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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    "If you can't change the world, change yourself." No, I'm not saying those feelers should learn how to act/think like a T-type; I'm saying that those feelers should learn how to be… less painfully aware of damages other people do unto them, for the lack of a better phrase. That is, in my opinion, pretty much the only way they can get out of the unhealthy, pessimistic outbursts they keep reliving.
    Welp, pretty much this.

    If you've got a mentality similar to: "I give and give and give and I feel like people take advantage of me "

    Well.. stop giving so much. Or, find the people who value the same things that you do, and concentrate on giving to them.

    It's always going to hurt you when people don't reciprocate. But if you hang around people who 'use' you or if you continue to care for them while exhausting yourself, guess what? Your situation, your sanity, your mindset, and your perception of life, will never change.

    Find a way to give your gifts to the world, but with a healthy dose of self-preservation. Find people who actually appreciate your gifts. Stop burning yourself for people who you feel really don't give a damn.


    I'm always going to loathe dickish and selfish behavior. Part of me tolerates it when I have to, but a lot of me will never tolerate it. So, I either avoid it or tackle it head-on.

  2. #102
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    I believe that emotions are the glue that can hold your relationships together. The more significant the relationship, the more important emotional expression is.

    I quit taking anti-depressants a few months ago, and have been much more likely to cry lately. To my great surprise, my girl loves it. I was sure she would look at me sideways, but that has not been the case. Ssometimes what I think is true, is simply not.

  3. #103
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Emotions are important signals, they alert me and urge me to investigate something. Why am I having this emotional response? Refined emotions are like a lighthouse, they guide you from a potentially dangerous situation to a safety zone. The less refined the emotions, the more likely you are to smash up against the rocks. That's why careful examination is required to figure out exactly where to turn so as to use the emotion positively. I find that many Thinkers tend to have less specific emotions - they are so vague and broad, that the danger of being misled is great, and so naturally they do not depend much on them. It's much safer to ignore them, but there are situations in which they cannot be ignored or stifled. Feelers tend to have broader emotional palettes. Because some Thinkers cannot grasp the subtle nuances of other people's emotions, they see those who use them, as well, stupid: "How do you make decisions based on emotion? How ludicrous!". But a Feeler does NOT make decisions based on emotion. Emotion is simply a factored that is considered because it is recognized as a valuable tool for understanding yourself and your needs/wants. There are Thinkers who do this as well of course, but Feelers are more closely associated with emotion because it aids Feeling more than it does Thinking.

    This is where the actual Feeling function kicks in - Fi reasons out the meaning, searches for the answer, and decides what to do. People who act out on emotion without reasoning are not necessarily Feelers - they are merely people who have not stopped to process their emotions, who don't know what to do with them but react. Everyone does this from time to time - they act on the emotion without fully processing it, and then it gets ugly. This includes positive emotions also, which can feel negative to others if they come out in an overwhelming, smothering manner, but generally they are given much more leeway than negative emotions (understandably so).

    It's also important, for me, as a Fi-dom, to have some time to process an emotional feeling. When I do lash out or "overreact", it's because someone is demanding an immediate response. The person I argue with the most in my life is my sister (ESFP), partly because she demands an answer RIGHT NOW, and I sometimes just need to calm down, sort through the emotion, and then develop a rational Feeling to act with. Yes, she uses Fi, but it's so foreign to me, the way it is paired with Se. Her Se is always like "now, now, now!". Processing of deeper feeling is put off for immediate action, and I basically just feel RUSHED, which just serves to fuel any negative emotion.

    In a work situation, I usually am able to take time to process any emotion before acting on it. The only time it is difficult is when speaking directly with a client and they begin to annoy me. I try and just "yes" them to make them go away, so I can deal with the frustration, get over it, and then work towards a solution. Email is wonderful for avoiding these situations (delayed reactions!), so I use that as much as possible. I do find myself with the ESTJ business suit sometimes, which results in a terse, let's-get-to-the-point attitude, and I think it's because FiNe is not taken seriously or it's like an alien language that is written off as silly, nonsensical babble. People have a quizzical look on their face when I'm speaking my native tongue.

