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[ENFJ] Common ENFJ Issues

My Fe burns like a white-hot volcano deep inside my...


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Saslou

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Apologies for probing you on this .. Is it you that thinks it's an issue of codependency or have you been told this by another?

My upbringing wasn't great and pregnent at 15 .. I've been told (once) i was codependent, but now away from the situation, i realise a lot of projection was going on or i'm just an asshole that brings out the worst in people .. If i love someone then i want to spend time with them .. Thats not codependency, that's love but i may be wrong.

I'll check out the film though, out of interest .. Maybe i could learn something.
 

Sparrow

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Apologies for probing you on this .. Is it you that thinks it's an issue of codependency or have you been told this by another?

Hey lady :) its all good, I don’t think your probing me ;).

I think that codependency really is the issue, I pretty much diagnosed myself. He has had a lot of run in's with the law...drugs...past child hood issues, communication issues, etc. etc. I am always there to pick up the pieces, but it got to a point where it was just too much, I need to be cared for to you know! I’ve forgotten about myself and was way to focused on helping him. My own needs were not being met. We are taking a time out from each other for 2 weeks (as of yesterday) to think about everything and figure out what to do....our relationship is extremely turbulent right now and our fights are getting way more intense. Its not all his fault, I’ve been being very reactionary and demanding lately because of all of the resentments we have towards each other. I feel really needy right now :( It shouldn’t be that way. I used to be calm, confident, creative, and independent...I want to be that healthy me again, and I'm working on it ;)! :solidarity:

My upbringing wasn't great and pregnent at 15 .. I've been told (once) i was codependent, but now away from the situation, i realise a lot of projection was going on or i'm just an asshole that brings out the worst in people .. If I love someone then I want to spend time with them .. Thats not codependency, that's love but I may be wrong.

No its not wrong to want to spend time with someone, that is love :)! I dont know the whole story between you and your ex so its hard for me to say if your situation was a codependent one or not. Did he have a lot of issues, drugs, addictions, unresolved child hood issues, etc.? If you dont feel comfy talking about here please feel free to PM if you want to talk <3.

I'll check out the film though, out of interest .. Maybe i could learn something.

You should! Whenever you get around to it let me know what you think :).
 

Domino

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Last night, Jaye was talking to our mutual ENFJ friend, Taco. He's married to an INFP. He said that sometimes he gets positively giddy and drives her insane. Jaye told him that I went through about 5 or 6 emotional states in the course of a day, and that if I was giddy and making *her* insane, it was because I was agitated about some major issue(s) that I couldn't get rid of or get closure on.

I've learned that if I'm in a high state like that (usually it mascarades as good humor, only on speed...) it's because I haven't been able to rid myself of excess bad energy. I can get very physical and even pushy (in Taco's case, he said he got "hand-sy"). After a lot of thought, I realized it's my Se trying to right the ship, to push my environment (or the people in it) to create some kind of more tolerable change. I have to be pretty deeply disturbed or miserable to start pushing and pulling.

When I was a teenager, it showed up as acting out, putting my horns down, or picking fights with people I found antagonistic. I suppose it was a control issue. Provoking the other person to react to me gave me power over them, made *them* feel helpless, like "you wanna tussle? let's tussle". I had no idea until last night what an influence my tertiary Se had over how I get rid of stress.

Can other ENFJs relate?
 

Arclight

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Last night, Jaye was talking to our mutual ENFJ friend, Taco. He's married to an INFP. He said that sometimes he gets positively giddy and drives her insane. Jaye told him that I went through about 5 or 6 emotional states in the course of a day, and that if I was giddy and making *her* insane, it was because I was agitated about some major issue(s) that I couldn't get rid of or get closure on.

