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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Marm, I was wondering if you could flesh out a bit what you thought unhealthy Fi looked like. I guess until recently, I'd never thought much about Fi running a muck.
    Well, I think unhealthy Fi can act too "authentically" without thinking of other people when it's out of control...like if someone has emotional problems, other psychological issues, time of extreme stress, etc....let's call it Hurt Fi, because I tend to think of unhealthy feeling functions as injured or hurting....Hurt Fi will act from the core of the person in an intense, passionate, profound way (which is frequently the nature of even the healthiest Fi) in a more defensive, angry, or jealous manner. I think Fi can want to be 'special' and form very particular attachments, which may be what is being carried too far in this situation between MDP and her friend/ex-gf.

    I think Fi can rationalize "being genuine" or behaving inappropriately if they feel there is sufficient just cause for the way they are feeling, and if the feelings are overwhelming enough.

    My sister has these issues, but I've never had reason to suspect that she has Fe rather than Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, I think unhealthy Fi can act too "authentically" without thinking of other people when it's out of control...like if someone has emotional problems, other psychological issues, time of extreme stress, etc....let's call it Hurt Fi, because I tend to think of unhealthy feeling functions as injured or hurting....Hurt Fi will act from the core of the person in an intense, passionate, profound way (which is frequently the nature of even the healthiest Fi) in a more defensive, angry, or jealous manner. I think Fi can want to be 'special' and form very particular attachments, which may be what is being carried too far in this situation between MDP and her friend/ex-gf.

    I think Fi can rationalize "being genuine" or behaving inappropriately if they feel there is sufficient just cause for the way they are feeling, and if the feelings are overwhelming enough.

    My sister has these issues, but I've never had reason to suspect that she has Fe rather than%
    This is very interesting and I'll have to think about this a bit. I think you've really got something here. Very good insight. Thank you for answering my question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, I think unhealthy Fi can act too "authentically" without thinking of other people when it's out of control...like if someone has emotional problems, other psychological issues, time of extreme stress, etc....let's call it Hurt Fi, because I tend to think of unhealthy feeling functions as injured or hurting....Hurt Fi will act from the core of the person in an intense, passionate, profound way (which is frequently the nature of even the healthiest Fi) in a more defensive, angry, or jealous manner. I think Fi can want to be 'special' and form very particular attachments, which may be what is being carried too far in this situation between MDP and her friend/ex-gf.

    I think Fi can rationalize "being genuine" or behaving inappropriately if they feel there is sufficient just cause for the way they are feeling, and if the feelings are overwhelming enough.
    +1

    if i may add onto this, I see it as being unable to cope with negative emotions and acting accordingly..whatever it takes. If it makes the pain stop, it can be seen as justified. I can see this being especially applicable if alcohol has been involved, such as the situation when MDPs friend pushed another friend away when they were dancing.

    I think some might see this as being dramatic or exaggerating, but i describe it more as "over-feeling" because on the inside that's what it feels like, ime; a big flow of negative feelings. and without anything else to keep it in check i can see Fi manifesting itself in ways that do NOT take anyone else into consideration simply because it is too overwhelming to focus on anything else.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    +1

    if i may add onto this, I see it as being unable to cope with negative emotions and acting accordingly..whatever it takes. If it makes the pain stop, it can be seen as justified. I can see this being especially applicable if alcohol has been involved, such as the situation when MDPs friend pushed another friend away when they were dancing.

    I think some might see this as being dramatic or exaggerating, but i describe it more as "over-feeling" because on the inside that's what it feels like, ime; a big flow of negative feelings. and without anything else to keep it in check i can see Fi manifesting itself in ways that do NOT take anyone else into consideration simply because it is too overwhelming to focus on anything else.
    Whew! I need to smoke a cigarette... and I don't smoke. What you and Marm wrote is very insightful. I genuflect in both of your general directions.

    It's going to take me a little time to figure out how I might have unwittingly stepped into this Fi rabbit hole.

    But I can tell you right now this explains a very perplexing and hurtful situation I had with an ENFP who I considered a good friend.

    Her husband asked her for a divorce and out of nowhere she started running Fi a muck. She was lashing out at people, over indulging in alcohol, not taking other people's feelings into account... Basically, she became a one woman train wreck which absolutely shocked me.

    God knows ENFPs aren't perfect, but before this incident, I'd never met one who had so deliberately and recklessly lashed out at her friends and loved ones... which is the antithesis of ENFP-ness in my experience. She even lashed out at me... who had done absolutely NOTHING to her. I was just an innocent bystander caught in the fray of her Fi meltdown I guess. I think this was Fi run a muck.

    New insights. My Ne is going to be percolating all night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Her husband asked her for a divorce and out of nowhere she started running Fi a muck. She was lashing out at people, over indulging in alcohol, not taking other people's feelings into account... Basically, she became a one woman train wreck which absolutely shocked me.

