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  1. #21
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Here's a perspective from an ESTP, 7w8.

    I've always been an aloof, objective, tactical, problem-solver.
    Somehow my purpose in life is to figure out how to make things happen.
    Emotions are not a primary skill set for such a life, and I really didn't have to deal with them until about two years ago, at the tender age of 34.

    Why did I have to develop my tertiary function, Fe? Because I was in a really difficult part of my life, and I was unable to make decisions as to how to resolve things, and move on.

    I'm going to say that again.

    Me, an ESTP, was unable to make DECISIONS.

    Why?

    Well, as it turns out, not all decisions can be solved in a spreadsheet, or with on the fly analytical problem solving skills. There are some MAJOR decisions in life, and of course many EVERYDAY decisions too that require each of us to decide how we FEEL about something.

    Well, how about that? If you don't have a well developed set of feelings, you can be stopped in your tracks. I would have NEVER guessed that a possibility if it had not happened to me first hand. I actually went into a major depression over this, as I have never been unable to make things happen, or been unable to decide my destiny in real time. That really screwed my head up.

    So. What did I do?

    I layed by the pool and thought. And thought. And thought some more. And that didn't help. Then I layed by the pool some more and tried to FEEL. I asked myself some silly questions: (1) How do I feel right now? (2) Why do I feel this way? (3) What does it mean? (4) What am I going to do about it?

    After about a month of asking myself these things several times per day, my feelings began to come alive. It was freaking WEIRD. But it got me through my issues. It let me solve my problems. It allowed me to find a way through things, and ultimately I got better very quickly.

    Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.

    So, I'd like to take a moment to thank you wonderful Idyllics for using your feelings, and for showing the rest of us how to do it well. Please be patient with the Thinkers in your lives. We are not heartless assholes. We are trying to make ourselves useful by offering fool proof solutions to things that are valid under all circumstances. Us being "aloof" just means we are trying to be unbiased. We really do care. Our feelings can be hurt, and when they are it's pretty deep, but we tend to get over it quickly. We are not beyond hope. It just takes the right circumstances in our lives to compel us to develop something we are not naturally good at.

    Peace to you all,

    -Halla
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  2. #22
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    You're right -- this bias absolutely exists. I find this in the male, engineer-dominated environments I've mostly spent my time in. And it is draining! Facts and logic are not 100% of who I am, and I will not deny the rest. (FTR: I'm not saying ANYTHING against males or engineers, or even making generalizations about them -- just saying those logic is the one and only MO in the pieces of those environments that I've experienced).

    Other biases against? Humanities. Social sciences. Females. Anything feminine. Anything "squishy". Anything emotional. Anything you can't freaking write an equation for!

    Sorry -- I didn't realize I would start ranting in this text box, Leisl. But I just wanted to say that you're not alone at all. This thing you're picking up is abundantly real, and I think you just have to stand up for this way in which you function that happens to be different than that environment. There are some societies, however, taht are the opposite. Have you read/seen ethnographies?
    I like your ranting! You hit the nail on the head when you said you weren't 100% facts and logic. Everyone should be able to function in a way that they find valid and is conducive to their wellbeing. Why would we all conform to someone else's way of living because they decided their way of thinking was more "legitimate"? We're all pre-programmed to function in different ways, which means everyone is inherently biased as to what they think is legitimate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Put on a Poker face.. smile a lot, tell jokes.Don't let them see you worry. Act like you haven't a care in the world.
    Go home and cry yourself to sleep , again.
    Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

    Sometimes I write a poem

    That's how I deal with my feelings.
    I'm glad you've found a way to deal with your feelings that works for you, but that wouldn't work for me! But I thank you for the suggestion.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Here's a perspective from an ESTP, 7w8.

    I've always been an aloof, objective, tactical, problem-solver.
    Somehow my purpose in life is to figure out how to make things happen.
    Emotions are not a primary skill set for such a life, and I really didn't have to deal with them until about two years ago, at the tender age of 34.

    Why did I have to develop my tertiary function, Fe? Because I was in a really difficult part of my life, and I was unable to make decisions as to how to resolve things, and move on.

    I'm going to say that again.

    Me, an ESTP, was unable to make DECISIONS.

    Why?

    Well, as it turns out, not all decisions can be solved in a spreadsheet, or with on the fly analytical problem solving skills. There are some MAJOR decisions in life, and of course many EVERYDAY decisions too that require each of us to decide how we FEEL about something.

    Well, how about that? If you don't have a well developed set of feelings, you can be stopped in your tracks. I would have NEVER guessed that a possibility if it had not happened to me first hand. I actually went into a major depression over this, as I have never been unable to make things happen, or been unable to decide my destiny in real time. That really screwed my head up.