I've learned that if I'm in a high state like that (usually it mascarades as good humor, only on speed...) it's because I haven't been able to rid myself of excess bad energy. I can get very physical and even pushy (in Taco's case, he said he got "hand-sy"). After a lot of thought, I realized it's my Se trying to right the ship, to push my environment (or the people in it) to create some kind of more tolerable change. I have to be pretty deeply disturbed or miserable to start pushing and pulling.

When I was a teenager, it showed up as acting out, putting my horns down, or picking fights with people I found antagonistic. I suppose it was a control issue. Provoking the other person to react to me gave me power over them, made *them* feel helpless, like "you wanna tussle? let's tussle". I had no idea until last night what an influence my tertiary Se had over how I get rid of stress.

Can other ENFJs relate?
Can other ENFJs relate?
SO much so, my head is spinning..

When people at work tell me, "no way you are shy or introverted". (Don't be fooled by the E, I really am ;) )Its because they have no idea how nervous the whole place makes me and I am burning off that energy.This is also a defense mechanism to keep most people at bay. Most people enjoy the show, but keep their distance.. which suits me fine.

The scary thing is.. Your teenage reaction is still my reaction, and I am 41 .. ouch!

On other news.. Did this person's parents, really call their child Taco??
 

Domino

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Aye, it's still in me to react that way. I've just gotten a whole lot better at controlling it. :D
 

Saslou

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Hey lady :) its all good, I don’t think your probing me ;).

I think that codependency really is the issue, I pretty much diagnosed myself. He has had a lot of run in's with the law...drugs...past child hood issues, communication issues, etc. etc. I am always there to pick up the pieces, but it got to a point where it was just too much, I need to be cared for to you know! I’ve forgotten about myself and was way to focused on helping him. My own needs were not being met. We are taking a time out from each other for 2 weeks (as of yesterday) to think about everything and figure out what to do....our relationship is extremely turbulent right now and our fights are getting way more intense. Its not all his fault, I’ve been being very reactionary and demanding lately because of all of the resentments we have towards each other. I feel really needy right now :( It shouldn’t be that way. I used to be calm, confident, creative, and independent...I want to be that healthy me again, and I'm working on it ;)! :solidarity:

Have a :hug: I'm going to say it .. Discard it or use it, entirely up to you.
Firstly you are brave for admitting there is an issue, remember you are not your parents, let them make their mistakes and learn from it. You spent your life being conditioned, attaching labels to yourself and it's hard to admit we are not perfect, lol. Strip the layers away and ask 'who am i'? Bloody hard i found. Sometimes when we want the best for the people we love, we actually cause more pain because ultimately we can be there for the other, but they need to be there for themselves and i know it's cliche but the saying 'If you love them, let them go ...... It's true, it hurts like fucking hell but that person needs to be alone to heal. We can try with the best of intentions but when we put a band aid on anothers wound, even though completed in a loving and tender manner, it's their body who has to go through the motions to heal that wound.

I'm going to shut up now, lol.

You'll know what the right thing is to do .. Even if your head and heart differs in opinion :hug:

No its not wrong to want to spend time with someone, that is love :)! I dont know the whole story between you and your ex so its hard for me to say if your situation was a codependent one or not. Did he have a lot of issues, drugs, addictions, unresolved child hood issues, etc.? If you dont feel comfy talking about here please feel free to PM if you want to talk <3.

Thank you so much for the offer. It's done and in the past. I'm learning from it.

You should! Whenever you get around to it let me know what you think :).

It's in my favourites, i will get round to watching it eventually. Recommendation for you ;) Awareness by Anthony de Mello (Similar to E.Tolle's Power Of Now, but i felt it was humanised, also comical in places) I found this book to have a nice perspective on relationships for it mentions something on the lines of 'What's more important, your happiness or that of a relationship'. I originally chose relationship but later realised if i am not happy in myself, how the hell can i be happy in a relationship, i'm going to make the poor bugger miserable and myself at some point.