    Anyway, before I go off on another tangent (or maybe this is another tangent).....emotions alerting a person to how they feel is directly related to forming values, particularly personal values. Why am I upset about this? Because this is IMPORTANT to ME. This makes me happy - WHY? This may seem basic - doesn't everyone know what is important to them or what makes them happy? No, they don't. Most people take the prescribed route - this is what a successful, happy person looks like, this is the way to go. But there is no one-size-fits-all path. Some people realize this at a point in their life; mid-life crisis is a convenient stereotype of how that occurs. In some ways, as a Fi-dom, I feel like my whole life is a mid-life crisis .

    The great thing about Fi is that usually the Fi-dom recognizes just how individual values are, and as emotions shine a light on these personal values, there is no "appropriate" or "correct" emotional response. The individual feels how he feels, and that is his own personal emotional response that is trying to direct him to what he needs. I mean, who decided what is the right way to feel in a situation? It seems very arbitrary from my perspective.

    The bad thing about Fi is that staying true to one's own Feeling all the time does not always promote harmony or communication, as you're basically speaking your own language. I've had to learn what is appropriate and what is not, in a way that Fe people seem to grasp more readily. I've always felt like an unspoken code was out there, and I missed the memo. I do resent this pigeon-holing my feeling into some ready-made box, but on the other hand, it lessens misunderstanding. It can feel like something is lost in translation at times though. That is very frustrating for me, and I think it may be partly why Fi-doms are so associated with being artists, poets, musicians, etc, because something has to be created to give an accurate expression of a Feeling which currently has no approximation in the external world.

    As a Fi-dom, I do not find Fe-doms the most oppressive when it comes to dictating appropriate feeling. Occasionally they can be - you should feel that way, it should make you feel this, you should want to this or that, etc. The worst can be tert & inferior Fe users. Everything is overreacting, every emotional response is simply someone being dramatic, etc. The same way Fi in the tert & inferior can seem so bristling rude - appropriateness is thrown out the window.

    And I did not mean to turn this into Fe/Fi thing, but Fe & Fi can and will meet each other in a nice middle. Both are more likely than inferior F users to recognize the value of the other. I'm a lot more aware of what is appropriate feeling for a situation and what is socially acceptable expression of emotion than my INTP uncle for instance, and without devaluing individual feelings & emotions. I find many Fe-users, having that broader, refined emotional palette, will be much better at interpreting emotions outside the appropriate zone, and mitigating circumstances to not steamroll over them. Intelligence & maturity goes a long way for anyone, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shmooooooooo View Post
    I, as an INTP, until very recently had just the despicable view of emotions as completely irrational and stupid. I considered use of emotion - especially to persuade - as indicative of some sort of mental debility.

    You can imagine how much pain this caused to my INFP mother.

    However, after getting a bit into MBTI, I did a fair bit of soul searching and much to my horror came to the realization that it was I who was at fault for the vast majority of the conflict and the suffering growing over the past years living with my mother. So she and I had a bit of a sit-down where I explained my ignorance and how wrong I was to completely ignore emotion. This was definitely a big healing moment, as my mother had feared we would simply grow apart without ever having understood one another when I move to university in about a month. In addition, I've definitely become more aware of my own subjective values, the possession of which I had been in denial about.

    While my mother and I still don't always see eye to eye, now I definitely go out of my way to see things from point of view, whereas previously I would simply tend to steamroll anything she was saying as stupid. Conversely, she also realized that my emotional detachment wasn't necessarily borderline autism, and that just because I almost never express what I feel doesn't mean I feel nothing.

    So yeah, emotions are important. Understand them, tend them. Even if you don't use them in large part yourself, accept them as a valid way of achieving reconciliation with the world around you.
    Nice post - thanks. It's unusual for any INTP to admit to such a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    I'm not really all that concerned about what's "appropriate." And I decide for myself the extent to which I want to display my emotions. It's an individual choice. It goes back to what I was saying about personal wellbeing. You wouldn't want someone to force you to behave according to standards that weren't healthy for you, would you? It's just that different people have vastly different emotional needs and people often assume that other people approach the world with similar needs and wants for psychological health. False. What I need to do to live well and be happy could easily be vastly different from what you need to do.

