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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default ENFP Te rationalization

    After a disagreement or emotional misunderstanding, I have seen myself and other ENFPs engage in a large amount of rationalization and dissection of what went wrong. I have seen Fe users comment that “I don’t want to hear all of the crap, just don’t do it again” or say “You are overthinking things.” I have also seen others more negatively imply we are justifying our actions via rationalization.

    I thought in light of onemoretime’s comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I remember a few months back when we talked about the "Fi-nudge" and how it hit me the wrong way. I'm now beginning to realize that this is the "Fe-nudge", and why it feels manipulative to you. In reality, this is often simply done to gently remind a person to think about someone other than themselves, and act accordingly. It doesn't feel manipulative, because the intended response to it is to go through a thought process of one's own that would inevitably lead to the conclusion that the "nudger" was trying to impart. If any negative reaction occurs, it's the frustration (in Freudian terms) of the id being smacked down by the superego - you know it's right, but you're mad that a.) you let yourself slip and get selfish and b.) that you don't get to satisfy that desire. You don't feel manipulated, though, because the other person's right, and was simply reminding you to think the whole thing through.

    However, if you're not prone to go through that thought process (you could see this as the Fe-Ti bridge), the only thing this would appeal to is the nature of one's relationship with that person, and the fear of the deterioration of that relationship. The use of fear to coerce is the very definition of manipulation, so I understand why you could see it that way.
    This was a useful contrast to what may be happening in an ENFP and why ENFPs do this sort of post disagreement dissection.

    When an ENFP has an intense emotional event occur, we have to figure out what went wrong so we do not repeat. We analyze the event with Te to map out what went wrong, how it went wrong and what we could have done differently. Since Te is extroverted we will do this aloud and will typically share with the person we hurt or were in disagreement with. This can be tainted with all sorts of emo, of course-the frame is Te, but the content could be all types of emo stuff-pure emotion, Fi judgements and other sorts of crap. It could all be wrong, pure BS, true rationalization of our incorrect response....

    We desire to have them respond in turn and correct our misunderstandings. A mutual Te-Te style discussion where we work out where the problem came from and each walk away having learned lessons about what not to repeat-with total forgiveness and no grudges held.

    (I like Uumlaus description of a Te-Te interaction as Quality Assurance. This makes a great deal of sense. I tell you my facts and seek for you to correct my errors.)

    However-in light one onemoretime’s comment…to a Ti-Fe user this extroverted rationalization may come across incorrectly. Fe rebukes seem to promote internal Ti rationalization…not external Te discussion. Thus the enfp discussion either is just annoying and seemingly not needed, appears as endless justification, or appears as over-rationalization.

    Problematically, without this externalized discussion….the issue never really feels resolved. How can I be certain that you will not do the same thing again in the future if we never establish what went wrong or right on this occurance? There is no sense of closure.

    So this is my take on the subject…..which of course could always be endlessly flawed (please refer to Te quality assurance above )

    So my questions-

    1) Do other ENFPs see this need for discussion in themselves? Have others seen this in ENFPs around them?

    2) If so, what does this look like from other perspectives? If I am interacting with an Fe/Ti person, how do I know they have learned from the encounter and trust they will not repeat what went wrong on their end? How can I more effectively have a post disagreement discussion that doesnt frustrate them? Should I just skip any discussions?

  2. #2
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    1) Do other ENFPs see this need for discussion in themselves? Have others seen this in ENFPs around them?

    If I could have changed this title to, "How my thought process works in situations like this" the OP wouldn't have changed at all. Except it'd say "I, my, me" instead of "ENFPs".

    2) If so, what does this look like from other perspectives? If I am interacting with an Fe/Ti person, how do I know they have learned from the encounter and trust they will not repeat what went wrong on their end? How can I more effectively have a post disagreement discussion that doesnt frustrate them? Should I just skip any discussions?

    I get the "overthinking" and "dramatic" responses a lot when I'm in this thought process. It always gets really negative to others that don't know me and how I operate. Honestly, I have no answer as to how to avoid it. It's the way I think, part of who I am. If I change it, it won't be accurate anymore. Although, honestly, I also get this negative assumption that people want to string-out situations or drama by not acknowledging every aspect of the situation and getting things resolved then and now.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I get the "overthinking" and "dramatic" responses a lot when I'm in this thought process. It always gets really negative to others that don't know me and how I operate. Honestly, I have no answer as to how to avoid it. It's the way I think, part of who I am. If I change it, it won't be accurate anymore. Although, honestly, I also get this negative assumption that people want to string-out situations or drama by not acknowledging every aspect of the situation and getting things resolved then and now.
    can you clarify this part? It sounds like you are saying they like to prolong the situation by not being straightforward. Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Funny...I actually have often thought this, now that you mention it.