    God knows ENFPs aren't perfect, but before this incident, I'd never met one who had so deliberately and recklessly lashed out at her friends and loved ones... which is the antithesis of ENFP-ness in my experience. She even lashed out at me... who had done absolutely NOTHING to her. I was just an innocent bystander caught in the fray of her Fi meltdown I guess. I think this was Fi run a muck.
    I would think of this as hitting the Ne "bell" really, really hard. I have only had this happen once, but it causes rapid oscillations in judgment between Fi and Te and lashing out upon the initial insulting pain. A wee bit emo. I guess this could happen in waves if the pain is more discontinous in nature. I dont personally recognize lashing out indisciminantely but do recognize incineration of selected targets.

    Marm...I have thought a lot on the lashing out in pain and the way it displays, given enfps are somewhat well known for our tempers....could this be a Jungian complex emerging from the psyche, which would be a combination of the worst aspects of our shadow functions...particularly Fe and Ti being used in very, very negative ways.

    A complex will be an aspect of the subconscious/shadow displacing the ego when the ego is under great stress or pain. Afterwords, the common feeling is one of not really being yourself while this happens. Of being "beside yourself". Afterwords it is accompanied by a sense of deep regret typically.

    I can see bad Fi as being the seat of many of the whiny and clingy behaviors...but lashing out to hurt others seems something else. The cutting precision employed when we lash out...that seems real bad Ti-ish to me...I dunno...

    I am going to go to Atlanta and kick sim's ass. Just saying.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I don't personally recognize lashing out indiscriminately but do recognize incineration of selected targets.
    Orobas... I laughed aloud when I read this. Ha ha! Yeah... I've done that, too. In my inner dialogue, I've always called this karmic re-balancing. I don't do it very often. But when I do.... well, at the very least, I sincerely believe my target richly deserves it.

    I don't think I've ever lashed out indiscriminately either. This doesn't seem very ENFP, unless they are perhaps in the throws of an Fi meltdown.

    But Fi is tricky. Seems to me that the sticky wicket of Fi is that you wouldn't do something that at the moment didn't feel like it was the right thing to do. But will further reflection, or more information, or candy to offset that low blood sugar irritability make you see things in a different light later?

    Last time I did a little karmic re-balancing, I sat on my knowledge of the offending party's transgression for two months. I deliberately gave myself time to process it, get some distance on it so I could think about it logically, I carefully considered the social fallout of my confronting him / pointing out his transgression, and then WHAP! He never saw it coming. (But he did richly deserve it. )

    But I always think of how fraught with peril it is to presume to make moral judgments about other people's behavior. It's a dangerous game that can lead one down the path of personal ruination... or at least this was my takeaway from Thus Spoke Zarathustra and my study of Nietschze's concept of the Übermensch. Does Fi give us the right to cast our judgment on others? Seems like a gray area to me. So I try to tread lightly and err on the side of not judging others unless I have to.

    But leaving one's judgment hanging open to long is fraught with peril, too. Being discriminating is not the same as being judgmental. I feel like one of the things that ENFPs have to struggle with is a lack of discernment.

    ENFPs are very accepting people who are open to new ideas and people from all walks of life. But if they accept people and ideas without question, they become a big Bundt-cake shaped pile of jello. Sometimes ENFPs need to remember to take a stand. Draw a line in the sand. Cross a Rubicon. Yeah, you may be able to see all the nuances of Pol Pot’s career, including how he once was a nice guy before he wound up a mass murdering dictator. But that doesn’t change the fact that he was still an asshole.
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    Upon further thought, there might be a whole Fi-Si loop contributing as well; i know that's typically considered an INFP thing but considering that ENFPs have the same functions in different orders i don't think it'd be too out there to suggest that if romantic feelings are involved, and i think they could be, they are feeding an Fi-Si loop.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    But I always think of how fraught with peril it is to presume to make moral judgments about other people's behavior. It's a dangerous game that can lead one down the path of personal ruination... or at least this was my takeaway from Thus Spoke Zarathustra and my study of Nietschze's concept of the Übermensch. Does Fi give us the right to cast our judgment on others? Seems like a gray area to me. So I try to tread lightly and err on the side of not judging others unless I have to.

    But leaving one's judgment hanging open to long is fraught with peril, too. Being discriminating is not the same as being judgmental. I feel like one of the things that ENFPs have to struggle with is a lack of discernment.

    ENFPs are very accepting people who are open to new ideas and people from all walks of life. But if they accept people and ideas without question, they become a big Bundt-cake shaped pile of jello. Sometimes ENFPs need to remember to take a stand. Draw a line in the sand. Cross a Rubicon. Yeah, you may be able to see all the nuances of Pol Pot’s career, including how he once was a nice guy before he wound up a mass murdering dictator. But that doesn’t change the fact that he was still an asshole.
    I leave Fi judgments about others open way too long..I accept anybody and typically will use Te boundaries to establish who I trust and who I do not trust. I just do not feel comfortable using Fi on other people around me unless they are overtly hurting another person. I can Ne see way, way too many reasons why they may behave the way they do, thus really cant judge them as morally flawed given i understand the imperfections in the definition of humanity. On myself I use TONS of Fi though internally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Orobas... I laughed aloud when I read this. Ha ha! Yeah... I've done that, too. In my inner dialogue, I've always called this karmic re-balancing. I don't do it very often. But when I do.... well, at the very least, I sincerely believe my target richly deserves it.

