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  1. #111
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    It sounds like two things. One, she still have feelings for you. But, what's more important to her than those feelings is her need to be loved/adored by you/and maybe others too because she has low self-esteem/needs validation/attention/etc. Seems like you either talk it out with her or just break off contact and not deal with the mess. If you care about her, you may want to make her feel better, coddle her a bit. But if you don't care, you should just leave it behind you and let her figure it out all by herself. I don't think it's a matter of being in love as much as wanting to re-possess you in an unhealthy, self-validating, completely selfish way.



    I agree.
    This is very good and quite a sophisticated interpretation...I would just refrain from "breaking contact" if you care deeply for the enfp. We need very direct feedback and actually treasure it as it allows us to learn and modify our behaviors-without that info we know something went wrong...just not what-thus we are at loss.

    When my ex ISTP left me...I had been very, very ill for two months. He had tried to help but the physicians could not understand what was wrong with me. He started saying things like "It's too bad our marriage is over..." but would say no more. Then he got on a plane and left.... He came back later but I never understood what the root problem was and I asked him to leave.

    Cutting us off gives no sense of closure, no understanding of what went wrong. We learn quickly to cut others off prematurely if we sense that the other will cut us off. This is VERY unhealthy enfp behavior, but I have done it once or twice. Typically I am just exceptionally careful about who I allow in. Direct, forceful, honest feedback is often the very best tool if we seem oblivious.

  2. #112
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah, actually what she does actually does make her pretty self-centered and immature.

    And frankly, it personally disgusts me. Like, I'm thinking if I was with a male who did that to me or one of my friends I'd really think he was a creep...soooo.....it applies equally to women.
    i get what you're saying. but... two things here -

    one, they were in a relationship for a while. i think that means things have to be handled differently. if they had never been in a relationship, i might get the "creep" vibe too. but if i understand the situation correctly, it was a mutually open relationship, and that makes things less black and white to me also.

    two, even if it does disgust another ENFP, what good is that going to do in this situation? i just don't see it as being useful, much less kind, to be judging her that way, because we've only seen the issue from one perspective - and especially since she is MDP's close friend. we can only interpret the limited amount of information we've heard, which is only part of the picture and the negative part of the picture at that. and i just don't see there being much value in calling her behavior disgusting and writing her off as creepy. it won't result in behavior change, understanding, or closure. it might "get rid" of the problem, but it won't fix anything.

    anyway, i very much am in agreement with Orobas here - i think talking to her and being up front but supportive is the best chance for MDP to fully understand what's going on, and to resolve things with her friend, regardless of how she chooses to handle it once she knows what's going on.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    I cut off my ISTP. I realize I am insecure and I know that it'd break me if he finds someone else to fall in love you because he can't with me. I can't deal with that right now. He said he wanted to be friends, that he loves me, his calmness and rationale is amazing, but I pretty much told him to fuck off, though in diplomatic words. I am caught between wanting to build a friendship or to retain my boundaries. This all reminds me of it.

    MD's attitude despite her hurt feelings/failed relationship is very interesting to observe. I always try to be the bigger person, but I am never that calm/rational.

  4. #114
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah, actually what she does actually does make her pretty self-centered and immature.

    And frankly, it personally disgusts me. Like, I'm thinking if I was with a male who did that to me or one of my friends I'd really think he was a creep...soooo.....it applies equally to women.
    Marm has an excellent point. I'm guilty of this too, but seriously, if a man did this stuff, we'd burn him in effigy and not think a thing about it.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i get what you're saying. but... two things here -

    one, they were in a relationship for a while. i think that means things have to be handled differently. if they had never been in a relationship, i might get the "creep" vibe too. but if i understand the situation correctly, it was a mutually open relationship, and that makes things less black and white to me also.
    Well, not to me, because I know polygamists who have ethics about what they do, you know. They still care for and respect their partner even if they have mulitple partners. The issue is not the open relationship but the flagrant disrespect that hurt MDP apparently, and now this woman wants to act jealous after she did that to MDP? That's pretty self-absorbed.

