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[NF] Empathy vs. Sympathy

Thalassa

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I use both A LOT. I feel for people but I detach from them when they are emotionally draining and we aren't close. Other times, I internalize people's emotions as my own but I still tend to detach if it's too much and can come off cold, uncaring, and very solution oriented. For me, it's about self-protection.

The funny thing about what the ENFPs were saying about pity is that on the other side, I hate when people think or assume that they know how I feel. That's what I don't like about empathy. Both sides of the coin feel icky to me sometimes. Pity (sympathy) and projection (empathy) can be quite irritating.

I have noticed that on some things I will sympathize with people and my mom (INFP) will empathize with the same people and vice versa. It really depends on the context, values, experiences, etc. It is not mainly function contingent.

I'm an ENFP but pity doesn't bother me, because I know it's usually meant well, and I actually respond quite well to Fe style nurturing as long as it's not being overly nagging or judgmental. I know I use sympathy myself, not just empathy. I don't understand having any sort of strong opinion against sympathy, in fact, I find it strange.

Empathy just happens to come more naturally to me, sympathy is there but like as back-up, and the only thing I don't like about sympathy is that in some situations it can feel disloyal, if that makes any sense - like the person is trying so hard to please everyone they aren't being true to anyone. On the other hand, FJ temperament can actually make for extreme loyalty in friendships and relationships, so it's not all bad.
 

Billy

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Hi NF's, I decided to post this in the NF forum because I figured you would have the best models around this stuff. :) I have been thinking a lot about the Fe and Fi functions and how they translate into sympathy or empathy.

From my understanding sympathy is an understanding of another's feelings while empathy is actually feeling another's feelings. "You must be in pain" vs. "I feel your pain". And yes, I realize that from an NF's point of view it is far more nuanced than that, but this is really not the point of this post so please give this poor NT a break. ;-)

Through some observation it occurred to me that the Fe function correlates more with sympathy while the Fi function correlates more with empathy.

I arrived at this by noticing that my INFJ and ENFJ friends (Fe types), who were usually very warm and considerate of others, would be very cold and calculating in some situations, while my ENFP and INFP friends (Fi types) who are usually quite self centered would occasionally be overly considerate of another's feelings.

Somehow the Fe types (INFJ, ENFJ) could distance themselves a bit more from the "other" than the Fi types (ENFP, INFP) and I found this to be the exact opposite of what I would of expected.

This lead me to the notion that perhaps the Fe allows for sympathy, as the Fe type is not actually "feeling" the feelings of the other, while the Fi allows for empathy, as the Fi type is actually "feeling" the feelings of the other.

I have also noticed this in myself (ENTP type with Fe) and my INTJ/ENTJ friends (Fi types). Of course we are all cold and robotic by the NF standards ;-), but I find that my Fi NT friends who are usually quite cold are actually more empathetic (when they are inclined to feel), and my Fe NT friends who are normally much nicer, can be more distanced from another's emotions.

If this is all treading on well-trod ground, my apologies. But if not, I would appreciate some thoughts on the issue.

Thanks, Kevin

Of course, if we no longer have a reason to Fe-Feel for you, you become another abstract notion that is treated logically like our car keys or my pepper garden. Well treated and courteous, but not much caring.
 

Thalassa

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There have been many threads about sympathy and empathy here and which Feeling function engages in which. This is my opinion on the matter.

NFP types claim they empathize more. NFJ types claim they do both. SFs and Thinkers are left out of the picture totally. Since empathy has the greater emotional and social value, it's usually a tug of war to claim who has more of it. In the end, it tends to turn into a Fe vs. Fi thing as people are already doing now.

I think it's unfair to leave SF types out - I don't think it's specifically an NF thing...I do, however, think it is more Fi vs. Fe...so FPs more naturally have empathy, and FJs more naturally have sympathy...that's not to say that each type can't use both, though. I'm fairly certain I use a great deal of sympathy, though my first and most natural response is empathy.

I asked an ISFJ if he experienced empathy or sympathy, and he strongly prefers sympathy. I also seem to observe more consistently sympathetic behavior from other FJs, as I already pointed out in an earlier post.

