sensors process information in series that intuitives would process in parallel. I'm not going to go farther into it unless someone wants me to. But this is why sensors and intuitives fundamentally disagree on what they see as "relevant" or "real."

    We're neurologically informed of only a certain portion of reality and/or are predisposed toward processing that information in a certain way. Everyone is biased toward answering the question "what is legitimate" by answering the question "what is legitimate to ME" or "what am I neurophysiologically predisposed or even LIMITED to concluding"? Until you realize that what is "real" or "correct" to you is not "real" or "correct" to everyone because your experience of the world is intrinsically biased, you won't be able to understand what I'm saying.

    Feeling is not looking at the world and seeing it differently than it is. It's looking at the world and prioritizing different criteria than thinking. It's the connotations of the words "thinking" and "feeling" that have created this huge storm of misunderstanding. Really, the words should be "impersonal" and "personal." Thinkers decide subjectively on what impersonal (or 'objective') criteria they are going to employ in a situation. The only reason why you believe that thinking is a more "valid" or "real" way of approaching any given situation is because you're predisposed to perceiving that those criteria lead you closer to the "reality."

    All criteria, whether they fall under the thinking dichotomy or the feeling dichotomy are equally valid. So, asking me what makes "subjectivity" real to me is exactly equivalent to asking you what makes objectivity real to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, this is part of it. I still do not agree that every problem or situation can be addressed equally well by subjective or objective means. I find it hard to imagine how subjective criteria would, say, help an electrician add light switches to my office. Though I am an inveterate thinker, I find it equally hard to imagine a support group operating primarily on objective criteria. My thinking (or feeling) that something is the right tool for the job does not make it so, nor does it make me wrong if I resort to doing my best with an "inferior" tool if that is all I have.

    Taking individual differences into account, this is why certain people won't enjoy being electricians, while others won't enjoy being counselors. The fact that we gravitate toward what we are predisposed to and good at does not render us unable to fill other roles as needed, nor does it nullify the real distinctions among the many forms of human creativity and contribution.
    Ok, you're arguing something entirely different from what I was talking about. I'm essentially saying that two different people can be in the same situation and see what is "real" differently and both are equally valid because it's really neurobiological differences that inform our reality. Specifically in terms of the thinking/feeling dichotomy, everyone is predisposed to thinking that a certain range of criteria are more valid or make "more sense" than others. And I also believe that because we all have fundamentally different tasks and motivations in the world, we have a tendency to see what is relevant to our task. All of these judgments are valid because we're each programmed to think in a way that is most adapted to our survival and fulfillment of our tasks (which is crucial to our wellbeing).

    You get it? So, obviously if you give a carpenter a hug and some personal advice, that's not going to help him accomplish his task of building some object. No one said that it would. The point is that we all have different psychological occupations, so to speak. Two people can use two different sets of criteria in the same situation and both be equally effective in furthering their end goals. Because their end goals are ultimately different. Which is why what they view as "relevant" is different. Which is why their realities are informed differently.

    Ultimately, what I'm saying is that "what is real," "what is important," and "what is relevant" are all subjective questions for thinkers and feelers alike. Reality is subjective because it's determined differently by each person.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    I...do rather crazy shit in opposition to my feelings.

    I hate being disappointed so I hate to have expectations but my mind just wanders off on Fi/Ne tangents and comes up with these idealistic, perfect expectations.

    When I am overwhelmed by negative feelings, I tend to lash out in some way and forget about my more vulnerable feelings.

    I struggle with this a lot. When you say the importance of feelings, you mean all feelings? It's very hard for me to give sway to all my feelings. I have to sort of organize them like a coin collection.
    I mean the importance of "feeling" as a process of evaluating situations and in parallel to "thinking" as another process of evaluating situations. Not necessarily any individual feeling.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    I'd love to dissociate from my emotions while, say, I'm taking an exam. But my emotions are like the most spoiled demanding children and throw tantrums until I pay attention! What can I say? Some of us are just wired like that. My ISTJ husband doesn't have the same sense of urgency when it comes to feelings, so can shelve them and deal with it when it's more convenient for him.

    It might not be type -- I think, to some extent, I'm always holding back a ton of feelings (due to past abuse) so it's like a dam holding water in place... it's a crucial, extraordinarily strong structure. And it's sort of full from the past, so when day-to-day things come up, I need to deal with them (there are MANY full journals in my life, some blogs, long letters to friends, reading novels).

    It's not convenient. I might change it if I were hypothetically given the option. I believe it will hinder success (or help it, depending on what I do).

    I want to be more :workout: and less , but it's not always what I want with the emotions. I can't really have an agenda. I sort of have to allow them. Does that make sense?
    YES. It does make sense. And giving importance to your feelings isn't any less of a valid or legitimate way of organizing your life than giving importance to your thoughts. It's no less informative of reality than thinking. It's simply giving importance to things based on different criteria.

    It's not convenient within the structure of the world as it is now, but that's because of the bias against it. I would never part with my feeling. It's "real" to me. It's the "best" way of evaluating situations to me. It serves my ends quite faithfully.

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