    Edit: And it seems your last sentence is an example of what I'm objecting to. Someone else thinking that they know what is best for another person! This whole thread is about how people have fundamentally different end goals. And fundamentally different needs. So you can never know what is "best" for another person. Or what makes the most sense. Or what the best methods for them are. Et cetera.
    And this is an example of a Fi-user balking at the idea of there being correct or appropriate emotions and feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Here's a perspective from an ESTP, 7w8.

    I've always been an aloof, objective, tactical, problem-solver.
    Somehow my purpose in life is to figure out how to make things happen.
    Emotions are not a primary skill set for such a life, and I really didn't have to deal with them until about two years ago, at the tender age of 34.

    Why did I have to develop my tertiary function, Fe? Because I was in a really difficult part of my life, and I was unable to make decisions as to how to resolve things, and move on.

    I'm going to say that again.

    Me, an ESTP, was unable to make DECISIONS.

    Why?

    Well, as it turns out, not all decisions can be solved in a spreadsheet, or with on the fly analytical problem solving skills. There are some MAJOR decisions in life, and of course many EVERYDAY decisions too that require each of us to decide how we FEEL about something.

    Well, how about that? If you don't have a well developed set of feelings, you can be stopped in your tracks. I would have NEVER guessed that a possibility if it had not happened to me first hand. I actually went into a major depression over this, as I have never been unable to make things happen, or been unable to decide my destiny in real time. That really screwed my head up.

    So. What did I do?

    I layed by the pool and thought. And thought. And thought some more. And that didn't help. Then I layed by the pool some more and tried to FEEL. I asked myself some silly questions: (1) How do I feel right now? (2) Why do I feel this way? (3) What does it mean? (4) What am I going to do about it?

    After about a month of asking myself these things several times per day, my feelings began to come alive. It was freaking WEIRD. But it got me through my issues. It let me solve my problems. It allowed me to find a way through things, and ultimately I got better very quickly.

    Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.

    So, I'd like to take a moment to thank you wonderful Idyllics for using your feelings, and for showing the rest of us how to do it well. Please be patient with the Thinkers in your lives. We are not heartless assholes. We are trying to make ourselves useful by offering fool proof solutions to things that are valid under all circumstances. Us being "aloof" just means we are trying to be unbiased. We really do care. Our feelings can be hurt, and when they are it's pretty deep, but we tend to get over it quickly. We are not beyond hope. It just takes the right circumstances in our lives to compel us to develop something we are not naturally good at.

    Peace to you all,

    -Halla
    And this is the "crisis" that hopefully everyone experiences at some point to understand their emotions, develop/refine their Feelings, and create some set of personal values to guide their decision making. Welcome to Fi-land!
    Although too many people just go on the emotional rollercoaster - they buy a motorcycle, quit their job, leave their wife & kids & then revert back to the old ways once the crisis has been averted (or maybe diverted...).

    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    I was thinking about what T and F really mean, what is this logic and what are feelings, and what is the importance of having both. Combining what I learned from MBTI and reading some literature on evolutionary psychology and biology I got the following model built up:

    Thinking value system rigs one's brain to favor competition within one's species. It places more value on own self and less value in other individuals. Result is feelings of confidence, boosted self-value, awesomeness, but also perceiving other people have less value, deriving enjoyment from competition be it just sports and verbal sparring (arguments), up to making somebody else cry or even physical confrontation. T-value system also makes one be less interested in people and relationships in general. Not surprisingly most of male population tests as T-types. Some of the T-types however have easier access to feelings (all those whose feeling is their tertiary function).

    Feeling value system rigs one's brain for cooperation within one's species. It places a lot of value on other people and less value one oneself. As a result feelers may lack confidence and experience feelings of low self worth, however they will have increased interest in other people and relationships in general, more acutely aware of worth of others, more sympathetic and desiring to seek win-win situations rather than win-lose competitive situations. Competition is distasteful to F-types. Most of women test as F-types as well as about 20% of men. F-types with tertiary T-function will find it easier to access T-type logic.