I don't think that EITHER is superior...the drawback of empathy is that in some cases it can seem unfair or narrow minded, because as strongly as empathy can feel for people and want to love, care, and help them, empathetic people can also be very cold or even nasty to situations they feel no empathy for. Empathetic people are probably more prone to be abrupt or impolite, especially in extreme cases, like the ENFPs up there who claim to be bothered by sympathy.

I see the value in sympathy and was taught to use it from a very young age. However, my natural empathy can magnetically pull me to form very strong attachments and to take sides, which is why sympathy will never be my first course of action, except for in "big" social situations like death, illness, injury, etc. where no sympathy would just be heartless or inappropriate.

Often times for me to use sympathy, I have to step back from a situation and think about it later, then it occurs to me that maybe sympathy would be useful.
 
G

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Ah, good ol' sympathy and empathy discussion


I've known people who freak out when someone they care about freaks out, which often does the other person no good. They'll just trust you less if they think that they're placing a huge burden on you.

I've known others who think that someone who freaks out deserves a 'swift kick in the ass' in terms of telling them that they need to get over their freakout, which also often does them no good. They'll just trust you less if they think that you don't understand them at all.


I think that the kindest approach is to meet the person where they're at, then take them to where they need to be.

'Where they need to be' is a pretty situation-dependent, open question, but that first step is pretty much rock solid in terms of effectiveness and kindness.
 

Thalassa

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What are you basing that on?

Empathy in both in its positive and negative forms are associated with Fi - having a very intense, "genuine" emotional response rather than being polite or behaving as the social group expects, identifying strongly with others, as well as being extremely sensitive and possibly overreacting, and in it's most annoying form projecting one's own feelings inappropriately onto others...or what some ENTPs call "Fi pretentiousness." Ahem.

Sympathy, on the other hand, is largely associated with Fe nurturing behavior like staying in tune with the entire group in terms of behavior, having an appropriately warm response in certain social situations, being able to detach one's personal feelings from a situation and treating everyone with a more equal kindness or at least politeness, and in it's lowest form reduced to expected social platitudes.

I think you had an excellent description of empathy vs. sympathy in your post about breast cancer, and I agree that people can experience both, but that empathy seems to be the default response of Fi because it's an internalized feeling, and sympathy seems to be the default response of Fe because it's an externally-based feeling. That's not to say each can't do both.
 

angell_m

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To put it bluntly. I consider sympathy pathetic, and empathy a requirement.
 

Rail Tracer

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I think it's unfair to leave SF types out - I don't think it's specifically an NF thing...I do, however, think it is more Fi vs. Fe...so FPs more naturally have empathy, and FJs more naturally have sympathy...that's not to say that each type can't use both, though. I'm fairly certain I use a great deal of sympathy, though my first and most natural response is empathy.

My natural response seems to be empathy. It is like empathy sounds more genuine, at least, when it comes to my response to another person. If a friend of mine had to face the death of a loved one, I'll probably feel what my friend is feeling, saddened, down in the dumps, why did this had to happen. But at the same time while I am feeling what he is feeling, I do what I can to help the person cheer up even if it is just a little bit. And that is because I can see where he is coming from, I can personally understand him and be there for him inside and outside of me.

On a different scenario, if I don't empathize with a person base on my own reasons(somewhere along the lines of "That is what you get for being so and so",) I can be one of the meanest person there is. I might even antagonize the person for what he/she has done and empathize with the other person rather then the person asking for help. It is my way of saying that the person did something bad, learn from it.

Sympathy on the other hand, it sounds too "shallow" in the sense that it isn't really me there that is helping a person. But if I wanted to help the person, I'll resort to it if I had to. Some people want you to just be there for the person when that person is feeling down. Trying to empathize with the person could potentially make it worse. I am not there to make the situation worse for a person I care about.

That is really about it.
 

proteanmix

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Empathy in both in its positive and negative forms are associated with Fi - having a very intense, "genuine" emotional response rather than being polite or behaving as the social group expects, identifying strongly with others, as well as being extremely sensitive and possibly overreacting, and in it's most annoying form projecting one's own feelings inappropriately onto others...or what some ENTPs call "Fi pretentiousness." Ahem.

Sympathy, on the other hand, is largely associated with Fe nurturing behavior like staying in tune with the entire group in terms of behavior, having an appropriately warm response in certain social situations, being able to detach one's personal feelings from a situation and treating everyone with a more equal kindness or at least politeness, and in it's lowest form reduced to expected social platitudes.