    I don't think I've ever lashed out indiscriminately either. This doesn't seem very ENFP, unless they are perhaps in the throws of an Fi meltdown.

    But Fi is tricky. Seems to me that the sticky wicket of Fi is that you wouldn't do something that at the moment didn't feel like it was the right thing to do. But will further reflection, or more information, or candy to offset that low blood sugar irritability make you see things in a different light later?
    So I see a couple cases possible...

    I have seen bitchy ENFPs-where we are trying to use Te to control our surroundings, but it takes a ton of energy, thus we can get irritable. I totally do this at times and my enfp teen and I do it to each other all the time. We drive each other crazy.

    I have seen ENFPs talk about establishing Te boundaries. I actually do this all the time. It is how I prefer to settle disagreements..using logic and removing emotions if possible, but sometimes it is a reiteration of the emotions that resulted in the situation. "you did this, I did that, then you did this..." sorta thing...

    I have seen ENFP Fi emo-puke-plosions. This is where we are in pain and someone has passed our Te boundary-we vomit back all the Fi pain at them. It is REALLY messy. I have done this three times in my life.

    I have seen ENFP rage. This is the incineration I spoke of. I have done this once after going through Te boundary setting, Fi puking and still getting poked and pushed, albeit unintentionally by the offender. It was brutal. Pure incineration. However-this is the lashing out I see some ENFPs, like your friend get stuck in. It is very unproductive.

    You seem to be describing something much more long term based on lots of historical Fi data...Was it simply drawing boundaries in a calm way or did you really incinerate with an emotional tone?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Marm...I have thought a lot on the lashing out in pain and the way it displays, given enfps are somewhat well known for our tempers....could this be a Jungian complex emerging from the psyche, which would be a combination of the worst aspects of our shadow functions...particularly Fe and Ti being used in very, very negative ways.

    A complex will be an aspect of the subconscious/shadow displacing the ego when the ego is under great stress or pain. Afterwords, the common feeling is one of not really being yourself while this happens. Of being "beside yourself". Afterwords it is accompanied by a sense of deep regret typically.
    I totally relate to all of this: the not being myself, feeling like I've violated my own values, etc. "Inflicting myself on other people" that kind of thing.

    On the other hand, I know that emotional release is necessary and catharctic for me...and that's more positive if I do that in private without it affecting other people. I have those rare but huge shadow Ni breakthroughs sometimes when this happens.

    Also, sometimes I think people deserve my vengeance...there have been times I've re-thought that, of course, and I'm not as inclined to it as I was when I was younger...but I still think confrontation is necessary in some places. So is that really Fe/Ti shadow, or still a function of my Fi value judgements?

    I can see bad Fi as being the seat of many of the whiny and clingy behaviors...but lashing out to hurt others seems something else. The cutting precision employed when we lash out...that seems real bad Ti-ish to me...I dunno...
    Yeah I do have a more calculated, precise, focused nastiness and I would say that's definitely Fe/Ti shadow. But that's not the same thing as the big meltdown or defensive reactivity.

    I am going to go to Atlanta and kick sim's ass. Just saying.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    On the other hand, I know that emotional release is necessary and catharctic for me...and that's more positive if I do that in private without it affecting other people. I have those rare but huge shadow Ni breakthroughs sometimes when this happens.

    Also, sometimes I think people deserve my vengeance...there have been times I've re-thought that, of course, and I'm not as inclined to it as I was when I was younger...but I still think confrontation is necessary in some places. So is that really Fe/Ti shadow, or still a function of my Fi value judgements?
    Actually I think I need to learn how to have emotional breakdowns..instead I do a neat INTJ trick of just using Te to shut off emo totally. But yeah if I feel really emo, i will detach and find a quiet Ni style place to process. But I need to let myself feel this pain more often so I can learn how to work through it. Practice makes perfect

    your planned vengance sounds like what Esoteric described...I just havent seen it in myself yet...I am so wary of passing Fi judgements as I just dont trust them to be used on others. So I guess by default I never reach the point of seeking vengence due to self questioning. But you know...if someone hurt my kid or was hurting someone in front of me...I could see that resulting in planned vengence. It seems Fi motivated but Te driven?

    Is thjis vengence the same as the meltdowns you mention below?

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah I do have a more calculated, precise, focused nastiness and I would say that's definitely Fe/Ti shadow. But that's not the same thing as the big meltdown or defensive reactivity.
    defensive reactivity is totally Fi being extroverted as emo-vomit or defensive Fi....but once pushed past that I recall lots of comments about incineration in a defensive meltdown... and how as it is happening it feels like verything internal is being refoucsed into a precise explosion to inflict maximum harm....not that I know much about that..... but that seems like Ti finding weak points...???

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