Anyway, that's it. I hope you find what you need to find in yourself. You seem like a strong woman :)
 

TopherRed

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My biggest problem? I get too stressed out over people, and how I appear to them. When my groups fall apart, when friends don't pay enough attention to me, when I feel so alone in the universe that nobody gets me...sometimes these things take up a great amount of my mental bandwidth. Worry. It's pointless. At least on an intellectual level I realize that. Getting to the point where I can chillax, and let the world fall apart around me. Who cares? I wasn't in control of any of those things to begin with.
 

bronson

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The constant 'how am I appearing to others?' question is a vain and exhausting obsession that will never die, even if I'd like it to.

I think we can be pretty confusing to friends/others due to the intermittent divergence into an Ni state. Most of the time we're so smooth and out there socially, the life of the party, friend to everyone etc - but that one odd day when all I can do is sit in my room alone philosophising or writing or something; people just don't seem to get it, they're like 'what's wrong with you, snap out of it!' But its like NO i need to have this sacred time let me be! (Anyone else get that?)

Definitely got some control issues, trying to let go - but yeah like I said, controlling my appearance/presentation is jus too automatic and unavoidable.

And controlling/maintaining social situations - well its just nice; who wants to let things get awkward or nasty? Not me
 

Adasta

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And controlling/maintaining social situations - well its just nice; who wants to let things get awkward or nasty? Not me

Spoken like a benevolent dictator! :D

The problem with this outlook is that it is inherently one-sided; things are "awkward" only when the ENFJ defines them as such. This is not a problem at all when things are going well. An example I used in another thread was the ENFJ hosting a party - ENFJs are adept at making sure everything is running smoothly. However, when something which the ENFJ considers disharmonious occurs, i.e. when something happens why may jeopardise whatever the ENFJ defines as "stable" in that context, such as the party's "atmosphere", one can be on the end of a tongue-lashing.

Difficulties also seem to arise regarding rules and procedure. ENFJs often seem to be right when they talk about rules and procedures: if we do x in good time, then we avoid y and z which is a good thing for everyone. You can't really argue with it, but it's all about how this viewpoint is implemented. To an INFP, ENFJs just seem to spend far too much time worrying over the minutiae of everyday life. The lack of flexibility can result in the very common "There is no other way but mine" stance, which is deeply unattractive in all senses of the word. Some examples of these concerns might be:

  • thinking about what to have for dinner before you've even had lunch
  • getting really annoyed if the cap is left off the toothpaste, or some of the block of cheese you grated was left out after dinner
  • buying more milk because you thought that, the other day, the milk looked like it could run out if someone used a lot so you bought another bottle just to be on the safe side even though it'll probably be okay
  • thinking about perhaps wanting to go on holiday 18 months from now, maybe, so...better start making a savings plan immediately, just in case
  • worrying that everyone else is having a better time than you are/is more successful than you are/has done more/better/cooler things than you have
  • not always perceiving that other people are taking you for a ride

This sort of thing can be good and bad from my INFP perspective.

It's great to have people around who think about these things! I'm a typical INFP and I am (literally) too busy thinking about abstract concepts to even attempt to remember that I have to feed myself from time to time, or go to the shops, or pick up that think that you told me about the other day but I forgot because I was too busy thinking about how I relate to the world.

I imagine ENFJs consider this pretty pointless because there is no perceptible application of these thoughts to life and, well, it's all a bit silly isn't it, all this book-reading and daydreaming? However, counterpointed against my INFPness, ENFJ "goodness" can quickly become ENFJ "badness" if "too much individuality" is on show. Being a flouncy, moody daydreamer with few concrete plans, my capricious nature can be the ENFJ's antithesis. I get the feeling that ENFJs would like to say "Can you just stop being so emotional about everything so that we can all have a lovely time?" The deeper message I perceive at times is something akin to: "Can you just stop being so emotional about everything because people associate you with me and if you're being all weird and moody people might link us together in their minds and that'll reflect badly on me!"