I think you had an excellent description of empathy vs. sympathy in your post about breast cancer, and I agree that people can experience both, but that empathy seems to be the default response of Fi because it's an internalized feeling, and sympathy seems to be the default response of Fe because it's an externally-based feeling. That's not to say each can't do both.

You really didn't explain anything, just spit out typological platitudes. Which I guess are the social platitudes of this particular forum, so you did some great Fe there. This also shows your lack of understanding of what Fe is...did you mean to say that Fe does not have "intense, "genuine" emotional response" because that's what you just said or at least that's what I understand you to be saying.

This is why I this particular topic is so irritating to me. Nearly every time this topic comes up, I ask the ones who insist they are more empathetic to tell me what they base this on and all I get is Fi is the more genuine, real feeling while Fe is mechanized appropriate response, like a script or something.

I can think of three particular examples that I'm almost 95% sure you'd be hard pressed to empathize with me about and they're socio-political-cultural life areas. I think that if you were to claim you know exactly how I feel, you'd look incredibly silly and come across condescending and patronizing.

Empathy is more than "I know how you feel/I feel your pain." There are more components involved than that. I never see people talk about elements like:
  • Perceived empathy
  • Accurate empathy
  • Empathetic concern
  • the experiential and contextual components of empathy (which is what I described in my post)

and yet, they have so much of it. How do you know how empathetic you are? If you say you have a lot of it, what are you measuring it against? When you say you have more or less of something, that means you can quantify it in some way...it's some standard that you're comparing yourself to. How are you quantifying and measuring that you have "more" empathy? Just saying your are more empathetic or naturally empathetic doesn't mean you are more. I'm the Queen of Sheba! Why? Because I say so. ;)

What does the target of your empathy say or feel from your empathy (perceived empathy)? How accurate are you in your empathy (empathic accuracy)? How do you (re)act to and on your feelings of empathy (empathetic concern)?

Maybe if I saw you talking about the various components of empathy, breaking it down into it's pieces and parts, I may believe you. But I never see it happening, I never see people breaking a concept down in such a way that let's me know they grasp it, not just them claiming they have something and showing no understanding of what they claim to have. I used to get so excited when this topic would come up, now it's just feel like I'm going to have to do a slapdown because inevitably people will come with this Fe vs. Fi crap as their proof.

I have talked to people (like when my mother was in the nursing home), who talk about empathy casually...not like they're psychologists or therapists but just in a casual manner that shows they get it, both intellectually and emotionally. They just don't spit out emotional buzzwords and catch phrases like "intense" and "genuine" and "deep" and "intimate" and when you quiz them harder on it they resort to easy answers like what you said above.
 

Thalassa

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You really didn't explain anything, just spit out typological platitudes. Which I guess are the social platitudes of this particular forum, so you did some great Fe there. This also shows your lack of understanding of what Fe is...did you mean to say that Fe does not have "intense, "genuine" emotional response" because that's what you just said or at least that's what I understand you to be saying.

This is why I this particular topic is so irritating to me. Nearly every time this topic comes up, I ask the ones who insist they are more empathetic to tell me what they base this on and all I get is Fi is the more genuine, real feeling while Fe is mechanized appropriate response, like a script or something.

I can think of three particular examples that I'm almost 95% sure you'd be hard pressed to empathize with me about and they're socio-political-cultural life areas. I think that if you were to claim you know exactly how I feel, you'd look incredibly silly and come across condescending and patronizing.

Empathy is more than "I know how you feel/I feel your pain." There are more components involved than that. I never see people talk about elements like:
  • Perceived empathy
  • Accurate empathy
  • Empathetic concern
  • the experiential and contextual components of empathy (which is what I described in my post)

and yet, they have so much of it. How do you know how empathetic you are? If you say you have a lot of it, what are you measuring it against? When you say you have more or less of something, that means you can quantify it in some way...it's some standard that you're comparing yourself to. How are you quantifying and measuring that you have "more" empathy? Just saying your are more empathetic or naturally empathetic doesn't mean you are more. I'm the Queen of Sheba! Why? Because I say so. ;)

What does the target of your empathy say or feel from your empathy (perceived empathy)? How accurate are you in your empathy (empathic accuracy)? How do you (re)act to and on your feelings of empathy (empathetic concern)?