    two, even if it does disgust another ENFP, what good is that going to do in this situation? i just don't see it as being useful, much less kind, to be judging her that way, because we've only seen the issue from one perspective - and especially since she is MDP's close friend. we can only interpret the limited amount of information we've heard, which is only part of the picture and the negative part of the picture at that. and i just don't see there being much value in calling her behavior disgusting and writing her off as creepy. it won't result in behavior change, understanding, or closure. it might "get rid" of the problem, but it won't fix anything.

    anyway, i very much am in agreement with Orobas here - i think talking to her and being up front but supportive is the best chance for MDP to fully understand what's going on, and to resolve things with her friend, regardless of how she chooses to handle it once she knows what's going on.

    I'm really, really disgusted by this sort of thing...it's one of my Fi values, which is why I threw in the word "personally" when I originally made that statement. I have pretty concrete values. I don't know if it's because I'm a 4, and many other ENFPs are 7s, or if it's Te or what, but yeah I have pretty strong judgements about *certain things.* I'm open minded, but I'm not that open minded.

  6. #116
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, not to me, because I know polygamists who have ethics about what they do, you know. They still care for and respect their partner even if they have mulitple partners. The issue is not the open relationship but the flagrant disrespect that hurt MDP apparently, and now this woman wants to act jealous after she did that to MDP? That's pretty self-absorbed.
    sigh. i don't mean that people who are in open or multiple-partner or polygamous or whatever other kind of relationships don't have ethics. i just mean it makes things more complex.

    i don't disagree that it seems cruel and self-absorbed. it's obvious that she disrespected MDP to a great degree. but was it all just for the sake of cruelty? i doubt it. Fi dom/aux don't generally fuck around with people just to fuck around with people. we are way more likely to fuck around with people to protect ourselves.

    that's all i really have to say about it. i don't see our personal judgments being useful here in understanding her behavior. maybe the easiest thing would just be to tell her that her behavior isn't okay and ending any relationship. but i don't know if that's what MDP wants.

    i think this is why sometimes i understand ENTPs better

  7. #117
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post

    So I would say to you, MDP2525, that you should control the only thing you can, which is yourself. In other words, set good boundaries with her and don't take any of her crap.
    I'm already pretty good at everything above except setting boundaries. It's difficult for me to do this in what I deem an offensive way (not to mean rudely but as in the opposite of defensive). It's much easier to react to an encroachment to my boundaries than say, tap someone on the shoulder and point to the line in the sand and remind them of it. It's much easier to avoid it or take myself out of the situation without expressing anything.

    And, don't doubt yourself so much... if you are doubting yourself. Listen to your emotional instincts. They seem to be telling you a lot...

    My ISTP is such an awesome, kind, and considerate person. But he has very little trust in his emotions. He's always analyzing them to see if he is "feeling" the correct thing. Sometimes he does this to the extent that he discounts his ability to make emotionally based decisions... to the point of out-of-balance insecurity.
    I can relate to that. My feelings are always filtered through logic first. When those are aligned it is very easy to express.

    It's hard to trust my feelings when it's a middle ground issue such as this. I vacillate between me just dealing with it because it would be less stressful that having a discussion about this. Another thing is I don't even know how I feel about it deep down. Do I care? The answer wavers depending on the mood I'm in. I'm constantly trying to nail down an emotion before it passes because it usually does. I think this is why we don't trust our feelings all that much unless it's an extreme situation where our logic and emotions align because then it's solidified.
    [QUOTE]

    I don't know if this dynamic is going on with you, but I encourage you to have faith in your feelings (good or bad) about people. Trust your intuition about this girl and whether or not her behavior is OK...
    I'm am trying to work on this. It may not seem hard for you guys. You seem to know how you feel about things so definitely. It's something I've always admired about ENFx's because I think so differently. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I'm betting the ISTP is going :rolli: by now

