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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Actually I think I need to learn how to have emotional breakdowns..instead I do a neat INTJ trick of just using Te to shut off emo totally. But yeah if I feel really emo, i will detach and find a quiet Ni style place to process. But I need to let myself feel this pain more often so I can learn how to work through it. Practice makes perfect
    I was talking to a friend last night who said she wishes that when she broke up with her ex that she would have been capable of dramatic tears and deep expressions of emotion, rather than her natural response to quietly accept it, and then cry later alone and basically swallow her intense feelings of pain....so that he would understand how much she really loved him and how much it actually hurt her.

    I was like "wow, really? I've always wished I could be a little less dramatic emotionally, to accept things a little more rationally, but I'm just like ...um yeah..." Fi 'splosion, basically. I can cry for hours and not be able to stop. It's ridiculous.

    It was interesting to talk to someone who actually wishes she was more like me in that regard.

    your planned vengance sounds like what Esoteric described...I just havent seen it in myself yet...I am so wary of passing Fi judgements as I just dont trust them to be used on others. So I guess by default I never reach the point of seeking vengence due to self questioning. But you know...if someone hurt my kid or was hurting someone in front of me...I could see that resulting in planned vengence. It seems Fi motivated but Te driven?

    Is thjis vengence the same as the meltdowns you mention below?
    Vengeance is usually the result of a meltdown, but slightly more calculated and rationalized. It's still pretty damn Fi driven, because it usually means I've been crossed in some SERIOUS way or hurt deeply.



    defensive reactivity is totally Fi being extroverted as emo-vomit or defensive Fi....but once pushed past that I recall lots of comments about incineration in a defensive meltdown... and how as it is happening it feels like verything internal is being refoucsed into a precise explosion to inflict maximum harm....not that I know much about that..... but that seems like Ti finding weak points...???
    I am guilty of defensive, reactive Fi...which embarrasses me at times...but the stuff that I think is more Fe/Ti is like when I'm actually feeling calm, but intentionally pushing someone's buttons and trying to tear them down systematically and perfecting my verbal barbs because of an underlying hurt or anger.

  2. #92
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    You seem to be describing something much more long term based on lots of historical Fi data...Was it simply drawing boundaries in a calm way or did you really incinerate with an emotional tone?
    I sent him a letter in which I pointed out his transgressions. I tried to be kind but I was straightforward, too. I also told him that I believed in him and hoped he could use this as an opportunity to grow. And, I do believe in him and see such goodness in him... but that doesn't change that what he did was immature and hurtful. I'd like to think I used both Fi and Te here.

    Maybe I can explain it best by quoting a comment I made on the Dolphin Dive blog regarding the finer points of Fe and Fi (click here to read my comment in situ).
    Vicky Jo: I like very much what you wrote here. In fact, I love reading your thoughts on INFJ-ness. I’ve come to understand my ENFP-ness so much better by understanding my INFJ mirrors.

    Back to your question about this phrase:

    “introverted feeling also tends to ignore social limits regarding the communication of critical responses, to the point of appearing to depreciate others.”

    Maybe I can shed some light on this as an ENFP who has Fi as her auxilliary function and Fe as a shadow function. For me, Fi is about what is Right (with a capital R). It transcends social norms. Let me repeat this because this is the heart of the matter. Fi for me is about finding the essence of Rightness. This is the primordial Right that social norms grew out of, but they are only a reflection of the principles that I seek to guide my behavior.

    For example, about a year ago, an INFJ male in my acquaintance engaged in some behavior I found morally reprehensible. Fe, as I understand it, would have led me to respond in some manner in keeping with social norms. Perhaps I would have privately seethed but decided to not rock the boat by confronting him. But my Fi finds this a bit “little picture.” Afterall, my Fi is concerned with the underlying truths of those social norms. So in this respect, social norms are only a point of reference for me.

    After much reflection, I decided that a bigger moral issue was at stake than not rocking the boat. This gave me the self-assuredness to point out his transgressions to him… social norms be damned.

    I didn’t make this decision rashly. I knew there would be some serious social fallout from it. And, I knew that what I had to say would hurt and shock him. So how can I, who as an ENFP is so concerned with people liking me and making the people around me comfortable, do something that she knows is going to provoke antipathy and evoke much pain? I could do it because of my Fi. I tried to deliver my diatribe with as much kindness as possible, but I was very direct in pointing out his sins. I just HAD to do it because it was the Right thing to do.