    As for just us vs ENFPs at large...I dunno...Jeno said her ENFP was driving her insane with this, which combined with OMT's comments of the opposite behavior in Fe/Ti kinda pointed towards it being a theme. My mom does it too. I do it-mostly mentally-and I see it in the ENFPs I work with as well to some extent. Heck, both me and esoteric wench were doing it in the INFJ common issues thread.

    Interestingly it makes dating an INTJ the easiest, most rational thing in the world.

  4. #4
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I get the "overthinking" and "dramatic" responses a lot when I'm in this thought process. It always gets really negative to others that don't know me and how I operate. Honestly, I have no answer as to how to avoid it. It's the way I think, part of who I am. If I change it, it won't be accurate anymore. Although, honestly, I also get this negative assumption that people want to string-out situations or drama by not acknowledging every aspect of the situation and getting things resolved then and now.
    I get this a lot too....it also sometimes seems to people think that i am making excuses, or trying to get out of accepting responsibility for a misunderstanding or mistake. If i've apologized, accepted the consequences and done my part to correct whatever is wrong, how on earth is that trying to make excuses? I just want people to understand why I did what i did, what role they "played" (if any) and not go off whatever assumptions they might be thinking in their head, if they are. it just seems logical to me that common understanding of whatever happened = more efficiency in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Interestingly it makes dating an INTJ the easiest, most rational thing in the world.
    Agreed; i find that NTJs are really understanding of this process.
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  5. #5
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    After a disagreement or emotional misunderstanding, I have seen myself and other ENFPs engage in a large amount of rationalization and dissection of what went wrong. I have seen Fe users comment that “I don’t want to hear all of the crap, just don’t do it again” or say “You are overthinking things.” I have also seen others more negatively imply we are justifying our actions via rationalization.

    I thought in light of onemoretime’s comment:



    This was a useful contrast to what may be happening in an ENFP and why ENFPs do this sort of post disagreement dissection.

    When an ENFP has an intense emotional event occur, we have to figure out what went wrong so we do not repeat. We analyze the event with Te to map out what went wrong, how it went wrong and what we could have done differently. Since Te is extroverted we will do this aloud and will typically share with the person we hurt or were in disagreement with. This can be tainted with all sorts of emo, of course-the frame is Te, but the content could be all types of emo stuff-pure emotion, Fi judgements and other sorts of crap. It could all be wrong, pure BS, true rationalization of our incorrect response....

    We desire to have them respond in turn and correct our misunderstandings. A mutual Te-Te style discussion where we work out where the problem came from and each walk away having learned lessons about what not to repeat-with total forgiveness and no grudges held.

    (I like Uumlaus description of a Te-Te interaction as Quality Assurance. This makes a great deal of sense. I tell you my facts and seek for you to correct my errors.)

    However-in light one onemoretime’s comment…to a Ti-Fe user this extroverted rationalization may come across incorrectly. Fe rebukes seem to promote internal Ti rationalization…not external Te discussion. Thus the enfp discussion either is just annoying and seemingly not needed, appears as endless justification, or appears as over-rationalization.

    Problematically, without this externalized discussion….the issue never really feels resolved. How can I be certain that you will not do the same thing again in the future if we never establish what went wrong or right on this occurance? There is no sense of closure.

    So this is my take on the subject…..which of course could always be endlessly flawed (please refer to Te quality assurance above )

    So my questions-

    1) Do other ENFPs see this need for discussion in themselves? Have others seen this in ENFPs around them?

    2) If so, what does this look like from other perspectives? If I am interacting with an Fe/Ti person, how do I know they have learned from the encounter and trust they will not repeat what went wrong on their end? How can I more effectively have a post disagreement discussion that doesnt frustrate them? Should I just skip any discussions?
    Excellent post! I think EJCC (ESTJ) posted something like this, attributing it to being an E1, but I think this is a better explanation for it. After a misunderstanding the person she was talking to yelled at her for trying to keep justifying herself when she felt she was just thinking out loud. I think with Ti, we think to ourselves and then need to keep coming back and checking our conclusions with the people involved. Sometimes they see this as not letting go of something that they assumed was already dealt with.

  6. #6
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    1) Do other ENFPs see this need for discussion in themselves? Have others seen this in ENFPs around them?

