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  1. #91
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Indeed, Liesl. Now will you stop bothering us T's for being our cruel, emotionless, robotic selves?!

    You demand that T's understand and respect the Feeling-stance...
    ...how much understanding and respect do you have for the Thinking-stance?

    Why is it so hard for you F's to do this?
    Outside of this forum culture, I would say that many (or maybe even most) of the assumed T's I have known are pretty personable in their own ways... the ones that aren't are the ones that most people seem to hate (but they are completely oblivious to it and don't know why people dislike them).

    I try to respect T's as long as they don't try to NITPICK everything I say (for their own ego trip).

    For me, it's hard to make decisions in my best interest sometimes because I don't want to offend others. However, I am still very young so I don't always know how to handle those situations.

  2. #92
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Aw, I'm sure most T-type people don't "act selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense." At least not any of the mature ones.

    Is that a bias against T-type logic I see here or am I just being silly?

    Well, if it's not a bias, it is, at least, a less-than-solid understanding of T-type logic.
    Well-put. It should be noted that selfish, callous, and cold are highly subjective characterizations, as are warm, sensitive, and giving. One person's warm and friendly is often my intrusive and cloying, just as my respectful and concise might be someone else's aloof and blunt. This is why I try to focus on what the person really did rather than how they caused me to feel.

    A perspective that is more subjective and oriented toward others would seem to predispose one to the influence of others. I am not surprised that strong feeling types find resisting this difficult. I find it easy, but only because I try to remain detached and objective.

  3. #93
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Why is it so hard for you F's to do this?
    because we have an exaggerated awareness of how our decisions will affect other people. if i go into medicine, like my dad, will my mom feel slighted? if i go into education, like my mom, will my dad feel bad? and so on, like that. i don't want to make a decision that has a good likelihood of hurting another person. and while i understand that regardless of the decision, it is going to impact some people negatively and some people positively, i still want to try to account for the feelings of those i care about the most in the process.

    You demand that T's understand and respect the Feeling-stance...
    ...how much understanding and respect do you have for the Thinking-stance?
    yeah. there needs to be respect and understanding on both sides.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Hate to say this, but your mindset is what's bringing you down, methinks.



    Why is it so hard for you F's to do this?
    Probably because we care about how other people feel.

    As far as I can tell, the world puts the thinking stance far, far, far about the feeling stance. Especially in this part of the world, especially in a male dominate society. There's nothing but respect for thinkers. It's the feelers that get ridiculed by society and intentionally left out.

    My mindset is my mindset because I'm surrounded by thinkers who do nothing but belittle me for having feelings, maybe if you felt you'd feel it too.

    Of course there's a bias in this thread. This is the NF section and an NF venting thread. We feel persecuted. We're sharing out experiences. Are you really surprised it doesn't reflect warm fuzzy feelings on T's?

    Edit: Okay, I read the "getting the feeling function wrong" thread and I realize I was quite harsh with this post but I am not going to remove it. Is it just me or do T's apply a lot of colloquialism to what "Feeling" means? That's what happened in this thread.
    Last edited by Vamp; 08-12-2010 at 03:13 AM. Reason: read "getting the feeling function wrong" thread.
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  5. #95
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    because we have an exaggerated awareness of how our decisions will affect other people. if i go into medicine, like my dad, will my mom feel slighted? if i go into education, like my mom, will my dad feel bad? and so on, like that. i don't want to make a decision that has a good likelihood of hurting another person. and while i understand that regardless of the decision, it is going to impact some people negatively and some people positively, i still want to try to account for the feelings of those i care about the most in the process.
    Would one of your parents really feel hurt if you followed more in the footsteps of the other? What about all the patients you won't heal if you go into education? Or the students you will not inspire if you go into medicine? Whichever choice you make, you will be turning away from those options, experiences, and potential loved ones on the road not taken. To me, the only solid basis for such a decision, the basis that will minimize regret, is the only aspect that is guaranteed to be involved whatever you do: namely, you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As far as I can tell, the world puts the thinking stance far, far, far about the feeling stance. Especially in this part of the world, especially in a male dominate society. There's nothing but respect for thinkers. It's the feelers that get ridiculed by society and intentionally left out.

    Of course there's a bias in this thread. This is the NF section and an NF venting thread. We feel persecuted. We're sharing out experiences. Are you really surprised it doesn't reflect warm fuzzy feelings on T's?