    To an outside observer, it might have appeared I was trying to hurt this person or that I had no filters. But nothing could be farther from the truth. I truly care about this person and weighed my decision very carefully. I tried to make the most moral choice possible. And I guess I felt like social norms were rather limiting considering the bigger principle at stake.
    I guess that I would say what I did was mature Fi. If it had been rash, done in the hurt of the moment, or with the intent of incinerating him, that would have not been in keeping with my Fi values. (Though I've certainly not lived up to my values often enough.) It was more like, I had FINALLY had enough life experience to apply my Fi outside myself. And much to my surprise, this relatively new application of my Fi onto others has made me a stronger, better person.

    As far as only applying Fi on oneself, I think the ENFP Personal Growth article on thepersonalitypage.com said it very well:
    It’s very common for ENFPs to resist applying judgment until they feel they truly understand a person or situation. However, part of the understanding process includes using discernment to classify qualities. If the ENFP shuts judgment off entirely, he or she will not achieve their ultimate goal of understanding; rather they will jump from experience to experience in a purposeless fashion.
    I'm in my late thirties and I didn't start applying my Fi externally until I was about 35. I had the same trepidations that you expressed about seeing all the reasons someone might do something. I see those too... but let me tell you, honing my externalized Fi is one of the best things I've ever done to make me a happier and more balanced person.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Vengeance is usually the result of a meltdown, but slightly more calculated and rationalized. It's still pretty damn Fi driven, because it usually means I've been crossed in some SERIOUS way or hurt deeply.

    I am guilty of defensive, reactive Fi...which embarrasses me at times...but the stuff that I think is more Fe/Ti is like when I'm actually feeling calm, but intentionally pushing someone's buttons and trying to tear them down systematically and perfecting my verbal barbs because of an underlying hurt or anger.
    Ah-so maybe vengence is Fi driven/motivated...but what is being used to deliver the blow? Te would seem to be structured discussion and lists of complaints and requests for deliverables. Ti would be those cute little precise barbs, but perhaps deliverd in a raging tyrant of emo spew?

    Hey maybe we are using all four judging functions at once....Hahahahaha! Lordy, what a mess.

    Hehe, as for the barbs, oh how I wish I could do this sometimes....I think up things in my head and they reach my tongue....and so yearn to "deploy" but my Fi tapes my mouth shut and makes me walk away.....I just cant. The thing about it...if nobody else is held to my Fi standards and they will hurt me, why do i feel compelled to be held to my own Fi standards and not hurt them back? Somedays it feels a bit unfair honestly, but it is really deeply fixed...Unless I am with my ENTP and then we mutually shred each other and with cutting precision. No holding back. Its kinda brutal, but fun.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Ah-so maybe vengence is Fi driven/motivated...but what is being used to deliver the blow? Te would seem to be structured discussion and lists of complaints and requests for deliverables. Ti would be those cute little precise barbs, but perhaps deliverd in a raging tyrant of emo spew?
    I know the big meltdowns are Fi. BUT. I don't know which function makes me be more rational (like just being like okay this is what I feel, and this is why I behaved that way, and let's be reasonable, and tell me your side blah blah blah) and which function, on the other hand, it is that allows me to take a more passive-aggressive verbal vengeance in a similarly calm and seemingly rational state, that isn't really helping anything, though.

    One way of being rational is actually effective and "mature" ...the other one appears rational, but is actually still pretty fucking emo and childish.

    Hey maybe we are using all four judging functions at once....Hahahahaha! Lordy, what a mess.
    Ha! I guess anything is possible...

    Hehe, as for the barbs, oh how I wish I could do this sometimes....I think up things in my head and they reach my tongue....and so yearn to "deploy" but my Fi tapes my mouth shut and makes me walk away.....I just cant. The thing about it...if nobody else is held to my Fi standards and they will hurt me, why do i feel compelled to be held to my own Fi standards and not hurt them back? Somedays it feels a bit unfair honestly, but it is really deeply fixed...Unless I am with my ENTP and then we mutually shred each other and with cutting precision. No holding back. Its kinda brutal, but fun.
    I was raised by an exceedingly cunning verbally abusive Fe dom, so I learned her ways quite well, and at this point in my life I just accept that I internalized many of her methods. The difference with me though is that I tend to only employ it on people who I think deserve it or can "handle it"...i.e. like if someone starts shit, I'll finish it, that kind of thing OR if I have to regularly deal with someone who is verbally nasty I find I rarely have compunction, and even take pleasure, in giving it right back to them. My Fi isn't going to let me just verbally abuse random people for no reason at all, or to attack people who are weaker or smaller, that would just be sadistic and cruel, and my Fi doesn't swing that way. However, I'm trying to mature to a point where I even do it less with people who I feel "deserve it." It's hard for me to resist the verbal battles with people I know can handle it, but I'm in the middle of processing this behavior, so I have to get back to you on that.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I sent him a letter in which I pointed out his transgressions, but I also told him that I believed in him and hoped he could use this as an opportunity to grow. And, I do believe in him and see such goodness in him... but that doesn't change that what he did was immature and hurtful.