Frankly, I think ENFJs give other people too much credit. Then again, I'm terribly cynical. I think this is why INFP & ENFJ relationships, be they friendly or romantic, can be quite effective.
 

bronson

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The problem with this outlook is that it is inherently one-sided; things are "awkward" only when the ENFJ defines them as such.

Sure this is true, everybody's comfort level in each social situation is relative to that person and their social functions. However I would suggest the ENFJ as particularly sensative to the more implicit happenings in every social environment than other types and therefore we make the rules... joking! But, yes, perhaps we have concerns that others would never have noticed, and ultimately our mechanisms of social control may be selfishly motivated to appease our hyper-sensative comfort levels in each social situation.

To an INFP, ENFJs just seem to spend far too much time worrying over the minutiae of everyday life. The lack of flexibility can result in the very common "There is no other way but mine" stance, which is deeply unattractive in all senses of the word. Some examples of these concerns might be:

thinking about what to have for dinner before you've even had lunch
getting really annoyed if the cap is left off the toothpaste, or some of the block of cheese you grated was left out after dinner
buying more milk because you thought that, the other day, the milk looked like it could run out if someone used a lot so you bought another bottle just to be on the safe side even though it'll probably be okay
thinking about perhaps wanting to go on holiday 18 months from now, maybe, so...better start making a savings plan immediately, just in case
worrying that everyone else is having a better time than you are/is more successful than you are/has done more/better/cooler things than you have
not always perceiving that other people are taking you for a ride

This sort of thing can be good and bad from my INFP perspective.

It's great to have people around who think about these things!

Can't blame us for being a little anal retentive at times right?
I think that our busy-ness attending to all this supposedly ridiculous details really comes from a good place, which is our want for everybody (the whole variety of different types of people we come into contact with) to feel comfortable and attended to in every way. Its just unfortunate that we make you more lax guys feel uncomfortable in doing so ... what can ya do?

I'm a typical INFP and I am (literally) too busy thinking about abstract concepts to even attempt to remember that I have to feed myself from time to time, or go to the shops, or pick up that think that you told me about the other day but I forgot because I was too busy thinking about how I relate to the world.

I imagine ENFJs consider this pretty pointless because there is no perceptible application of these thoughts to life and, well, it's all a bit silly isn't it, all this book-reading and daydreaming? However, counterpointed against my INFPness, ENFJ "goodness" can quickly become ENFJ "badness" if "too much individuality" is on show. Being a flouncy, moody daydreamer with few concrete plans, my capricious nature can be the ENFJ's antithesis.

Hmm, not so sure about this. I spend a great deal of my time day-dreaming also; we ENFJ folk aren't quite as concrete and practical as you make out - I think you're looking for an ESFJ there.
I spend ridiculously long hours lost in philosophy, poetry and creative writing late into the night (such as right now - its 2am in Melbourne). But when I go back into my active life, with people all about me, there is less time for this much loved dreamy dillydallying.
Nevertheless, it seems the INFP's find us a little over-bearing by the sound of it? Well, this may be the case from your perspective, however, compared to a whole host of other types we're extremely diplomatic and polite, well I am, and when 'maintaining a social situation' I would very rarely subject anyone to a 'good tongue lashing' (maybe), but would be far more discreet in turning conversation etc.

Mannn sometimes I feel like such a fool talking about these things so overtly! Its great :)
 

Adasta

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Nevertheless, it seems the INFP's find us a little over-bearing by the sound of it? Well, this may be the case from your perspective, however, compared to a whole host of other types we're extremely diplomatic and polite, well I am, and when 'maintaining a social situation' I would very rarely subject anyone to a 'good tongue lashing' (maybe), but would be far more discreet in turning conversation etc.

You'd be hard pressed to appease an INFP at the best of times, so I wouldn't feel too downhearted about being "over-bearing". The truth is you're nowhere near the overbearing nature of the ST who's on his/her high horse!

