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  1. #31
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    The bias works both ways. I work in a largely male, scientific environment like Mochajava described, and for me, it is paradise. I can be myself entirely -- no pretenses, no holding back. I can give everything I have and it is appreciated. Then I step outside, anywhere else really, and it is not good enough. I have to play the mind-games of wondering what people REALLY mean by what they say. I'm expected to emote when I have no wish to and nothing to express. I'm surrounded by a cacophany of other people's feelings that all seem like so many slippery eels. There is nothing I can grab onto. I'm expected to engage in social rituals beyond common courtesy, whose only purpose seems to be making others feel comfortable. I will do this for those close to me and whom I care about, but it gets draining quickly.

    All of this is simply a criticism of the external environment, and not of the necessity of coming to terms with one's own internal emotion-scape. As Mondo mentioned, however, detachment from emotions is a legitimate technique for doing this, and in no way equates to denial. In fact, the ability to detach may reduce the negative physical manifestations of emotions. I have been pondering one concern, though. Are there cases where detached consideration is not effective or appropriate? Can one become overreliant on this method, and if so, what is the detriment? Are there better ways to deal with emotions, particularly negative ones?

    I cannot say I have ever considered emotions inherently irrational or stupid, but I have lately been considering some of the same questions both Shmoooooo and Halla discussed in their posts. I would be interested in learning what I can about the importance of feeling from those more adept in this area.

  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.
    If you substitute "values" for "feelings" in the above, I would agree wholeheartedly. Values tell us what we want and why; logic/rationality/objectivity help us get there. Values are inputs, while rationality is a process. If the process has no guiding purpose, one is as a rudderless ship. For me, however, the development and lifelong refinement of values can also be a logical process, involving self-consistency and maintenance of a firm foundation.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The bias works both ways. I work in a largely male, scientific environment like Mochajava described, and for me, it is paradise. I can be myself entirely -- no pretenses, no holding back. I can give everything I have and it is appreciated. Then I step outside, anywhere else really, and it is not good enough. I have to play the mind-games of wondering what people REALLY mean by what they say. I'm expected to emote when I have no wish to and nothing to express. I'm surrounded by a cacophany of other people's feelings that all seem like so many slippery eels. There is nothing I can grab onto. I'm expected to engage in social rituals beyond common courtesy, whose only purpose seems to be making others feel comfortable. I will do this for those close to me and whom I care about, but it gets draining quickly.

    All of this is simply a criticism of the external environment, and not of the necessity of coming to terms with one's own internal emotion-scape. As Mondo mentioned, however, detachment from emotions is a legitimate technique for doing this, and in no way equates to denial. In fact, the ability to detach may reduce the negative physical manifestations of emotions. I have been pondering one concern, though. Are there cases where detached consideration is not effective or appropriate? Can one become overreliant on this method, and if so, what is the detriment? Are there better ways to deal with emotions, particularly negative ones?

    I cannot say I have ever considered emotions inherently irrational or stupid, but I have lately been considering some of the same questions both Shmoooooo and Halla discussed in their posts. I would be interested in learning what I can about the importance of feeling from those more adept in this area.
    YES. In my estimation, there are a lot of areas where "detached consideration" is not the most appropriate method for the user and the people who are surrounding the user of said "detached consideration." And not only that, though it may be a legitimate technique in person X's estimation, it may not be a legitimate technique for person Y. The determination of what is "valid" is INHERENTLY subjective.

    We are all biologically predisposed to value certain ways of functioning, and those predispositions are sometimes indicative of what is best for us, what allows us to be happy and well in the world.

    And thank you for your interest in understanding the importance of feeling, Coriolis.

    Oh, and the point about the bias working both ways is absolutely correct. For example, at weddings, their are three billion rules of etiquette that (in my judgment) are all total BS. But a person who chooses to forgo a wedding or getting married entirely or whatever may be subject to scrutiny. Also an example of thinking/feeling discrimination. Another example: who is to say that a thinker's method of navigating romantic relationships is any less valid than a feeler's?