    Edit: Okay, I read the "getting the feeling function wrong" thread and I realize I was quite harsh with this post but I am not going to remove it. Is it just me or do T's apply a lot of colloquialism to what "Feeling" means? That's what happened in this thread.
    From a thinker's perspective, I see just the opposite. Thinking, logic, reasoning, study, scholarship are dismissed as too much work, and left for the nerds and eggheads. Popular culture promotes instant gratification, appearance over substance, emotional persuasion over logical convincing. Just look at advertising and political messages. They don't lay out facts and reasoning, they merely cheerlead for their product or candidate, often exploiting sex, fear, and social insecurities.

    But don't worry, if I am at all representative of most T's, we are not put off by NF venting. We recognize it for what it is, and learn from it what we can. As for what "feeling" means, you are right that different people have different interpretations. From what I can tell, the MBTI usage focuses on values, while the more colloquial usage focuses on emotions. They may be related, but are not the same. I, for example, have a fairly strong sense of personal values, but am generally not an emotional person.

  6. #96
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Well-put. It should be noted that selfish, callous, and cold are highly subjective characterizations, as are warm, sensitive, and giving. One person's warm and friendly is often my intrusive and cloying, just as my respectful and concise might be someone else's aloof and blunt. This is why I try to focus on what the person really did rather than how they caused me to feel.

    A perspective that is more subjective and oriented toward others would seem to predispose one to the influence of others. I am not surprised that strong feeling types find resisting this difficult. I find it easy, but only because I try to remain detached and objective.
    This is a very good analysis. Thank you Coriolis!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Probably because we care about how other people feel.
    So are you implying that T's don't care about how other people feel?

    As far as I can tell, the world puts the thinking stance far, far, far about the feeling stance. Especially in this part of the world, especially in a male dominate society. There's nothing but respect for thinkers. It's the feelers that get ridiculed by society and intentionally left out.
    Well, I think you're over-victimizing yourself. Just what kind of terrible things have you been through that other people/feelers haven't been through? (Sure, the fact that others have been through the same pain may not relieve much of your own pain - still, that doesn't mean you should wallow in self-pity and distress forever. Unless you're a masochist, of course.)

    I honestly don't think victim complex is a "traditional", healthy F-type trait. Believe me when I say it's possible to be strong without being a T.

    My mindset is my mindset because I'm surrounded by thinkers who do nothing but belittle me for having feelings, maybe if you felt you'd feel it too.
    Hey, I can tell you all about the times I was about silly things!

    Of course there's a bias in this thread. This is the NF section and an NF venting thread. We feel persecuted. We're sharing out experiences. Are you really surprised it doesn't reflect warm fuzzy feelings on T's?
    Nah, I'm not surprised at all.

    (That wasn't an insult, just in case you couldn't tell.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Would one of your parents really feel hurt if you followed more in the footsteps of the other? What about all the patients you won't heal if you go into education? Or the students you will not inspire if you go into medicine? Whichever choice you make, you will be turning away from those options, experiences, and potential loved ones on the road not taken. To me, the only solid basis for such a decision, the basis that will minimize regret, is the only aspect that is guaranteed to be involved whatever you do: namely, you.

    From a thinker's perspective, I see just the opposite. Thinking, logic, reasoning, study, scholarship are dismissed as too much work, and left for the nerds and eggheads. Popular culture promotes instant gratification, appearance over substance, emotional persuasion over logical convincing. Just look at advertising and political messages. They don't lay out facts and reasoning, they merely cheerlead for their product or candidate, often exploiting sex, fear, and social insecurities.

    But don't worry, if I am at all representative of most T's, we are not put off by NF venting. We recognize it for what it is, and learn from it what we can. As for what "feeling" means, you are right that different people have different interpretations. From what I can tell, the MBTI usage focuses on values, while the more colloquial usage focuses on emotions. They may be related, but are not the same. I, for example, have a fairly strong sense of personal values, but am generally not an emotional person.
    Coriolis has a lot of good things to say.
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  7. #97
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    So are you implying that T's don't care about how other people feel?
    I think perhaps we don't. at least not nearly as much as F's. I know I often don't care about other's feelings, though I do care about what is leading them to feel that way. As with myself, I take interest in the feelings as indicators of something going on, and then track down that something, and focus on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Coriolis has a lot of good things to say.
    ??? No, no, nnnooooooooooo . . . this isn't happening . . .

  8. #98
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I was looking at this thread again and I think this represents the flaws of Feeling types.
    Most importantly, I think the OP is unrepresentative of a healthy Feeling type and most Feelers I know do not act like the OP probably does in public/private situations.
    As someone has the right to express his or her feelings, another person has a right to tell that person to tone it down a little bit- that person has a right to offer advice.
    I doubt the OP was in a situation where she was coerced into dissociating and or denying her feelings. People tell me to do stuff all the time, if I disagree with them... I'm strong enough just not to listen to their advice. I don't get angry or outraged about it. Here's an example. I'm a slob and my mom tells me to clean my room. I don't think my room is messy enough to justify taking the time out to clean it (and I have a tiny bedroom- so it wouldn't take that much time) but I don't think her advice is bad. I wouldn't go on a rant about how she doesn't understand me or my lifestyle because she wants me to clean my room.


    I believe it's important to apply reason to everything a person does.
    It solves a lot of problems, it also makes you more likable.
    Looking at this from a Feeling-based argument, if a person chooses to follow his or her emotions on everything- that person is
    a.) Bound to make countless avoidable mistakes
    b.) Likely to hurt the feelings of others because the subject chose to follow her feelings without any reason except that she felt like it.

    As a Thinker (and I imagine this is the goal of the whopping majority of people, including Feelers, even if this isn't the goal of the OP), I think it's idiotic to initiate or participate in unnecessary conflicts which will harm others. It wastes your own time, it wastes others' time and it gets people not liking you much.

    Of course the term "unnecessary" is subjective and my point is practically moot because what one person considers a necessary conflict, another might consider completely unnecessary. That's why it's important to talk about issues and resolve them rationally and peacefully. Sometimes, feelings prevent people from doing this because the emotions say, "LASH OUT AT THE PERSON!! I AM AWESOME, THE OTHER PERSON SUCKS- I CAN'T THINK OF WHY.. BUT I JUST FEEL BAD LOL SO THAT JUSTIFIES ME TO BE A TOTAL JERK!!!"

    As I previously wrote in this thread, it is important to dissociate from one's feelings but it isn't the same as denying one's feelings.. you can use all the subjective criteria you want to explain your decision but you better damn be able to explain why you chose that subjective criteria and try to figure out whether it's the right decision or not. There's more to life than yourself- you have to consider others too.
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  9. #99
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    <Semi-rant ahead. Proceed with caution, o-feely ones. >

    Let me start by making it clear that my intention is not to offend. I am being 100% honest here as to what I think about the issue at hand in order to provide more perspective on the issue; of course, it is up to you as the reader to decide whether my post has value or not. Right… here goes.

    TBH this thread mildly disturbs me for a number of reasons (no, it's not because I'm butthurt about the "mean" things that are being said about T's in this thread). Really, what can one say to feelers who feel discriminated against for being... well, feelers? This whole thread is moot to begin with.

    Why? Cuz the world ain't changing, no matter how much online anti-Thinking venting passionate feelers do. The best advice I can think of giving those feelers is that: "If you can't change the world, change yourself." No, I'm not saying those feelers should learn how to act/think like a T-type; I'm saying that those feelers should learn how to be… less painfully aware of damages other people do unto them, for the lack of a better phrase. That is, in my opinion, pretty much the only way they can get out of the unhealthy, pessimistic outbursts they keep reliving.

    I'm genuinely sorry, OP, that you're dealing with thinkers who don't understand "the importance of feeling." But just what are you trying to acheive in this thread (other than having your hurt feelings echoed and validated)? I believe the original purpose was to educate the thinkers here on TypoC on "the importance of feeling". But what will you truly gain from educating people on this thread who have nothing to do with your immediate life? I don’t see you looking into practical solutions to solve the problem at hand (unless you are really just looking for some empathy/emotional validation).

    -

    I’ll stop here for now, but I’ll come back and edit this post when I can think of something to add. Please do provide me with feedback.
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  10. #100
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Why? Cuz the world ain't changing, no matter how much online anti-Thinking venting passionate feelers do. The best advice I can think of giving those feelers is that: "If you can't change the world, change yourself." No, I'm not saying those feelers should learn how to act/think like a T-type; I'm saying that those feelers should learn how to be… less painfully aware of damages other people do unto them, for the lack of a better phrase.
    Pardon my grammar ahead of time..

    I agree with you.

    I do think F-types should develop this attitude, or work on developing it...especially to minimize hurt that they/we/whatever feel when it seems we are not being taken seriously. I grew up with an ESTJ dad and I spent most of my childhood and some of my adult life in deep dislike of him because it seemed he discounted my emotions and my thoughts because of how I allowed them come out when I was wound up.

    One of the best things I've realized in life is that if I am happy with me, then others' perceptions/judgements of me really don't mean shit. And even at 32, I still haven't completely figured this out, and not completely happy with myself, but I'm aware I need to not let "those people" affect me.

    It sucks...yes indeed.....and very much so, but time to validate my own feelings ..

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