I think the main point is a conflict not of interests but of application. No doubt ENFJ endeavours are for the "good" (probably a result of the NFness) but the structured/unstructured dichotomy is problematic. Just because someone is not "anal-retentive", as you put it, it doesn't mean they are messing things up for the rest of you. Like I said, I love people planning the nitty gritty aspects of life for me: I don't enjoy it, so I'm glad there are those who do. The difficulty lies in bridging the chasm between the macrocosmic world of the INFP and the microcosmic world of the ENFJ.

For you, flights of fantasy are reserved for moments where you can "indulge" in them and for the rest of the time you concentrate of practicalities and interacting with others. For me, it's the other way round. The majority of my day is taken up in constantly wondering about things, therefore pushing out time to consider useful/practical things. I think that, sometimes, my "inability" to compartmentalise in the same way as an ENFJ results in them branding me "difficult" or "moody". You may say to yourself that, because you can do both things, so should the INFP, so why can't he just get a grip and realise that following all these details is for the best!

Also remember that INFPs are typically very perceptive. While you ENFJs are "spinning plates" and pleasing/appeasing several others, we usually "see through it" and begin to demand that you treat us differently because we've been so clever as to notice that being diplomatic to everyone is more important to you than pampering us! This is, of course, not allowed :)
 

proteanmix

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For you, flights of fantasy are reserved for moments where you can "indulge" in them and for the rest of the time you concentrate of practicalities and interacting with others. For me, it's the other way round. The majority of my day is taken up in constantly wondering about things, therefore pushing out time to consider useful/practical things. I think that, sometimes, my "inability" to compartmentalise in the same way as an ENFJ results in them branding me "difficult" or "moody". You may say to yourself that, because you can do both things, so should the INFP, so why can't he just get a grip and realise that following all these details is for the best!

A few questions:
  • Define/describe what you consider a "flight of fancy."
  • Define/describe what you consider a "practicality."
If you knew me IRL you'd know that I have this really big thing about The Apocalypse and I'm absolutely convinced that it will be biological in nature and that society and civilization will collaspe and that scares the beejesus out of me. Talk about a lonely planet. I really should be a survivalist. I'm not because all the survivalist groups I've looked into are white nationalists and separatists and live in compounds in West Virginia. They live out in the hinterlands and I'm much more interested in surviving in a urban environment or city--what if I can't get out before they blow the bridges and block the interstates? Unfortunately, they're not very mulit-culti or accepting of others. WTF?! I want to live too!

Stay with me, this is connected (in my mind at least).

I'm really attracted to ideas and movies that have dystopian futures. I'm not talking about Big Brother, technological oppression where every breath you take is being monitored. I'm talking about there's nobody out there to rely upon to help because people are dead, there are dead bodies everywhere, no electricity, no safe drinking water, roving bands of people that will kill you because there is no law and order, and the thin veneer of civilization has been ripped violently apart.

But I also feel this strange anticipation for this event. It's not all Be Prepared, it's like wow I wonder if I'd survive (survive to what?), I wonder if I could be a conqueror. Or at least not regress to eating squirrels and possums. There's this undercurrent of anticipation, cuz shit's going to be interesting and I want to be there.

A few friends of mine indulge me rather deeply in this topic, and all of them(!) have said they want to die in the first wave. And I'm like why...don't you want to see if you live and what this new society will look like? On top of that, I have this delusion of grandeur that I will rise to become a leader in this new society (I make no claims of benevolence) and I'm already trying to rebuild society (some small town probably) but this time, it's going to be different.

OK, now here's the connection. While I think this is extreme, I don't at all believe improbable. But I realize it's a little crazy and that I could get really carried away with this. Right now, I have three boxes of medical supplies: saline, gauze, ABD pads, soft tape, splints, gloves, packages of sterilized tweezers and scissors, hospital quality bandages of varying absorbencies, a recipe for Dakin's solution to cleanse wounds. You know how some people have their trophy car and take it out for a spin on the weekends? I go and admire my little stockpile of medical supplies. I love those books that tell you what to do if you have to jump off a cliff or bridge into water (clench those butt checks). On my most recent bday, my friend got me a book on the many glorious uses of duct tape!