    Makes you wonder why they put up with us
    haha...maybe a time or two but I truly enjoy reading these posts. You all are very articulate and insightful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    It sounds like two things. One, she still have feelings for you. But, what's more important to her than those feelings is her need to be loved/adored by you/and maybe others too because she has low self-esteem/needs validation/attention/etc. Seems like you either talk it out with her or just break off contact and not deal with the mess. If you care about her, you may want to make her feel better, coddle her a bit. But if you don't care (enough), you should just leave it behind you and let her figure it out all by herself. I don't think it's a matter of being in love as much as wanting to re-possess you in an unhealthy, self-validating, completely selfish way.
    This is exactly what my gut feeling is but I don't think I could have said it as well. Oh. I'm not one for coddling. So if she is having feelings of low self-esteem it feels like she's fishing for compliments and why is it my responsibility to make you feel good about yourself, you know? When she said that she didn't think she looked good enough the night of my birthday I rolled my eyes and told her she was talking nonsense. Are you saying a well placed compliment here would/could bring her back into a celebratory mood and not down on herself (and therefore fun)?

    Breaking contact is out of the question. She is a valuable friend to me. She's my travel buddy and is one of the only people I don't feel pressured to talk around and that's rare enough quality that I enjoy too much to give up.

    Oh. I also realize that she does have faults. She can be immature and selfish but who am I to judge? She seems to accept me the way I am. She'll make plans with me and I'll tell her I'll be there and then text her and say I'm not in the mood to hang or go out. I do this all the time and she never complains or badgers me about it. That just made me realize something. Maybe another reason why I find discussing this with her stressful is I would be putting myself in a position of a moral authority? IDK...just thought of that.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  8. #118
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I'm already pretty good at everything above except setting boundaries. It's difficult for me to do this in what I deem an offensive way (not to mean rudely but as in the opposite of defensive). It's much easier to react to an encroachment to my boundaries than say, tap someone on the shoulder and point to the line in the sand and remind them of it. It's much easier to avoid it or take myself out of the situation without expressing anything.



    I can relate to that. My feelings are always filtered through logic first. When those are aligned it is very easy to express.

    It's hard to trust my feelings when it's a middle ground issue such as this. I vacillate between me just dealing with it because it would be less stressful that having a discussion about this. Another thing is I don't even know how I feel about it deep down. Do I care? The answer wavers depending on the mood I'm in. I'm constantly trying to nail down an emotion before it passes because it usually does. I think this is why we don't trust our feelings all that much unless it's an extreme situation where our logic and emotions align because then it's solidified.


    I'm am trying to work on this. It may not seem hard for you guys. You seem to know how you feel about things so definitely. It's something I've always admired about ENFx's because I think so differently. Thanks.




    haha...maybe a time or two but I truly enjoy reading these posts. You all are very articulate and insightful.



    This is exactly what my gut feeling is but I don't think I could have said it as well. Oh. I'm not one for coddling. So if she is having feelings of low self-esteem it feels like she's fishing for compliments and why is it my responsibility to make you feel good about yourself, you know? When she said that she didn't think she looked good enough the night of my birthday I rolled my eyes and told her she was talking nonsense. Are you saying a well placed compliment here would/could bring her back into a celebratory mood and not down on herself (and therefore fun)?

    Breaking contact is out of the question. She is a valuable friend to me. She's my travel buddy and is one of the only people I don't feel pressured to talk around and that's rare enough quality that I enjoy too much to give up.

    Oh. I also realize that she does have faults. She can be immature and selfish but who am I to judge? She seems to accept me the way I am. She'll make plans with me and I'll tell her I'll be there and then text her and say I'm not in the mood to hang or go out. I do this all the time and she never complains or badgers me about it. That just made me realize something. Maybe another reason why I find discussing this with her stressful is I would be putting myself in a position of a moral authority? IDK...just thought of that.

    See, this right there is why we love you so much, seriously. You rock. It's awesome to not feel pressured for once and have someone understand that flightiness and those moodswings

    Look, I'm pretty sure that if you do this 'talk' in the right way, in a non-judgemental way, she'll be pouring out her heart and understanding where you're coming from. If you say: listen, I was wondering about this and this instance, and what made you do those things coz they seemed a bit odd to me, she might get a bit defensive at first (as she probably recalls them not as her finest moments), but I'm thinking that if you just reassure her that you wanna understand what motivated her, she'll gladly explain, and probably fess up to it and actually *tell* you why that is (if she's thought it through yet, otherwise you might get the first draft, be patient, it takes time to clean that up to something that makes sense ).