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    Everybody measures situations based on different criteria. Each are equally valid because everybody is biased toward valuing a certain set of criteria. And the truth is that there's no such thing as "objectivity" because it's just weighing different and impersonal but equally biased criteria.
    I disagree. One should use the right tool for the job. Some situations require objective criteria and thinking, like repairing machinery, performing surgery, or auditing business accounts. Others require a subjective approach, like grief counseling, or much artistic design. Many, however, require both. All approaches are not equally valid and effective in all circumstances, and the wrong one can be downright disastrous.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree. One should use the right tool for the job. Some situations require objective criteria and thinking, like repairing machinery, performing surgery, or auditing business accounts. Others require a subjective approach, like grief counseling, or much artistic design. Many, however, require both. All approaches are not equally valid and effective in all circumstances, and the wrong one can be downright disastrous.
    What I'm saying is that what you think is the right tool for the job may not be what I think is the right tool for the job. If you used what you thought was the "right tool" for the job in a situation, I might end up experiencing disaster because you didn't consider that I function differently than you.

    Two different people can enter the exact same situations and using the same method on both could be disastrous for one and extremely effective for the other. It's not only the circumstance that determines the validity of a method but also the PERSON. I'm not saying that all approaches are equally valid in every circumstance. I'm saying that any approach could potentially be the most valid in any circumstance.

  6. #36
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    You missed the entire point of what I was saying! I'm saying that there is no more value in assessing a situation "objectively" as there is assessing a situation "subjectively." Impersonal judgments weigh impersonal criteria more than personal criteria. Personal judgments weigh more personal criteria than impersonal criteria. It's the same formula except with different weights. "Objective judgments" are no more valid than "subjective" judgments. Do you understand what I'm saying?

    Everybody measures situations based on different criteria. Each are equally valid because everybody is biased toward valuing a certain set of criteria. And the truth is that there's no such thing as "objectivity" because it's just weighing different and impersonal but equally biased criteria.

    So for example, let's take a person who assesses a situation differently than you do. You may not think that their assessment is "objective." Who cares? Ultimately your judgment is no more valid than theirs. You are considering different factors that are more important to YOU or make more sense to YOU. But the other person has different factors that are more important to THEM and make more sense to THEM.

    An objective judgment considers factors X and Y. A subjective judgment considers factors A and B. Who is to say that X and Y are more valid factors than A and B? Or what the "correct" or "more valid" way of judging is?

    What I'm saying has nothing to do with expressing individuality. It has everything to do with everyone's basic right to be treated equally within a system. No one should be forced to function according to another person's whims because that person's way of life is the best according to that person. Obviously it's equally important for everybody to be able to pursue their own wellbeing, but a person should be able to live their life without trying to "please" another person or have to conform to someone else's standards of what is right or wrong. Why? SEE ABOVE. Everyone and his cousin thinks that their orientation to the world is the "best" or "smartest" or "most valuable" or "most objective."
    Ok, I think I understand now. I guess I wasn't getting the fact that "choosing to not dissociate from emotions" was a way of life. I'll admit that I might have approached this from a somewhat narrow-minded perspective.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Ok, I think I understand now. I guess I wasn't getting the fact that "choosing to not dissociate from emotions" was a way of life. I'll admit that I might have approached this from a somewhat narrow-minded perspective.
    Thank you.

  8. #38
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    I talked with someone about this today. Subjectivity doesn't change the object, it changes how we view the object. This being said, that means that if you see a certain something and you consider that too be the wrong something it doesn't make it the wrong one, it means your subjectivity is getting in the way. I think this is what Coriolis may be getting towards.

    I grasp the fact that using emotions when making a decisions is a useful approach. Sometimes this is the only way to get through to someone, but as every other thinker would agree it's not our first approach.

  9. #39
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    Thank you.
    You're welcome.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I talked with someone about this today. Subjectivity doesn't change the object, it changes how we view the object. This being said, that means that if you see a certain something and you consider that too be the something it doesn't make it the wrong one, it means your subjectivity is getting in the way. I think this is what Coriolis may be getting towards.
    When I say "objectivity" I meant using impersonal criteria to assess a situation.
    When I say "subjectivity" I meant using personal criteria to assess a situation.
    I mean it strictly in terms of the thinking/feeling dichotomy of MBTI.

    In my struggles to understand the many NTs that have been in my life, I have come to the conclusion that using "objective" criteria seems more "real" to them. On the flip side of the coin, I want NTs to know that using "subjective" criteria seems more "real" to myself and other NFs.

    The bias I'm trying to get at exists within groups of thinkers and within groups of feelers too. Although 'thinking types' may be more likely to use the same criteria to come to judgments, they often use different criteria from each other. And same with 'feeling types.' I'm talking about the different ways we use to assess situations, particularly when they involve ourselves. Only we can know which method is truly beneficial for ourselves or "valid" to ourselves. And two people in the same situation may benefit from different methods of 'judging'.

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