And then I find myself thinking about guys in terms of does he look like he could gut a deer without vomiting on himself? Can he scale a wall? This is pretty bad, I really have persistent thoughts like this.

This belief of mine tends to infiltrate my life. So for example, I'll be doing my budget and think "you know if you could save $500 a month you could probably buy a water purification system when the ELE happens." I get a little happy! Of course, I don't really do it...my money tends to go towards lavish dinners and alcohol. I tried though.

I gave this little glimpse into my mind because you never know what's fueling and motivating someone to behave in certain ways. All you see is the outward behavior. On a more realistic scale, maybe someone you see "excessively" worried or preoccupied with some "banality" of life was in a traumatic or difficult situation that has caused them to be the way they are. And what is excessive in this situation? Maybe the person is no where near being obsessive or excessive? My sister is an ISTP and some of her most frequent exclamations are "Who cares" and "What difference does it make?" If someone's default and most basic sense of importance is higher or lower than yours in a certain area, of course they're going to look excessive or deficient.

For me, having a sense of control and being able to walk freely in my sense of personal agency is of utmost importance. I work towards ends that increase my sense of control over my life. I'm sure these things look like worrying to people that have less of this need.

For the other matter, I'm not into guiding what's going on between people and how they're interacting. People tend to themselves and I'm not babysitting anyone. I have a small friend group and when I'm with a large group of people I tend to splinter off into a smaller group and those people tend to be the ones that I feel can hold their own. I don't look for the most lonely looking person in the room and feel some primordial pull towards them. Well unless they look like they want to integrate and are receptive to my efforts but if not, stay in the corner trying to drink and text at the same time. I guess I'm not into this image of ENFJs being hand-wringing worry warts, because I tend to concentrate my energies more in solutions than sitting around a clucking.
 

Domino

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This is a woman with an action plan. I'm no survivalist, but my drive to survive is extremely strong.

My sister frequently comments that if there's something placed in front of me that I don't know about or understand how it works, I dedicate myself to mastering it and bringing it under my dominion. She says that if I were presented with the space shuttle, I would be poking and prodding and pressing all the buttons saying "What does this do?" To me, everything is a potential. It can be used either for or against me, and knowledge brings it into MY domain rather than waiting for it to fall to others. There are obviously things beyond my scope, but for the greater majority of everyday situations and objects, I see clearly how being proficient enough to hold your own is important.

Formative, though it may be, I think in terms of action plan as well. I don't rest easy until I've at least given myself a practical direction to take - this coming from one of the world's most impractical people (you should see my clothes and know full well that I'd be the first to die in a nuclear winter *laughs*). My mind is constantly scanning my environment (I assume that's my Se at work) and drawing that information INTO myself (Ni). Maybe we do boil everything down into its essence and internalize, but not before picking it from the outer world first. An action plan without trustworthy data is useless to me - so it's more a matter of what I find to be trustworthy (which can be problematic if I'm not focused or am anxious). I recall forming a plan to save my family's house from foreclosure, not fully knowing what that would entail, and acting on it every day, and adapting as I went.
 

Sparrow

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I want to be on that show "The Colony"! That would be awesome, have you guys ever seen it? Its about a bunch of strangers with different personality types and skills living together in a post apocalyptic world...pretty cool show :). Its on the discovery channel.
 

Domino

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Are we ALL post-apocalyptic rulers of the universe?! That's awesome! lol
 

MacGuffin

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ENFJs are too hot for their own good.
 

Domino

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ENFJs are too hot for their own good.

oveglove-1.jpg
 

Domino

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*puts you on the short list for post-Apocalyptic elimination*
 

MacGuffin

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I'll be in my bunker.
 
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