    When decision stands to be made, our judgement function can reference either T or F value system. The two value systems, however, are inherently incompatible. When the feeling value system has been crossly violated, this sensation to us is known to us as guilt. When thinker value systems has been violated, this sensation is known to us as lack of respect, disdain. Not surprisingly it also plays into misunderstanding across genders. Unlike the N and S divide, or the I and E divide, this divide does actually correlate to gender and is responsible for the famous "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" saying.

    What happens if you don't process your feelings is that you may either completely reject them and use pure T-type logic in relations to other people. This can harm your relationships as you will start acting selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense. And on the other extreme if you don't take time to process your emotions this may lead you to act in a way that others will simply take advantage of you. You will be cooperating where you should have been competing, so once again it can harm you.

    So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :P Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.
    I think this post is showing us the Fe-users view, which is something I don't want to undertake describing in detail .... It touches on aspects that Feeling in general shares, but as a Fi-user, I am more likely to be accused of selfishness than guilting people. Unless we're talking moral values, in which case I may ride the high horse.

    Some of this sounds like Ji vs Je, basically. Things become complicated when you try and distinguish the functions themselves as opposed to letters. Fi & Ti have things in common, but so do Fe & Fi, and Fe & Te and Te & Ti... It's like a circle chart, and people need to find that sweet middle spot where we all overlap.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #104
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Welp, pretty much this.

    If you've got a mentality similar to: "I give and give and give and I feel like people take advantage of me "
    You're getting the feeling function wrong.
    It's not as colloquial as that.
    It's like giving up a $350,000 contract because the work doesn't thrill you. ...that's closer to the actual definition of "feeling".

    I don't think any of the feelers that posted even mentioned what you just said as a problem. That's an inter- personal thing, not a manifestation of the feeling function and T's are capable of it too. Especially since more T's seem to be less socially adept than most F's, I don't know if you noticed this but some F's are guarded because they try to get a read on people, first (ESFPs and ENFPs usually).

    As someone who has repressed their feelings and refrained from "giving" to others I gotta say that is TERRIBLE advice. It never ends well, take it from me.
    You end up an emotional cripple and there's little more dysfunctional than a feeler that can't literally feel.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  5. #105
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Emotions are important signals, they alert me and urge me to investigate something. Why am I having this emotional response? Refined emotions are like a lighthouse, they guide you from a potentially dangerous situation to a safety zone. The less refined the emotions, the more likely you are to smash up against the rocks. That's why careful examination is required to figure out exactly where to turn so as to use the emotion positively. I find that many Thinkers tend to have less specific emotions - they are so vague and broad, that the danger of being misled is great, and so naturally they do not depend much on them. It's much safer to ignore them, but there are situations in which they cannot be ignored or stifled. Feelers tend to have broader emotional palettes. Because some Thinkers cannot grasp the subtle nuances of other people's emotions, they see those who use them, as well, stupid: "How do you make decisions based on emotion? How ludicrous!". But a Feeler does NOT make decisions based on emotion. Emotion is simply a factored that is considered because it is recognized as a valuable tool for understanding yourself and your needs/wants. There are Thinkers who do this as well of course, but Feelers are more closely associated with emotion because it aids Feeling more than it does Thinking.

    This is where the actual Feeling function kicks in - Fi reasons out the meaning, searches for the answer, and decides what to do. People who act out on emotion without reasoning are not necessarily Feelers - they are merely people who have not stopped to process their emotions, who don't know what to do with them but react. Everyone does this from time to time - they act on the emotion without fully processing it, and then it gets ugly. This includes positive emotions also, which can feel negative to others if they come out in an overwhelming, smothering manner, but generally they are given much more leeway than negative emotions (understandably so).

    It's also important, for me, as a Fi-dom, to have some time to process an emotional feeling. When I do lash out or "overreact", it's because someone is demanding an immediate response. The person I argue with the most in my life is my sister (ESFP), partly because she demands an answer RIGHT NOW, and I sometimes just need to calm down, sort through the emotion, and then develop a rational Feeling to act with. Yes, she uses Fi, but it's so foreign to me, the way it is paired with Se. Her Se is always like "now, now, now!". Processing of deeper feeling is put off for immediate action, and I basically just feel RUSHED, which just serves to fuel any negative emotion.

