User Tag List

First 5678 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 78

  1. #61
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Don't you all have a thread for this already http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ft-curse.html?

    It's like there can never be a discussion about anything here without it being dominated by a certain POV. Yall don't ever try to engage or facilitate discussion, never try to ask other people what their processes are, always try to dissect yourselves ad nauseam. There is no dialogue, just a series of people contributing their own monologues, obsessed with their own thoughts and processes and only really trying to talk to other people who process like them who can monologue with them. I don't know how you all think dialogue occurs but it my mind you open up spaces by actively asking and engaging other people to offer input.

    This breaks it down better than I can:


    That right there is a major component of empathy, in fact it's called empathetic listening. STFU and letting others speak, asking people to share their experiences not asserting the foolishness that was thrown around earlier in this thread. That particular process is called empathetic accuracy, listening to others to make sure your sense of empathy was correct and not some ego-stroke in your head to validate your sense of self and never trying to verify if you were right about what you felt.
    Yes, and that's what happens IRL, or in one on one chats...this is an Internet forum where we are debating. I didn't feel like I needed to ask you anything, since you seem pretty darn adept at giving your own monologues. I even mentioned in my last post that empathetic accuracy can only be determined by communicating with the other person.

    Do you all ever notice that FJs barely ever participate in such discussions and when they do it tends to be defensively? Why do you think that happens? There certainly are enough thoughtful IxFJs here to make solid contributions. We've had more and more Fe doms show up, but they don't interject much. And other types barely utter a peep. Why do you all think that is or have you not even noticed it (probably the latter)? Do you notice it and think this is no participation because there is no understanding or ability to relate, which is flat out wrong? I have tried to believe this is not an Fi/Fe thing, but maybe it just is and that's a sad thought to me.

    That's why I have my doubts about people's supposed powers of empathy. I don't feel like I have empathy coming back from the majority of NFPs on this forum. Maybe you all feel it with each other, but I don't feel it. And if you can only create an empathetic link with people who are like you and process like you then what kind of empathy is that? I can't speak for other people, so I'll contain this to myself. I don't feel particularly like my POV is understood and thank goodness I'm not looking for it to be validated here...I got over that in 2008.
    It sounds to me like you don't like NFPs and you have it in your mind that we're selfish or whatever and don't try to understand us, either. It's BS for you to say we can only form an empathetic link with people who are like us ...maybe that's true for some, but not for all.

    I do strongly feel that erroneous and incomplete information needs to be addressed because I hate for misinformation to be spread about like it's fact, which is my stake in this discussion. That's why I brought up the concepts of empathetic accuracy and perceived empathy. To me, not including those ingredients is like trying to bake a cake with no flour, eggs, sugar, butter, and milk and then steadily asserting that what you have in the oven is in fact a cake.
    Well thank you for your contributions. I believe you were already thanked and praised for earlier ones, at least until we got to this post.

  2. #62
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Hmmmmm... I would say that Fe seems more like a perceiving function than a judging function, because it depends on what the other person shows. It is almost entirely dependant upon an external source. I.E. what we are taught, or shown to be wrong is what Fe looks towards first before actually checking it's own personal opinion. I think this is why they appear so different even though they are both Judging functions in the context of a theory.

    It seems that the problem that is trying to be solved here is how each empathize and sympathize when perhaps it might be better to ask 'Why?' they sympathize and empathize, and perhaps the most distinct differences between the two lie there? Just some thoughts. I didn't read the whole thread so I may be pointing out the known.

    This being said the internal feelings (Fi) can only come from an 'I' persepective. They are core values and as I have heard feelings have nuances between them that can only be explained very personally and what better pronoun to use, but 'I'? I think of these functions as stages in a development. The Fi-user (the initiator) will spout it's personal beliefs and then the Fe-user (the connector) will try to come with what they have been taught and if what they have been taught corresponds with what the Fi-user said then the connection is made. If the circuit is completed sparks are made.