    Maybe I can explain it best by quoting a comment I made on the Dolphin Dive blog regarding the finer points of Fe and Fi

    I guess that I would say what I did was mature Fi. If it had been rash, done in the hurt of the moment, or with the intent of incinerating him, that would have not been in keeping with my Fi values. (Though I've certainly not lived up to my values often enough.) It was more like, I had FINALLY had enough life experience to apply my Fi outside myself. And much to my surprise, this relatively new application of my Fi onto others has made me a stronger, better person.


    I'm in my late thirties and I didn't start applying my Fi externally until I was about 35. I had the same trepidations that you expressed about seeing all the reasons someone might do something. I see those to... but let me tell you, honing my externalized Fi is one of the best things I've ever done to make me a happier and more balanced person.
    Ah, oh I have done that sort of thing a very few times. Most notably to an ENTP man last year who spent months flirting with me-when he had a girlfriend he had been living with for seven years. I explained that he was a good person and a clever person, and that I knew he loved his girlfriend but that I could not interact with him anymore. I explained that I cared deeply for him, but that by flirting with me and making offers, he was making me hurt his significant other and that i felt her pain, even though I had never met her. I told him I found that unacceptable so I could not be around him anymore and asked him not to email or text me outside of a professional interaction. It took several rounds of this, but he stopped eventually. He then proceeded to sleep with several other women I work with. My department appears to be a Dionysian fertility cult of some sort...

    I really liked your description of Fi above and how you decided to approach the situation. It very much showcases how Fi is processing and thinking over the event in question to identify the best way to proceed.

    I try and advise people to give ENFPs, especially younger ones time to go through that emo processing step and respect their request for space. Often I internally know I am being overreactive and just need to mull things over. Incineration is something above and beyond...when pushed emotionally way too far, way too fast and the results are not ideal or productive, just defensive I think, and regretted later.

  6. #96
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    ...he stopped eventually. He then proceeded to sleep with several other women I work with. My department appears to be a Dionysian fertility cult of some sort...
    Perhaps (based on other comments in other threads about your workplace) this is one of the natural byproducts of having the department run by a bunch of xNxPs. Maybe y'all need a couple of Js in charge to keep the troops in line.



    Oh and yeah... those ENTPs.... I have a couple of really good ENTP friends. But some of the male ENTPs I know are not above using their gift of the gab to bed any woman who strikes their fancy... be they in a committed relationship or not. Ugh! It's like they have all the risk taking I do, but not so much of a morality check on it.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  7. #97
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    ^^haha, i think it is the EXTPs who make for all the "fun".

    But I must defend the ENTP men, as the vast majority of them are really caring awesome folks and the are very devoted to their SOs. They may think, but dont seem to act upon what they think about. Those few leftover ones can be pretty naughty though. The ESTPs do love to party, but tend to be very faithful...this particular ENTP just causes a lot of trouble...

    And Marm, I totally hear you...perhaps I may let some of this stuff out while driving as I often get lectured by the 14 yo enfp about being nice. Now the 3 yo INTJ likes to lecture me about "that is a bad word mommy, dont say that word". hehehe...

    off to sleep I go....

  8. #98
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    I was talking to a friend last night who said she wishes that when she broke up with her ex that she would have been capable of dramatic tears and deep expressions of emotion, rather than her natural response to quietly accept it, and then cry later alone and basically swallow her intense feelings of pain....so that he would understand how much she really loved him and how much it actually hurt her.

    I was like "wow, really? I've always wished I could be a little less dramatic emotionally, to accept things a little more rationally, but I'm just like ...um yeah..." Fi 'splosion, basically. I can cry for hours and not be able to stop. It's ridiculous.