    So. What did I do?

    I layed by the pool and thought. And thought. And thought some more. And that didn't help. Then I layed by the pool some more and tried to FEEL. I asked myself some silly questions: (1) How do I feel right now? (2) Why do I feel this way? (3) What does it mean? (4) What am I going to do about it?

    After about a month of asking myself these things several times per day, my feelings began to come alive. It was freaking WEIRD. But it got me through my issues. It let me solve my problems. It allowed me to find a way through things, and ultimately I got better very quickly.

    Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.

    So, I'd like to take a moment to thank you wonderful Idyllics for using your feelings, and for showing the rest of us how to do it well. Please be patient with the Thinkers in your lives. We are not heartless assholes. We are trying to make ourselves useful by offering fool proof solutions to things that are valid under all circumstances. Us being "aloof" just means we are trying to be unbiased. We really do care. Our feelings can be hurt, and when they are it's pretty deep, but we tend to get over it quickly. We are not beyond hope. It just takes the right circumstances in our lives to compel us to develop something we are not naturally good at.

    Peace to you all,

    -Halla
    Thank you, Halla.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    I like your ranting! You hit the nail on the head when you said you weren't 100% facts and logic. Everyone should be able to function in a way that they find valid and is conducive to their wellbeing. Why would we all conform to someone else's way of living because they decided their way of thinking was more "legitimate"? We're all pre-programmed to function in different ways, which means everyone is inherently biased as to what they think is legitimate.


    I'm glad you've found a way to deal with your feelings that works for you, but that wouldn't work for me! But I thank you for the suggestion.
    I was being a bit facetious and cynical. it's really not that bad at all.

    Someone needs to invent "Touch Tone Typing" where somehow, The keyboard reads your mood and intent and your typeface is color coded to a matching emotion. This would be brilliant .. no?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I was being a bit facetious and cynical. it's really not that bad at all.

    Someone needs to invent "Touch Tone Typing" where somehow, The keyboard reads your mood and intent and your typeface is color coded to a matching emotion. This would be brilliant .. no?
    Ok? What I'm talking about is pretty serious.

  6. #26
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    I never said I didn't take you seriously.

    Only to not take my suggestion too seriously.

    Do you see the difference?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I never said I didn't take you seriously.

    Only to not take my suggestion too seriously.

    Do you see the difference?
    Yes, I do. Thank you for clarifying. In the sense that I'm talking about it, it inflicts serious damage on others. I'm talking about discriminating against people in a way that leads to their destruction as emotional or physical beings. Also, I think it's weird to tell people what to take seriously or what not to. Everybody takes the things that are important to them or concern their happiness seriously. Who has the right to tell you that what's important to you is not important?

    EDIT: Haha, I misread what you were saying again! (I'm going through things REALLY fast.) Never mind.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    Yes, I do. Thank you for clarifying. In the sense that I'm talking about it, it inflicts serious damage on others. I'm talking about discriminating against people in a way that leads to their destruction as emotional or physical beings. Also, I think it's weird to tell people what to take seriously or what not to. Everybody takes the things that are important to them or concern their happiness seriously. Who has the right to tell you that what's important to you is not important?
    Ok.. we risk thread derailment.
    SO I am just going to say that I believe we are not anywhere near the same page tonight, emotionally or mentally and therefore before we have a complete communication breakdown, I am going to take a time out.
    Talk to you some other time..

    Regards!