    And yes, I know, fishing for compliments is something that's annoying, but I've found myself doing it as well, and I have to keep myself in check when I'm having one of my low days or someone just dealt a blow to my ego. If you notice her being insecure and saying something like that, just smile and tell her she's being crazy, and, if you truly think she looks stunning, TELL HER. Nothing wrong with telling her honestly what you think (only if she does though, otherwise she'll be able to tell you're just paying lipservice!). Take it lightheartedly. If it keeps coming back, ignore it and pretend it didn't happen. Sometimes it's not enough and keeps the insecurity going (especially if it's deeprooted), but often it can take a small self-doubt away in a sec
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  9. #119
    Junior Member babpul's Avatar
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    I'm wondering if ENFP possessiveness is a thing, or if it's my boyf's thing. I'm just genuinely trying to understand him better.

    He's very warm, generous, encouraging, affectionate and a little zany. And I find it cute that he's so incredibly fascinated with himself and the multitude of things he pursues.

    But all the fun and sparkly bits screech to a halt when his jealousy/possessiveness comes out.

    I like to examine and analyze patterns from a very objective standpoint. Also, when he makes vast generalizations that are, at times, incorrect, I like to bring up personal experience to demonstrate that his declarations aren't always true.

    For example, he might say (and this sounds terrible, and I'm not sure if it makes it any better that it's 2 Asians discussing this topic): "Well, no offense, but everyone knows that all Vietnamese guys are short and unattractive. Their eyes are smaller and they just have more feminine frames."

    Immediately I respond, "That's not true completely. A guy I dated in college had really large eyes - a lot of people thought he even looked Filipino - and my first kiss was this super tall, really cute Vietnamese guy, back when I was 19. Also - "

    "Why would you SAY that?" he seethed. And even though I'm referring to guys I no longer am in contact with and met 10 years ago, he's still very angry that I would even mention men that I previously dated or was attracted to - even if I'm no longer attracted to them.

    Granted, before meeting him, I've been told that I'm naturally flirtatious around people -- both men and women -- but from my standpoint, I'm just being really friendly so that I can break the ice and get comfortable. I find that when I make people think and feel like I'm soft and sweet and ooey gooey, I have to worry less about talking points in conversations I'm not prepared for or having to sit through irritatingly painful small talk. I use this charm to establish a human connection, so that we can talk about interesting topics more immediately, instead of repeating boring, very forgettable conversations. "Wow, so you work in the legal industry. Interesting!" (Not really.)

    But this bothers him because he thinks I give men the wrong idea, so around men, I've reeled it in quite a bit. To be fair, I did have to deal with a lot of awkward situations wherein which guys thought that I was super totally into them when I just wanted to diffuse the awkwardness around meeting someone for the first time.

    Anyway, I met a mutual friend of his -- let's call him Raven -- who is in my boyf's industry. And I don't know about other people, but if I'm dating someone, I want all the important people in his life to like me as much as possible. I think it makes it easier so that we can focus on the relationship and not what other people think about it.

    We ran into him at a restaurant. He was already sitting down and enjoying his meal and we were seated across the way. My boyf goes to the bathroom as we're introduced. I'm talking to him, but I have to shout across the way. It's a little ridiculous and awkward. So I invite him to our table, no harm, since he's already almost done with his meal. And we talk a lot about food, because I find his knowledge really very fascinating.

    As a human being, I thought he was wonderful.

    My boyf comes back and we all end up eating together. And as we're leaving, Raven mentions something about having met my boyf during a time of a dry spell, of girls not finding him attractive. Immediately, I want to pump him up because he's, objectively, not a bad looking guy. Just Asian, and for some reason, Asian men in LA feel like non-Asian women don't find them attractive. A weird stigma a lot of them internalize. So I tell him, "No, you're totally attractive! You dress well, you're fit, you've got a good sense of style that's a little hip. Very, very marketable!" And I hug him goodbye and he kisses me on the cheek, which I guess was a little weird, but I thought maybe it was a European thing since he traveled a lot.