Maybe if I saw you talking about the various components of empathy, breaking it down into it's pieces and parts, I may believe you. But I never see it happening, I never see people breaking a concept down in such a way that let's me know they grasp it, not just them claiming they have something and showing no understanding of what they claim to have. I used to get so excited when this topic would come up, now it's just feel like I'm going to have to do a slapdown because inevitably people will come with this Fe vs. Fi crap as their proof.

I have talked to people (like when my mother was in the nursing home), who talk about empathy casually...not like they're psychologists or therapists but just in a casual manner that shows they get it, both intellectually and emotionally. They just don't spit out emotional buzzwords and catch phrases like "intense" and "genuine" and "deep" and "intimate" and when you quiz them harder on it they resort to easy answers like what you said above.

I never said Fe was mechanical, and I never claimed the "genuine" behavior of Fi is always pleasant, appropriate, or even emotionally mature. I think you're very defensive about Fe for some reason, and I went out of my way to point out the flaws in Fi, which are certainly evident. I'm actually someone who values Fe, and scores fairly high on it for an Fi user.

This is a typology forum. I explained to you my observations based on function theory.

I acknowledged that people of both types can use both functions. I complimented your earlier description. I'm not sure what you want, exactly.

Fe users have told me about their capability of distance from a situation, almost sometimes as though they feel superior about it, and Fi users often talk about how overly involved they get into things sometimes. It's not like I'm just pulling this out of my ass.
 

proteanmix

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I never said Fe was mechanical, and I never claimed the "genuine" behavior of Fi is always pleasant, appropriate, or even emotionally mature. I think you're very defensive about Fe for some reason, and I went out of my way to point out the flaws in Fi, which are certainly evident. I'm actually someone who values Fe, and scores fairly high on it for an Fi user.

This is a typology forum. I explained to you my observations based on function theory.

How would you explain sympathy and empathy without using MBTI or typology? You know those emotional responses existed before Jung came on the scene.

Re me being defensive about Fe: If I am, you must be inconsolable in your empathy.

I acknowledged that people of both types can use both functions. I complimented your earlier description. I'm not sure what you want, exactly.

I'll tell you what I want: for you and everyone else to stop claiming they have more of something because of some functional endowment. I swear, claiming Fi is more empathetic must be like emotional Viagra or something.

Fe users have told me about their capability of distance from a situation, almost sometimes as though they feel superior about it, and Fi users often talk about how overly involved they get into things sometimes. It's not like I'm just pulling this out of my ass.

I beg to differ.
 

Thalassa

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How would you explain sympathy and empathy without using MBTI or typology? You know those emotional responses existed before Jung came on the scene.

Empathy is something you identify with and have a personal emotional response to - relating to someone on a deep level,"feeling it" and sympathy is acknowledging others' feelings without relating to them, extending kindness and concern without identifying personally and sometimes providing the expected behavior in given social situations in order to make others comfortable.


Re me being defensive about Fe: If I am, you must be inconsolable in your empathy.

No, I am not inconsolable, but I appreciate your thoughtful concern. I've actually become more and more objective about Fi in recent months.



I'll tell you what I want: for you and everyone else to stop claiming they have more of something because of some functional endowment. I swear, claiming Fi is more empathetic must be like emotional Viagra or something.

People with Fi often react with an intense emotional response to given stimuli in a very personal way - sometimes to the point of jumping to conclusions or overreacting, or being so pained for someone else that they themselves are incapacitated and no longer helpful (that's when Te needs to kick in) so it shouldn't be very surprising that they relate more to empathy.



I beg to differ.

IME, Fe users want people with Fi to get a grip. If that isn't a capability of distance they're feeling proud of, I'm not sure what is. I've talked with IxFJs and ENTPs about this at length. Perhaps as an Fe dom, you have less ability to distance.
 

proteanmix

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Empathy is something you identify with and have a personal emotional response to - relating to someone on a deep level,"feeling it" and sympathy is acknowledging others' feelings without relating to them, extending kindness and concern without identifying personally and sometimes providing the expected behavior in given social situations in order to make others comfortable.

Once again, I can find that on google. You're not saying anything.