  3. #63
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Hmmmmm... I would say that Fe seems more like a perceiving function than a judging function, because it depends on what the other person shows. It is almost entirely dependant upon an external source. I.E. what we are taught, or shown to be wrong is what Fe looks towards first before actually checking it's own personal opinion. I think this is why they appear so different even though they are both Judging functions in the context of a theory.
    No...I really think they're both judging functions...and therein lies the conflict on this forum.

    It seems that the problem that is trying to be solved here is how each empathize and sympathize when perhaps it might be better to ask 'Why?' they sympathize and empathize, and perhaps the most distinct differences between the two lie there? Just some thoughts. I didn't read the whole thread so I may be pointing out the known.
    Yeah good point.

    This being said the internal feelings (Fi) can only come from an 'I' persepective. They are core values and as I have heard feelings have nuances between them that can only be explained very personally and what better pronoun to use, but 'I'? I think of these functions as stages in a development. The Fi-user (the initiator) will spout it's personal beliefs and then the Fe-user (the connector) will try to come with what they have been taught and if what they have been taught corresponds with what the Fi-user said then the connection is made. If the circuit is completed sparks are made.
    I don't know, I've gotten along extremely well with some Fe people IRL, and some of them on here as well. I think personal beliefs vs. what they've been taught is oversimplifying. I'm quite sure more goes into Fe than what it's been taught, and even as an Fi user I know that I was taught some of my values. I do think you have a point though that often people with Fi use "I" because they feel that they can only speak for themselves, and that trying to speak for a group is controlling or wrong or at least inaccurate. That's not always the case though.

  4. #64
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    No...I really think they're both judging functions...and therein lies the conflict on this forum.



    Yeah good point.



    I don't know, I've gotten along extremely well with some Fe people IRL, and some of them on here as well. I think personal beliefs vs. what they've been taught is oversimplifying. I'm quite sure more goes into Fe than what it's been taught, and even as an Fi user I know that I was taught some of my values. I do think you have a point though that often people with Fi use "I" because they feel that they can only speak for themselves, and that trying to speak for a group is controlling or wrong or at least inaccurate. That's not always the case though.
    From this description I think it can be seen as a perceiving function:


    ["The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along."]

    When I read this description (I don't know if this is a good description of it or not) it seems difficult for me to see this as a Judging function. The premise this takes seems more of the opposite. I see almost automatic acceptance of anyone, which I suppose is a judgement, but not judging. I would like to understand this function better if anyone is willing to explain it too me.

  5. #65
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    From this description I think it can be seen as a perceiving function:


    ["The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along."]

    When I read this description (I don't know if this is a good description of it or not) it seems difficult for me to see this as a Judging function. The premise this takes seems more of the opposite. I see almost automatic acceptance of anyone, which I suppose is a judgement, but not judging. I would like to understand this function better if anyone is willing to explain it too me.
    Lulz ...Fe is not automatic acceptance of everyone...if anything, it can kick people out of the group for not playing along...Fe has no problem "nudging" or correcting the behavior of others...Fe is not always about conformity, which is unfortunately a trait that can be unfairly assigned to Fe, but depending on how it is used, Fe can be warm and accepting and wonderful, or it can be judgmental, harsh, controlling, and demand conformity.

    Fe, like Fi, is a judging function, just like Te is just as much of a judging function as Ti. The prime difference between Fe/Te and Ti/Fi is formulating judgements and standards from primarily external vs. internal criteria.

  6. #66
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    I do apologize for my ignorance of Fe. I understand that aspect, I believe. I don't really understand what it does when it is healthy.

  7. #67
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I do apologize for my ignorance of Fe. I understand that aspect, I believe. I don't really understand what it does when it is healthy.
    When it is healthy, it is exactly as you described...warm, polite, self-disclosing (which is one of the reasons I fail to understand why some Fe users don't relate to Fi self-disclosure when done by extroverted Fi users ...) and trying to tune into the needs of others, creating group harmony, thinking of the greatest maximum positive impact for the largest number of people.