    It was interesting to talk to someone who actually wishes she was more like me in that regard.
    Sometimes I am the same way as your friend. I have this repulsion-rational need for emotional explosions. I am still trying to find a good balance. If it seems more efficient, I will do it. But most of the time, it's just not worth me losing my cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Sometimes I am the same way as your friend. I have this repulsion-rational need for emotional explosions. I am still trying to find a good balance. If it seems more efficient, I will do it. But most of the time, it's just not worth me losing my cool.
    She can't do it, though, even when she wants to. That's why she said she wishes she was more like me.

    I'm not cool when I'm in love. Nope. That's the source of the vast majority of my serious Fi explosions. The real ones. The meltdowns. Oh, and a couple of fights I got into with my biological mother. Yep.

  10. #100
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Thank you!!!!

    MDP, you erred in titling this thread ENFP possessiveness and jealousy with friendships

    Seriously.
    I figured the details would unravel throughout the thread naturally. *shrug*

    You and she had a romantic relationship, though it may seem/be platonic now, if this chick, is in fact an ENFP, she is VERY MUCH, a.) insecure and b.) still in love/infatuated with you.
    She doesn't show these signs consistently. That's why I'm confused.



    Is she a full blown lesbian?
    She's bisexual. Probably 75% girls 25% guys.

    Ouch, you " quickly cut it off when she crossed a known boundary of mine."

    That would suck, and I know from experience because, back in the day, my ISTP broke my heart TWICE, but the time he really crushed it was when he quickly cut me out of his life, it was like going 100 to 0 in a day's time. Awful, it took me a full year and some change to get over that, I wallowed, gah, don't wanna engage in an Fi-Si loop, right now, wow, he really fucked me up, and guess what, it was his fucking fault, and he knew it, deep deep deep deep down inside he knew it, he was experiencing a horrible depression at the time, and I think he couldn't be with me because he couldn't even be, if that makes sense, so in retrospect, I don't even blame him, though it hurt like hell
    .

    Okay. I'll give the back story on that. She was dating another girl at the same time that we were dating. I knew of this and it wasn't an issue. She invited me to go up to Georgia to visit her friends. I went. While up there and at a club I walked in on her making out with her friend. This is right after we were intimate. I felt extremely trapped and emotional. I've never felt that much emotion so quickly and an ENFP was the one who brought it out. It was scary and the closest I've come to feeling panic. I knew no one up there and was reliant on her and her friends for a place to stay. I tried but couldn't get an airline ticket back. Oh well.

    My thinking is this: I don't care that she was intimate or with anyone else. That was irrelevant. She could've been with 20 people. I'm of the school where no matter how many people you are dating/fucking the person you are with that night should be shown and treated with respect in that regard. So it was utter disrespect that she did that.

    I told her that night that I thought we should just be friends. I was at peace with that decision and let everything go and enjoyed the rest of the night and the next day of the trip. I went to bed that night. I'm half asleep and she comes into the bedroom and gets in bed with me. She tells me that she doesn't want to be "just friends" with me. I tell her we can make a go of it if she wants but if she does that again that's it and can she handle that? I told her I wasn't trying to change her and if she felt she couldn't respect that wish of mine then tell me now because I would be her friend no matter but if she did that again I wouldn't ever trust her. She told me she understood and could deal with that.

    Few weeks later she does the same thing I immediately stopped talking to her from that day. I didn't talk to her for about four months. I know she asked mutual friends about me and if I was still "mad" at her. Thing was, I was over it the moment I decided to drop contact with her. It was done. There was no anger. We met again about when there was a get together for a friend's birthday and connected that night as friends only and that's how it was.

    So you see I don't think she is all about me. Granted. That was before we knew each other the way we do now but you can see why I don't trust her on that level and I never will. We are great friends but if she wants anything more and is trying for it that will never happen.

    When she told me that it didn't work because I didn't like girls as much as guys (something she said even back when we first dated) I told her at the time I was open to whatever was going to happen and she was the one who seemed to have that specific issue. I reminded her of why it actually ended.

    That story happened during the first few months we knew each other. A lot of time has passed since then.

    *Slaps you across the fiz-ace and throws you into a cold shower, WAKE UP, MAN,

    Oy, ISTPs can be so dense regarding romantic affairs, it's cute, but annoying as hell.
    Agreed but even if she had a change of heart I would absolutely not believe it. I'm not sure what she could do that could prove she had a change of heart where I am concerned. So you see why I don't buy the love or "still has feelings" thing and in a way it's why I resent her "possessive" behavior with me when it presents itself.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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