People with Fi often react with an intense emotional response to given stimuli in a very personal way - sometimes to the point of jumping to conclusions or overreacting, or being so pained for someone else that they themselves are incapacitated and no longer helpful (that's when Te needs to kick in) so it shouldn't be very surprising that they relate more to empathy.

OK, so let me understand what you're saying. Take some common life very personal life experiences like birth, death, wedding, divorce, etc. Fi users somehow take that even more personally, because they feel it deeper for themselves and for everyone else? So on my wedding day, my Fi using friends will feel my joy and happiness MORE than even what I'm feeling? Can I persuade my Fi using friends to pay my student loans for me, cause they must be feeling it harder than I am and if they could use some of that Te to work hard to pay my loans and ease their and my suffering. Plus, I could reallocate that money to Hedonism 2011, aka The Year of my Thirtieth Birthday. You need some major dough to party for one solid year!

IME, Fe users want people with Fi to get a grip. If that isn't a capability of distance they're feeling proud of, I'm not sure what is. I've talked with IxFJs and ENTPs about this at length. Perhaps as an Fe dom, you have less ability to distance.

Hmm, I didn't realize being an emotional spaz and nutcase was related to Fi. Now that you mention it, I can see the truth in that.

To give your claims a sheen of legitimacy, I have wondered if the Helping Professions are more FJ heavy because FJs can detach a bit more and be more useful in the sense that they're more able to move beyond personal feelings and act rather than being overwhelmed and incapacitated by their own emotions.
 

Thalassa

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Once again, I can find that on google. You're not saying anything.

That's fine, really. We're going to have to agree to disagree since you demand that I come up with...what...I don't know.



OK, so let me understand what you're saying. Take some common life very personal life experiences like birth, death, wedding, divorce, etc. Fi users somehow take that even more personally, because they feel it deeper for themselves and for everyone else? So on my wedding day, my Fi using friends will feel my joy and happiness MORE than even what I'm feeling? Can I persuade my Fi using friends to pay my student loans for me, cause they must be feeling it harder than I am and if they could use some of that Te to work hard to pay my loans and ease their and my suffering. Plus, I could reallocate that money to Hedonism 2011, aka The Year of my Thirtieth Birthday. You need some major dough to party for one solid year!

I get the feeling that you're intentionally missing my point. It seems pretty obvious to me the way that Fi users behave and react, and it in no way implies that they are happier or sadder for you than you are for yourself, but I think they are more likely to tap into their own experience with that emotional event. It's like what Fidelia was expressing confusion or frustration about when ENFPs kept replying to her with personal stories rather than more objective answers, or Rebe's story about freaking out over the animal cruelty video because she felt it in such a profound way.



Hmm, I didn't realize being an emotional spaz and nutcase was related to Fi. Now that you mention it, I can see the truth in that.

Yeah, that's totally unnecessary, but I'm sure you already know that.

To give your claims a sheen of legitimacy, I have wondered if the Helping Professions are more FJ heavy because FJs can detach a bit more and be more useful in the sense that they're more able to move beyond personal feelings and act rather than being overwhelmed and incapacitated by their own emotions.

Yep. Why are you taking that as being a bad thing?
 

stalemate

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I can really feel the irritation in these last few posts as if it were my own...
 

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Jung gave a 1935 lecture to 200 doctors where he clearly stated the feeling function-regardless of attitude-has nothing to do with emotions. Nothing.
He defined emotions as physiological, something any type is capable of having, and emotions are not to be confused with the FEELING function as a mental process.

Jung's old comment aside, I'm not sure what the big deal is here. We all have the ability to use any of the 8 functions unless someone has sustained brain damage.
Anyone can feel empathy or sympathy for another person unless they're a psychopath. That's what separates psychopaths from healthy people - they cannot feel empathy. Any healthy human being, regardless of type, is capable of feeling empathy and sympathy.

"To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another.
The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them. "

Empathy

The FEELING function is not about "feelings" in the usual sense of the word, whatsoever.
Fe and Fi are both judgement functions, used to make decisions of value or worth. The FEELING function seeks to answer the question, "What, or who, is something worth?" In other words, exactly how important is this to me? It's evaluative in nature. It's not about who feels the most emotion.