    Healthy Fe is wonderful. I love it. I love Fe nurturing, and admire people who use Fe well. I even employ shadow Fe...I have a tendency to laugh when others laugh in some social situations, etc...I don't think that just because someone leads with Fi it means that they don't have any Fe at all, and vice versa.

    But to put either Fi or Fe up on a pedastal...Fi as all tolerant, easy going, more passive, letting people do basically whatever they want...or Fe as always being nurturing and warm and "nice" is a huge mistake. They both have their dark side.

  8. #68
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    When it is healthy, it is exactly as you described...warm, polite, self-disclosing (which is one of the reasons I fail to understand why some Fe users don't relate to Fi self-disclosure when done by extroverted Fi users ...) and trying to tune into the needs of others, creating group harmony, thinking of the greatest maximum positive impact for the largest number of people.

    Healthy Fe is wonderful. I love it. I love Fe nurturing, and admire people who use Fe well. I even employ shadow Fe...I have a tendency to laugh when others laugh in some social situations, etc...I don't think that just because someone leads with Fi it means that they don't have any Fe at all, and vice versa.

    But to put either Fi or Fe up on a pedastal...Fi as all tolerant, easy going, more passive, letting people do basically whatever they want...or Fe as always being nurturing and warm and "nice" is a huge mistake. They both have their dark side.
    To Fe-users: How do you use Fe effectively? I'm using this thread and a thread I made to understand my Tertiary function better. What does an unhealthy Fi dominant user look like? One of my closer friends is one and I was wondering what signs to look for in him.

  9. #69
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Don't you all have a thread for this already http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ft-curse.html?

    It's like there can never be a discussion about anything here without it being dominated by a certain POV. Yall don't ever try to engage or facilitate discussion, never try to ask other people what their processes are, always try to dissect yourselves ad nauseam. There is no dialogue, just a series of people contributing their own monologues, obsessed with their own thoughts and processes and only really trying to talk to other people who process like them who can monologue with them. I don't know how you all think dialogue occurs but it my mind you open up spaces by actively asking and engaging other people to offer input.

    [...]

    That right there is a major component of empathy, in fact it's called empathetic listening. STFU and letting others speak, asking people to share their experiences not asserting the foolishness that was thrown around earlier in this thread. That particular process is called empathetic accuracy, listening to others to make sure your sense of empathy was correct and not some ego-stroke in your head to validate your sense of self and never trying to verify if you were right about what you felt.
    edit -- upon review, it's a little annoying that i ended up talking about myself in a response to a post that expresses frustration about NFPs talking about themselves.
    but it really is an attempt to show how an NFP could completely empathize and not show it. and as for Fe empathizing, this is very much getting into semantics. i think most humans do both empathize and sympathize to a large extent...

    proteanmix, you make a good argument for Fe empathizing, but those are such detailed definitions that they almost seem arbitrary to me. overall i thought the point of the empathy/sympathy split was to be a useful generalization, not an exclusive thing. it seems to me that both F functions both empathize and sympathize in a variety of ways, and sometimes those two concepts are not even distinguishable.

    i don't think it was anyone's intention to slight you or your type by not taking up your point of view and discussing it in greater depth.


    initial post ~~~

    hey proteanmix, i just want to say i'm sorry if it seems like NFPs are dominating. i guess i can't speak for everyone, but at least personally, i love hearing from NFJs.

    i think the way i have felt, is that an online forum is somewhere where it is okay to ramble on about oneself if one feels like it -- and that really is how ENFPs learn best about ourselves -- sometimes we have to get things out to put them all in sensical order. and we do so very easily get off-topic, because it doesn't really seem all that off-topic to us. it seems related and worthwhile. i also am, very honestly, excited to speak with so many others of my own type, because i really don't know many in real life.

