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  1. #11
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    very likely he forgives and forgets very quickly-both with respect to yourself AND the other people who may not be such ideal friends. Thus the inconsistency. It may be hard as they fill parts of his life he cant find in other places-but at the same time cause problems as well.

    He seeks to vent to you a bit about them as they frustrate him, but he then forgives them and still likes them a lot I bet. I did this when younger and still do sometimes. It also sounds like his emo fluctuates a bit as well-I think this may be a sorta common EXFP thing. So we can be kinda moody, which may seem like we are unhappy-but it is just sort of how we are built and it may average out.

    This nice thing about the Te though, is that once done, it really is done. So you dont have to worry yourself over it too much. If he needs to hear the honest truth for his own benefit though-if these friends are particularly destructive, then I would pull him aside and very directly explain that you care for him greatly-thus want to point out what you see.
    This all sounds quite accurate actually.

    As far as those friends, I've expressed myself to a certain extent already which he was fine with and acknowledged some of my points. I wouldn't say that I am seriously concerned about them being totally destructive for him, but he is somewhat caught between loyalties over having been friends with them for some time, and some underlying frustration over bad situations that they have been somewhat responsible for leading him into in the past.

    The back story is a bit too complicated to explain but he has made some new acquaintances recently who would probably be worth a bit more investment on his part but he's just not trying much. And what I said was something like "so, those people aren't good enough for you then?"...in a context suggesting that he was still hanging out more with the old friends because they're "cooler." Not very nice, I admit. The thing about the old friends that gets me is, this ESFP has made some changes recently which are very commendable and show that he is really trying to improve himself in some key aspects of his life. But, the reaction of the old friends (in my hearing, though not in his) to these changes was like "what an idiot he is! Those changes are going to be really crap for his social life!" So, he won't go to as many wild parties and go out drinking as much as he used to. Is that so bad? That's all they seem to care about. But then, I don't know them well, maybe there is more to them (and his friendships with them) than those attitudes.

    We have discussed the INFJ whose feelings I also probably hurt less...but in a way I am more worried about her. She is both sensitive and fragile. I doubt our friendship would suffer long term but I fear any damage I may have done. I have been pondering for a while how I could say something to her about the "drama" without simply hurting her feelings. That's a difficult balancing act for sure. I don't think I made a good start of it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if you found it difficult to trust due to unhealthy living situations in the past.
    I had a flatmate for a while who would lay serious guilt trips for anything potentially hurtful or inconsiderate I said or did, but didn't realise a lot of the time how hurtful she herself could be. It was at quite a formative time in my life and I think it did have some long-term negative consequences.

    I hate to say it because I love her a lot, but my mum can be somewhat like that too. Not as much as that flatmate, but at least somewhat. And come to think of it, my ex was somewhat like that as well (though we didn't live together and I should probably be glad the relationship wasn't longer than it was!).

    Hm, this is making a little more sense now.
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  2. #12
    Junior Member La de Longe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post

    Who knows, it might actually be good for me to realise that it's possible to have disagreements, fights, and hurt feelings between friends but for the friendship to continue without real permanent damage and sometimes to grow even stronger. It just seems like there's part of me that always thinks in these situations - "this might be it." And yet, when I look at the history of my close friendships, almost none of them have ever ended definitively and certainly not over a small insensitivity or disagreement or misunderstanding. I just have this underlying fear over how these things will play out in the long term.
    I think a lot of this has to do with projecting the way we would handle a situation onto someone else. As INFJs it's really easy for us to put ourselves in another's place and imagine another's reaction, but I also wonder if that makes it even more difficult for us to separate how we would react to something vs how someone else does. Honestly, I don't know if everyone has "this is it" point, and those who do set the ax at very different levels. I have friend who frequently overacts to very minor things, but usually once she's over it she's over it. She's also said that she absolutely cannot cut friends out. This is the exact opposite of how I work.

    That also makes me think of how in terms of other's feelings there's a tendency to take responsibility for things that we're just not responsible for. This is where the excessive guilt comes in, and it's hard to always know where to draw the line with that.

  3. #13
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    I do that all the time. I think I'm being cute and funny, or opinionated and admirable, and then I just end up hurting people.

    But, hey, you apologized, it's best to stop dwelling on it and move on.
    Last edited by musicnerd93; 08-05-2010 at 08:50 AM.

  4. #14
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by La de Longe View Post
    I think a lot of this has to do with projecting the way we would handle a situation onto someone else. As INFJs it's really easy for us to put ourselves in another's place and imagine another's reaction, but I also wonder if that makes it even more difficult for us to separate how we would react to something vs how someone else does. Honestly, I don't know if everyone has "this is it" point, and those who do set the ax at very different levels. I have friend who frequently overacts to very minor things, but usually once she's over it she's over it. She's also said that she absolutely cannot cut friends out. This is the exact opposite of how I work.

    That also makes me think of how in terms of other's feelings there's a tendency to take responsibility for things that we're just not responsible for. This is where the excessive guilt comes in, and it's hard to always know where to draw the line with that.
    Yeah, very good points actually. Thanks for giving me this to think about. Could this be an INFJ blind spot? I have to admit, it is only in fairly recent years that I have really, fully acknowledged that other people are very different from myself. I don’t just mean as far as me being an INFJ and they aren’t, but just in terms of human individuality. It probably sounds a bit silly, but while I think I’ve always been aware intellectually that this is the case, it’s only recently that I’ve fully acknowledged it emotionally. Typology has helped with that too.

    I know what you mean about the friend who overreacts but then she’s over it. Actually, the INFJ whose feelings I hurt a couple of days ago (she’s told me she’s not upset about it and not to worry about it, which made me feel a bit better) is kind of like that. She’s much more likely than me to get really upset with a good friend and say things like “I’ve realised she’s bad for me, I just need to keep my distance from now on!” That might last a little while, but in a few weeks or months or whatever she’ll be back on just as good terms with them as before – at least, if this was a reasonably close friend to begin with. I’m less likely to take offense over what I would consider relatively small offenses from friends, BUT if I get to the stage where I start saying “I don’t trust them any more and really need to keep my distance”, it’s super-serious and will take a lot of repairing. It just doesn’t happen very often.

    As for the ESFP, I’ve discovered through personal experience that he can be pretty mean and immature when upset and angry. He even admits it himself. I think he’s more aware of it than he used to be – he used to just lash out and relieve his feelings that way, and then forget about it and not understand why the other person was still upset. Not understanding the other person’s perspective is a problem, but the plus side is that he forgets and doesn’t seem to hold onto grudges. Grudges are a much bigger problem for someone like me (which I have also admitted to him.) The nice thing is that I now seem to be one of his friends who is well-established enough as a friend that he doesn’t view these sorts of altercations, misunderstandings or disagreements as friendship-threatening.

    I really think part of my problem is I’m too hung up on avoiding conflicts. I mean, a lot of the time avoiding conflicts is good but sometimes you just can’t. Or it means you allow things to build up to an unacceptable level and then the conflict is much more bitter than it should have been. Then I get really frightened and think maybe it’s all over. Somehow I have to learn to deal with conflict in a healthy way and accept it as an occasionally unavoidable, or even healthy, part of friendships and relationships.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Why do I have to feel so excessively terrible when I put my foot in my mouth and/or hurt someone else’s feelings?
    You don't. So don't do it anymore. Don't make it into a big emotional puzzle that you need to solve, just apologize and move on. If it's sincere, great. If not, next time.

  6. #16
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xNTP View Post
    You don't. So don't do it anymore. Don't make it into a big emotional puzzle that you need to solve, just apologize and move on. If it's sincere, great. If not, next time.
    good advice, but not always that simple...
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  7. #17
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    So make it simple. People make things complicated by habit. It's good to train yourself out of that.

  8. #18
    Member Sailboat's Avatar
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    I still feel bad about things I have said or done to people years ago that hurt their feelings. I try to take that and learn a lesson from it so that I don't do it anymore. That probably also makes me feel like guilty.
    Pick up your crazy heart and give it one more try.

  9. #19
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    It's not a big deal, it's normal interaction. Instead of obsessing over it, here's what to do:

    What you need to do is "recover their status". But do it as soon as possible after the blunder.

    When you accidentally say something that offends someone, it's because you're knocking them down a peg in front of others. Well, in order to recover that person's dignity (which is necessary, otherwise they'll stay upset), you need to carefully slip in some kind of genuine-sounding compliment of magnitude equal to that of the blunder. To bring them back up a peg.

    In front of the same people, soon after but not immediately after. Don't make it obvious that you're just trying to "make up" for what you said before. That'll just make things worse. Like you're just kissing ass or you're taking pity.

    Anyway, this will mean that the person has "replenished" their dignity and now you can move on in life without a problem.

    But don't screw up and resort to this too often. you'll look bipolar.

    But it's what I do - and I still have tons of friends.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    What's worse is when you slip and say something cutting that you really did mean.

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