That's why Jung once commented a FEELING type, could be the coldest person alive.
Considering Jung's defintion of what the FEELING function is, it's perfectly understandable why he said that.
 

Thalassa

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Jung gave a 1935 lecture to 200 doctors where he clearly stated the feeling function-regardless of attitude-has nothing to do with emotions. Nothing.
He defined emotions as physiological, something any type is capable of having, and emotions are not to be confused with the FEELING function as a mental process.

Jung's old comment aside, I'm not sure what the big deal is here. We all have the ability to use any of the 8 functions unless someone has sustained brain damage.
Anyone can feel empathy or sympathy for another person unless they're a psychopath. That's what separates psychopaths from healthy people - they cannot feel empathy. Any healthy human being, regardless of type, is capable of feeling empathy and sympathy.

"To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another.
The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them. "

Empathy

The FEELING function is not about "feelings" in the usual sense of the word, whatsoever.
Fe and Fi are both judgement functions, used to make decisions of value or worth. The FEELING function seeks to answer the question, "What, or who, is something worth?" In other words, exactly how important is this to me? It's evaluative in nature. It's not about who feels the most emotion.

That's why Jung once commented a FEELING type, could be the coldest person alive.
Considering Jung's defintion of what the FEELING function is, it's perfectly understandable why he said that.

You're making an extremely valid point, but I have surely noticed a difference in the way of Fe vs. Fi preference "handling" things. It's actually led me to believe fairly recently that the assumption that Fi users belong together is wrongity-wrong, because when Fi is overly internalizing, Fe can step back from the situation enough not to get carried away with the Fi user (as a second Fi person might be prone to do; ugh I'm thinking of me and my ESFP mother...) but still be sympathetic enough to tolerate what Fi is doing. I think Fe can be really good at "handling" people, which is something I associate with sympathy, not empathy. And while two Fi users might get carried away and fight each other to the death (not literally, just figuratively) two Fe users might be so busy "handling" each other that certain things never get said.

I think Fe and Fi aren't a bad combination, and I have nothing against Fe, I value it. I just want to repeat that because as off-topic as this post may be, I mean well in my intention to say I AM NOT CLAIMING ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER OR OMGZ Fi HAS SUPERIOR FEELINGZ. Quite the contrary.

kthnxbye
 

proteanmix

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That's fine, really. We're going to have to agree to disagree since you demand that I come up with...what...I don't know.

Would you care to address my points about perceived empathy, empathetic concern, and empathetic accuracy? Or the ones about how you measure the amount of empathy you have to know you have more of it?

I get the feeling that you're intentionally missing my point.

No I am not. I think you're missing mine. I'm saying that empathy is more complex than anything you're using as proof and by you dogmatically sticking to your claim that Fi is more empathetic, you are not acknowledging the multitude of ways empathy is defined and expressed.

This is from wiki, read it yourself:
Since empathy involves understanding the emotional states of other people, the way it is characterized is derivative of the way emotions themselves are characterized. If, for example, emotions are taken to be centrally characterized by bodily feelings, then grasping the bodily feelings of another will be central to empathy. On the other hand, if emotions are more centrally characterized by a combination of beliefs and desires, then grasping these beliefs and desires will be more essential to empathy. The ability to imagine oneself as another person is a sophisticated imaginative process. However the basic capacity to recognize emotions is probably innate and may be achieved unconsciously. Yet it can be trained, and achieved with various degrees of intensity or accuracy.

The human capacity to recognize the bodily feelings of another is related to one's imitative capacities, and seems to be grounded in the innate capacity to associate the bodily movements and facial expressions one sees in another with the proprioceptive feelings of producing those corresponding movements or expressions oneself. Humans also seem to make the same immediate connection between the tone of voice and other vocal expressions and inner feeling.

How can you directly correlate all those variables to just Fi alone or claim that Fi is the single function responsible for empathy? You keep trying to turn this into a one-trick pony kind of deal, when it's more than that. Additionally, you're not acknowledging that it's teachable, learnable, contextual, dependent on perception, cultural, experiential, cognitive, instinctual, none of that. It just is what it is and whatever it is, you got lots of it.

It seems pretty obvious to me the way that Fi users behave and react, and it in no way implies that they are happier or sadder for you than you are for yourself, but I think they are more likely to tap into their own experience with that emotional event. It's like what Fidelia was expressing confusion or frustration about when ENFPs kept replying to her with personal stories rather than more objective answers, or Rebe's story about freaking out over the animal cruelty video because she felt it in such a profound way.

For example, in your little story above the inability of Rebe and the other ENFP to think outside of their own emotional reaction, hey that's the EXACT OPPOSITE empathy:
Just as empathy was conceptually distinguished from sympathy, beginning with the early definitions of empathy in the 1800s, the term may be in the process of being distinguished further, this time from "perspective taking". Due both to the conceptual confusions between the emotional and cognitive aspects of empathy and to an emerging sense of the differences in the functional aspects of the two phenomena, more-recent discussions have distinguished between empathy (as the more intuitive emotional aspect) and perspective-taking (as the more cognitive aspect). Some authors, however, see perspective taking as one of the dimensions of empathy.

They can't even step outside of their own experiences to interact with the other person...perspective taking is an element of empathy. You're describing people that aren't perspective-taking because they're stuck in their own! And read the bolded above: there are dimensions of empathy. Not just one thing or one definition...it's those components I'm harping about.

What I'm trying to do by insisting that you're being 1D in your understanding of what empathy is try to engage you in a conversation about the other elements of empathy but you keep going back to typology to explain yourself. You can't even extricate your mind from MBTI enough to talk about this.

Yeah, that's totally unnecessary, but I'm sure you already know that.

What?! I'm Fe, I don't do anything like that!

Yep. Why are you taking that as being a bad thing?

I don't think it's bad for FJs, I think it's sad that some people are so mired in their own muck of feeling that they can't even reach out to help themselves or others. And then to conflate that with empathy is where the error occurs I think.
 

Thalassa

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Would you care to address my points about perceived empathy, empathetic concern, and empathetic accuracy? Or the ones about how you measure the amount of empathy you have to know you have more of it?



No I am not. I think you're missing mine. I'm saying that empathy is more complex than anything you're using as proof and by you dogmatically sticking to your claim that Fi is more empathetic, you are not acknowledging the multitude of ways empathy is defined and expressed.

This is from wiki, read it yourself:


How can you directly correlate all those variables to just Fi alone or claim that Fi is the single function responsible for empathy? You keep trying to turn this into a one-trick pony kind of deal, when it's more than that. Additionally, you're not acknowledging that it's teachable, learnable, contextual, dependent on perception, cultural, experiential, cognitive, instinctual, none of that. It just is what it is and whatever it is, you got lots of it.



For example, in your little story above the inability of Rebe and the other ENFP to think outside of their own emotional reaction, hey that's the EXACT OPPOSITE empathy:

I am going to sit down and address this when I'm sufficiently clear headed enough to go through it point by point. I promise I will.


They can't even step outside of their own experiences to interact with the other person...perspective taking is an element of empathy. You're describing people that aren't perspective-taking because they're stuck in their own! And read the bolded above: there are dimensions of empathy. Not just one thing or one definition...it's those components I'm harping about.

What I'm trying to do by insisting that you're being 1D in your understanding of what empathy is try to engage you in a conversation about the other elements of empathy but you keep going back to typology to explain yourself. You can't even extricate your mind from MBTI enough to talk about this.

You're really making assumptions here.



What?! I'm Fe, I don't do anything like that!

Ha! People with Fe try to push people's buttons all the time, lulz. It's part of their repertoire of handling people...that can be used for good or ill. To nurture, or to fuck with, that is the question! There's no law that says Fe is always "nice" or "appropriate" any more than Fi is, or that Fe users never have thoughts like "why me/poor me" or that they always jump in to be helpful.



I don't think it's bad for FJs, I think it's sad that some people are so mired in their own muck of feeling that they can't even reach out to help themselves or others. And then to conflate that with empathy is where the error occurs I think.

I think you're making incorrect assumptions about Fi not being able to help themeselves or others. That's immature or unhealthy Fi, not the grand totality of Fi. In fact, Fi is often willing to take on the cause of another as their own, hence ENFPs being called "The Champion." Art and music and literature are also things that can help people, help isn't always a hands-on thing. For that matter, people with mature Fi can use their refinement of feeling to strongly propel them to help others, including in hands-on ways.
 
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