    In a work situation, I usually am able to take time to process any emotion before acting on it. The only time it is difficult is when speaking directly with a client and they begin to annoy me. I try and just "yes" them to make them go away, so I can deal with the frustration, get over it, and then work towards a solution. Email is wonderful for avoiding these situations (delayed reactions!), so I use that as much as possible. I do find myself with the ESTJ business suit sometimes, which results in a terse, let's-get-to-the-point attitude, and I think it's because FiNe is not taken seriously or it's like an alien language that is written off as silly, nonsensical babble. People have a quizzical look on their face when I'm speaking my native tongue.

    Anyway, before I go off on another tangent (or maybe this is another tangent).....emotions alerting a person to how they feel is directly related to forming values, particularly personal values. Why am I upset about this? Because this is IMPORTANT to ME. This makes me happy - WHY? This may seem basic - doesn't everyone know what is important to them or what makes them happy? No, they don't. Most people take the prescribed route - this is what a successful, happy person looks like, this is the way to go. But there is no one-size-fits-all path. Some people realize this at a point in their life; mid-life crisis is a convenient stereotype of how that occurs. In some ways, as a Fi-dom, I feel like my whole life is a mid-life crisis .

    The great thing about Fi is that usually the Fi-dom recognizes just how individual values are, and as emotions shine a light on these personal values, there is no "appropriate" or "correct" emotional response. The individual feels how he feels, and that is his own personal emotional response that is trying to direct him to what he needs. I mean, who decided what is the right way to feel in a situation? It seems very arbitrary from my perspective.

    The bad thing about Fi is that staying true to one's own Feeling all the time does not always promote harmony or communication, as you're basically speaking your own language. I've had to learn what is appropriate and what is not, in a way that Fe people seem to grasp more readily. I've always felt like an unspoken code was out there, and I missed the memo. I do resent this pigeon-holing my feeling into some ready-made box, but on the other hand, it lessens misunderstanding. It can feel like something is lost in translation at times though. That is very frustrating for me, and I think it may be partly why Fi-doms are so associated with being artists, poets, musicians, etc, because something has to be created to give an accurate expression of a Feeling which currently has no approximation in the external world.

    As a Fi-dom, I do not find Fe-doms the most oppressive when it comes to dictating appropriate feeling. Occasionally they can be - you should feel that way, it should make you feel this, you should want to this or that, etc. The worst can be tert & inferior Fe users. Everything is overreacting, every emotional response is simply someone being dramatic, etc. The same way Fi in the tert & inferior can seem so bristling rude - appropriateness is thrown out the window.

    And I did not mean to turn this into Fe/Fi thing, but Fe & Fi can and will meet each other in a nice middle. Both are more likely than inferior F users to recognize the value of the other. I'm a lot more aware of what is appropriate feeling for a situation and what is socially acceptable expression of emotion than my INTP uncle for instance, and without devaluing individual feelings & emotions. I find many Fe-users, having that broader, refined emotional palette, will be much better at interpreting emotions outside the appropriate zone, and mitigating circumstances to not steamroll over them. Intelligence & maturity goes a long way for anyone, of course.

    I'd say this is a very thoughtful post about how people use emotions to make good decisions. Emotions do have their purpose. I definitely use Fe (or it could be Te)- if I see someone doing something which I think could have possibly not been well-thought out, I find it in my best interest to let that person know what I think.
    So many people do things that harm others! People (especially Fi users) say I'm such a nice guy but I just know how to be polite and still achieve my personal goals. There's almost always a way around being a prick. I tend to be less prickish than a lot of Feelers I know but that's because I recognize it's logical to be nice!
    It usually is unless

    a.) You have so much power and influence that even if you were hated- you'd be respected by enough people (or intimidate others) that you wouldn't be a complete idiot by being a jerk if that's what you really want to do.
    b.) Your goals do not involve people liking you at all! Surely, a person can be highly competent and not very likable- but it's better to be both competent and likable.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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