    Edit Ok then.. you can disregard this post

  9. #29
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else but I know addressing my own emotions is part of my fundamental well-being. Call me an "extreme" feeler or whatever you want. But in order to function normally, I need a certain amount of freedom and independence and ability to make choices for myself. I have psychological needs that are as fundamental to my daily life as my physical needs. When I'm under psychological stress, within days it manifests itself as physical illness. The mind and the body are connected.
    I agree with you and I understand that people can easily go through that. If I was letting my emotions take over my body, I can see that having detrimental effects on my body. Are these people telling you to deny your emotional states or to simply dissociate from them? Dissociating from your emotions doesn't mean you completely abandon your emotions! It just means that for a brief period of time, you are able to look at whatever situation you're in from a different viewpoint- one which is a little more 'objective' in nature. I'm not saying that you should deny your emotions at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl
    Looking at a situation objectively means taking a lot of things into consideration, including emotions. And ultimately, there's no such thing as looking at something "objectively" because the weight that people place on various factors depends on their own priorities. And we already know that people have fundamentally different priorities and motivations in life. A "thinking" type simply weighs impersonal factors more than personal factors. A "feeling" type weighs personal factors more than impersonal factors. I really object to this idea that feelers leave out criteria that thinkers don't. All types leave out an equal amount of criteria. It's just what those criteria are that makes the difference.
    I also agree with this. In fact, I gave an outline on how many people make decisions. They use personal factors in their decision making processes but they also use logic to help them out. I think that explains the thought process well. I know I want something- I have no logical reason for wanting the thing and I figure out how to get what I want. However, I understand some people think differently. This wasn't even at the crux of what I was arguing against though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl
    Everybody has to be responsible for their own personal well-being. In order to do that, you have to create an environment where everybody CAN take care of their own personal well-being. To create an environment that is biased toward people that prioritize things a certain way is exactly that: biased. What I'm objecting to is preventing people from taking care of themselves because you insist that they evaluate situations the same way you do, which is discriminating. They think that their method of evaluating is somehow more legitimate. That's impossible because we're all biased toward prioritizing different things for our own benefit.
    True but while I don't know if this is true or not, I have some people make decisions on emotions which harm others directly or indirectly- decisions which the person would have likely not made if viewing things more objectively. People should be allowed to take care of their own personal well-being if they are able to do so without harming others in some way. One of the "examples" you stated seemed to have to do with organizations. I worked in a hospital kitchen (and yes- the food was awful.. we employees got higher-quality cafeteria food instead) for a while- it was in a sense like "assembly line" work. Your emotions didn't matter at the kitchen. You just had to get your work done. There are many jobs which are like that. Efficiency is the most important thing and nothing else. Not every organization is about expressing your individuality.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I agree with you and I understand that people can easily go through that. If I was letting my emotions take over my body, I can see that having detrimental effects on my body. Are these people telling you to deny your emotional states or to simply dissociate from them? Dissociating from your emotions doesn't mean you completely abandon your emotions! It just means that for a brief period of time, you are able to look at whatever situation you're in from a different viewpoint- one which is a little more 'objective' in nature. I'm not saying that you should deny your emotions at all!



    I also agree with this. In fact, I gave an outline on how many people make decisions. They use personal factors in their decision making processes but they also use logic to help them out. I think that explains the thought process well. I know I want something- I have no logical reason for wanting the thing and I figure out how to get what I want. However, I understand some people think differently. This wasn't even at the crux of what I was arguing against though.




    True but while I don't know if this is true or not, I have some people make decisions on emotions which harm others directly or indirectly- decisions which the person would have likely not made if viewing things more objectively. People should be allowed to take care of their own personal well-being if they are able to do so without harming others in some way. One of the "examples" you stated seemed to have to do with organizations. I worked in a hospital kitchen (and yes- the food was awful.. we employees got higher-quality cafeteria food instead) for a while- it was in a sense like "assembly line" work. Your emotions didn't matter at the kitchen. You just had to get your work done. There are many jobs which are like that. Efficiency is the most important thing and nothing else. Not every organization is about expressing your individuality.
    You missed the entire point of what I was saying! I'm saying that there is no more value in assessing a situation "objectively" as there is assessing a situation "subjectively." Impersonal judgments weigh impersonal criteria more than personal criteria. Personal judgments weigh more personal criteria than impersonal criteria. It's the same formula except with different weights. "Objective judgments" are no more valid than "subjective" judgments. Do you understand what I'm saying?

    Everybody measures situations based on different criteria. Each are equally valid because everybody is biased toward valuing a certain set of criteria. And the truth is that there's no such thing as "objectivity" because it's just weighing different and impersonal but equally biased criteria.

    So for example, let's take a person who assesses a situation differently than you do. You may not think that their assessment is "objective." Who cares? Ultimately your judgment is no more valid than theirs. You are considering different factors that are more important to YOU or make more sense to YOU. But the other person has different factors that are more important to THEM and make more sense to THEM.

    An objective judgment considers factors X and Y. A subjective judgment considers factors A and B. Who is to say that X and Y are more valid factors than A and B? Or what the "correct" or "more valid" way of judging is?

    What I'm saying has nothing to do with expressing individuality. It has everything to do with everyone's basic right to be treated equally within a system. No one should be forced to function according to another person's whims because that person's way of life is the best according to that person. Obviously it's equally important for everybody to be able to pursue their own wellbeing, but a person should be able to live their life without trying to "please" another person or have to conform to someone else's standards of what is right or wrong. Why? SEE ABOVE. Everyone and his cousin thinks that their orientation to the world is the "best" or "smartest" or "most valuable" or "most objective."

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