    My boyf first acted very normally.

    Then the next day over the phone said he was so angry at me that he can't even sleep at night. I asked him what was wrong and he totally lost his shit, raging on about how I was totally flirting with his friend in front of him. I've never heard the ENFP boyf raise his voice, so it was a little jarring and confusing. I thought I had done good, made a good impression on a friend who might help the boyf out by inviting him on a future project, but all he could focus on was that I'd charmed Raven and that Raven was "totally falling for" me. That he should not have kissed me on the cheek and that what I'd done was tantamount to cheating on him in front of him.

    Then we got down to the nitty gritty and he admits he's a "little "jealous and possessive. That he feels like he belongs to me and I belong to him, so since I belong to him, he doesn't like the thought of other men having fun with me.

    So I've been more self aware or conscious so that I don't have to worry about DEFCON 5 24/7 in social situations.

    But even small things like, I was at a friend's house with the boyf for a party. And there was this nerdy guy my friend's hubby was giving a little frat-bro sh*t to, about the hows and whys he was still single. I thought it was a little mean because the hubby was fit and attractive and Nerdy Guy was a little chubby and, well, nerdy-looking.

    So I kinda butt in a little and tell Nerdy Guy, "I think you could totally find a girl. Your hair's got style, nerdy dudes are really on trend now, don't listen to Hubby. Hubby is wrong and giving you way too much shit."

    My boyf hit the roof. When we got home he kept asking, "Why would you say that? It's so disrespectful to me."

    I'm flabbergasted.

    Basically he loves that when I extrovert (which happens once in a blue moon), I'm happy and sparkly and charming. But he wants me to be happy and sparkly and charming primarily for him, and maybe sometimes for some of my girl friends. But he doesn't want me to be my bubbly social personality with "people who don't matter" and certainly not for guys.

    So now I'm feeling a bit weird and awkward. I mean, I've been socially stunted for most of my life and I've finally found a schtick that works for me in public that helps me keep connections warm and memorable: cute, sparkly Asian girl who is equal parts ditz and sporadically eloquent. I hope this doesn't make me sound like a sociopath or overly calculating. It just stresses me out when there's so much small talk and unimportant subjects to chew through before a person feels comfortable with your getting to know them. I just want a shortcut.

    But my shortcut is making my boyf super livid. But I sincerely think that he's significantly more jealous and possessive than the norm because I'd never encountered this with relationships in the past. (I'm used to dating Thinking or Judging types.)

    IS ENFJ possessiveness/jealousy a thing? And how do I help soften it?

    Tricks I'm currently using:
    • * allowing a little more PDA at social events, like hand hand holding or putting my arm on his back, resting my head on his shoulder
    • telling him very often that I love him and that there is no one else out there for me
    • not rolling my eyes when he is getting super ooey gooey and lovey dovey with his declarations. It's not that I hate it, it's just something I don't know how to process/compute.
    • compliments? I'm finding he really responds super well to compliments. Compliments are his catnip. So sometimes I have to think hard and package it and save it for a rainy day.


    I just want more harmony at social events and for me to feel free to just be the sociable version of me. I don't like to go out much, so I like to really hit it out of the park the few times I do. Any advice?

  10. #120
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @babpul,

    Hi

    It sounds like he's very insecure. It's not reasonable to expect you to hold yourself back. I wonder if what bothers him most is seeing how you're normally not very effusive but you are in these situations, and that sets off his radar. ENFPs tend to react to external pattern changes, and that one's probably sending up a red flag for him. It sounds like you're usually just using overt warmth/friendliness as a tool to smooth social interaction, and/or to make others feel better, which is kind of you. He needs to understand that it doesn't have anything to do with your romantic feelings towards him, and that you interacting that way with others doesn't take away from your relationship with him. I think one thing to do would be to explain to him your reasons; the other, to ask him why he feels like he can't trust you around other men, and work on that together.

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