    If I could have changed this title to, "How my thought process works in situations like this" the OP wouldn't have changed at all. Except it'd say "I, my, me" instead of "ENFPs".

    2) If so, what does this look like from other perspectives? If I am interacting with an Fe/Ti person, how do I know they have learned from the encounter and trust they will not repeat what went wrong on their end? How can I more effectively have a post disagreement discussion that doesnt frustrate them? Should I just skip any discussions?

    I get the "overthinking" and "dramatic" responses a lot when I'm in this thought process. It always gets really negative to others that don't know me and how I operate. Honestly, I have no answer as to how to avoid it. It's the way I think, part of who I am. If I change it, it won't be accurate anymore. Although, honestly, I also get this negative assumption that people want to string-out situations or drama by not acknowledging every aspect of the situation and getting things resolved then and now.

    I think the solution is do your thining aloud with someone else, then come to them and ask if the conclusions you have come to make sense. By then, they usually will be ready to discuss. They just think that your thinking aloud WAS your final conclusion and it sounds like you are justifying yourself to them. Also, they want to be able to offer what THEY think they did wrong and see if that makes sense, rather than have you tell them uninvited. Explain what happened, where you see it went off the tracks and what you see the solution could have been and it usually will open a better discussion.

  7. #7
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    can you clarify this part? It sounds like you are saying they like to prolong the situation by not being straightforward. Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Funny...I actually have often thought this, now that you mention it.

    As for just us vs ENFPs at large...I dunno...Jeno said her ENFP was driving her insane with this, which combined with OMT's comments of the opposite behavior in Fe/Ti kinda pointed towards it being a theme. My mom does it too. I do it-mostly mentally-and I see it in the ENFPs I work with as well to some extent. Heck, both me and esoteric wench were doing it in the INFJ common issues thread.

    Interestingly it makes dating an INTJ the easiest, most rational thing in the world.
    Sure. The same way that you're saying people accuse this thought process as being justifying.. to me, it's the opposite. I'm not justifying anything, I'm laying all the cards on the table. In the end, very few people are Joker-style chaotic. They don't do things for no damn good reason other than to fuck with people. To them, I'm justifying myself. To me, they're stringing things out longer by not laying everything out and talking the situation through detail by detail. You get to the root of a crime with details, not by glossing things over. The motivations behind something can be all the difference in a given situation. It makes the difference between the action being repeated or put to a stop right then and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think the solution is do your thining aloud with someone else, then come to them and ask if the conclusions you have come to make sense. By then, they usually will be ready to discuss. They just think that your thinking aloud WAS your final conclusion and it sounds like you are justifying yourself to them. Also, they want to be able to offer what THEY think they did wrong and see if that makes sense, rather than have you tell them uninvited. Explain what happened, where you see it went off the tracks and what you see the solution could have been and it usually will open a better discussion.
    I usually do this. I talk it through in my head, make sense of the situation as best as I can.. and then talk to someone else. Sometimes I cannot tell anyone of the situations, but usually they're not that serious.

    I guess that's as best as I can come up with it as well, but it sure does make for some drama. You have to 1. Find someone you trust. 2. That trustworthy person usually should know something about the situation or the other parties in play. and 3. Be competent enough to work the process through with you. Sometimes its hard to find all three criteria.
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  8. #8
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree, it sucks. The other alternative is to explain that sometimes you need to process out loud. As you are processing, you have not yet reached your final conclusion. At least with me, I would equate this to what I do with venting, except yours is kind of after the fact. I think if you explained this to the other person before starting, they might understand what you are doing better and not react.

  9. #9
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    I over-explain everything. But in emotional contexts, in relationships, I want people to understand why I behaved as I did - what my emotional motive originally was - even if I now realize my behavior would be unacceptable in the future. I also want to know other people's motives when they disappoint me so I can try to be more understanding of why they did what they did which hurt me. Simply correcting behavior "because I said so" seems pretty Te/Si if anything, i don't see that as being especially Fe.

  10. #10
    Junior Member Neo.bahamut.r's Avatar
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    Great timing! I'm having a huge disagreement right now with my ESTJ girlfriend and put simply, she thinks I'm overthinking the entire thing. She hurt me but the way I see it, I can think my way past the negative emotions, figure out what went wrong, do my best to have this ever happen again and stop feeling bad about it all.

    I do this any time I or anyone very close to me gets hurt. I get extremely uncomfortable when there is pain around so I have to fix it any way I can, because honestly, negative emotions suck. I just want to make the whole world feel good

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