    i think that something important is that NFPs seem to have a tendency to show empathy a bit differently than NFJs (and SFJs), which i have learned from being very close with an ENFJ and ESFJ irl. S/NFJs seem a bit more interested in guiding conversation and making things flow smoothly. but to me, baring my soul to another is a show of empathy as well, and the one that comes most naturally. here is me, here is everything i have to offer, here is my open trust and my willingness to share everything with you, if it can be of good to you. it's true that sometimes i can get caught up trying to sort out myself, but i figure that the most i have to give anyone is my self, or at least from my self - after all, what other point of relation do i have? if i do not feel psychologically healthy, then i worry that my interactions with others may be more harmful than beneficial to them. so i see it as important to understand myself too, and to try to cultivate the best self i can have, both for my sake and so that i can be sure that i will continue to contribute to others' lives in a positive way... even if that does take a little self-dissecting -- and a psychology board would seem, to me, a very appropriate place to do this. i don't simply monologue on my own because i do look to others for their opinion and suggestions, and want to offer the same for them -- hence my presence here.

    as a relative newcomer i don't really understand the full of what's gone on in the past regarding Fe/Fi, and while reading the old threads is interesting and enlightening, the point of the forum, in my understanding, is to talk things out with others. i do think the nature of Fi - or F with P - leads it to being a bit more self-centered and outwardly passive, and the nature of Fe - or F with J - to be a bit more other-centered and outwardly active. but the point of either Feeling function is connection with and love for others -- so please don't read NFP introspection to be a lack of empathy or a lack of respect for and/or interest in you, or what you have to say. the truth is very much, in fact, the opposite. when i post a long self-analysis on here, it's like what i was saying before -- i share what i can of myself and i figure that anyone can relate to whatever they would like. i almost feel like it's assuming of me to try to direct anyone to which points i'd like them to relate with, or to ask them questions that might feel probing -- but exposing myself demonstrates my trust and allows anyone to connect at will. it's a very passive style of conversation. i do read and think about NFJ posts and am genuinely interested in what everyone of every type has to say (i'm always off reading in the other types' areas because a different POV is so interesting and valuable), but i do feel a reluctance to suggest to others how or when to express themself. i don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, and i figure that if someone has an opinion they want to express, they will express that. to me empathetic listening is letting you speak when you want to, trying to relate with you, and accepting you as you are. my own style is less facilitator and more confidante, because i generally don't have a particular goal in mind when i speak with others, besides understanding and connection. in general, the NFJs i know seem a bit more actively guiding conversation than NFPs -- but i feel like we're trying to ultimately achieve the same goal, which is connection with others and self-understanding.

    and i feel like it's good that you pointed out that you're feeling this way. i would not have realized otherwise -- admittedly a lack of awareness on my part. i'll personally try to keep my mind more other-oriented in the future, while surfing the boards, and i hope that any NFJs reading this -- or any type, for that matter -- will take away from this that as an NFP, i love hearing from every type and wholeheartedly encourage everyone to express themselves as they please on the NF boards. i may not always respond directly, but that never means your posts have gone unappreciated.
    Last edited by skylights; 08-06-2010 at 04:34 AM. Reason: blathered and had sounded black-and-white. thanks pitseleh :]

  10. #70
    Glycerine
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    No...I really think they're both judging functions...and therein lies the conflict on this forum.



    Yeah good point.



    I don't know, I've gotten along extremely well with some Fe people IRL, and some of them on here as well. I think personal beliefs vs. what they've been taught is oversimplifying. I'm quite sure more goes into Fe than what it's been taught, and even as an Fi user I know that I was taught some of my values. I do think you have a point though that often people with Fi use "I" because they feel that they can only speak for themselves, and that trying to speak for a group is controlling or wrong or at least inaccurate. That's not always the case though.
    Have I ever told you how much I love you?

Similar Threads

  1. Sympathy vs Empathy. Why is empathy more highly regarded?
    By fecaleagle in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 06-02-2015, 11:13 AM
  2. Empathy/Sympathy, Fi/Fe
    By Odi et Amo in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 02-15-2014, 01:41 PM
  3. Empathy versus sympathy and how they relate to F and T
    By Mycroft in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  4. Empathy and Sympathy??
    By alcea rosea in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 05-17-2009, 04:27 AM
  5. Sympathy/Empathy
    By kuranes in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 04-20-2009, 09:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO