User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 78

  1. #51
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    yippie!!!! empathy vs sympathy!!!! I love this topic for the 800th time!!!

    Normally I very strongly have a physiological mirrored response to another person's hurt. I understand this could be incorrect as I am projecting what I would perceive them to feel, and feeling that, not their real pain. Still hurts like hell.

    Normally I feel very little "sympathy". I expect others to be strong and when they have problems to do the best they can to resolve the problem. I can give them advice or listen to them, but to say words of condolence sounds false and it feels like I am insulting them or belittling their ability in some way.

    Now....*Michievious giggles* I have been following the INFJ thread and trying to actively listen and ask more and more questions of others-Fe users in particular and not try and Te solve problems. I think of it as empathic listening rather than experimentation.

    So at first I am uncertain what to say...I nod and listen and then I ask them questions, then more questions. After a short bit suddenly it is like my brain switches gears and I know exactly what to say and what to ask....and then I am not trying to feel them anymore with Fi. Fi is a few steps away. I actually care what they say...that sounds real bad, huh. I really want to know more about how they feel, about their families, about their problems. But I dont have to feel any of it myself, I just feel sort of side by side with them. I feel happiness or sadness for them, but I dont hurt deeply inside or feel overwhelmed with stress and anxiety because I am not making them part of my emotional construct anymore.

    The internal empathic reponse is instinctual but energy draining as it hurts to work through that pain. This side-by side stuff is actually energizing as .....I dunno why...I feel myself more and more pulled to listen more and more....

    And instead of making my own internal Fi pain go away by trying to solve their problems with Te...instead I can just listen and let them talk about how they feel about stuff. I dont try and solve the problem, but just agree it would be unpleasent and listen and agree and ask and stuff....

    Now the sympathy words feel perfectly fine to use, not at all inauthentic, because i really do care...and the words are how I care about them. It is what they need to hear at that moment.

    I think this is sympathy? Hell I dunno, I need to go experiment, I mean, actively listen some more...

  2. #52
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Now....*Michievious giggles* I have been following the INFJ thread and trying to actively listen and ask more and more questions of others-Fe users in particular and not try and Te solve problems. I think of it as empathic listening rather than experimentation.

    So at first I am uncertain what to say...I nod and listen and then I ask them questions, then more questions. After a short bit suddenly it is like my brain switches gears and I know exactly what to say and what to ask....and then I am not trying to feel them anymore with Fi. Fi is a few steps away. I actually care what they say...that sounds real bad, huh. I really want to know more about how they feel, about their families, about their problems. But I dont have to feel any of it myself, I just feel sort of side by side with them. I feel happiness or sadness for them, but I dont hurt deeply inside or feel overwhelmed with stress and anxiety because I am not making them part of my emotional construct anymore.
    so this totally reminds me,

    recently, i was sitting next to a woman on a plane who struck up a conversation with me. i wasn't really in a conversational mood, and i was a little nervous that it would get really awkward and then i would feel bad about not being able to sustain conversation and her thinking i didn't like/wasn't interested in her or something.

    but anyway, she seemed cool, but i didn't really know what to say right off the bat that would be socially appropriate (what i wanted to ask her was like, what sweet music have you heard lately?! what hobbies do you do?! what are your life dreams?! but we'd just met) -- so i thought about what my (ESFJ) mom might say (because my mom is socially amazing) and asked her about how she got into her job, etc.

    and shit, it was like, the conversation flowed and flourished and we talked about our ups and downs and lives and interests and all it needed was that little return to social awareness every once in a while to keep it mutually comfortable.

    hello Fe.

    ==

    was that on topic? kind of not.

    that was really interesting though orobas. i think you have something with the "emotional construct" thing. like, you can feel it together, but that emotion doesn't have to become a part of you, which is what Fi users seem to naturally want to do. i automatically try to incorporate that experience into my construct of wisdom from experience, but that does involve a lot of inwardly-directed thinking and moving through the emotional-cognitive process yourself -- plus it's a little tricky because i haven't exactly been there done that, Ne has to kind of fill in the blanks i guess. it kind of increases distance with others even though you're kind of incorporating them into you. paradoxical, i guess, but explains some of why Fi dom/aux always seem a tiny bit distant. not that Fe dom/aux can't too, but INFJ/ENFJ distance seems more aware/intentional.

    and that whole construct thing, does Ti do that too? that could make sense. i need to go talk about this in that other thread lol

    anyway yall know how all NFs can have that "old soul" vibe going on sometimes? maybe this is, in part, what gives Fi dom/aux that "old soul" feeling sometimes, since we incorporate everything. Fe dom/aux seems more "old soul" because they know exactly what to do to make everything okay.

  3. #53
    Glycerine
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think "if everything looks okay, it is" might be less-than-healthy Si/Fe, not just Fe specific...it's not that it was never his fault - that's not what I'm saying, it's not that he NEVER took responsibility or saw himself as the victim, so I think this is different than your INFP mother - it's just that he wanted things to snap back on track, as though that in and of itself fixes everything. His attitude wasn't that he was never wrong, but that clearly the way to set things right...is to act as though...nothing is wrong.

    I'm pretty sure he's ESFJ - it wasn't my first guess, but after learning more about MBTI I can scarcely see him as any other type, for lots of other reasons. On the good side, he was very nurturing and attentive in a certain way, etc.
    Mow that you mention it, my ESFJ dad does this a lot with me and my mom. The dynamics can get quite interesting.

  4. #54
    Senior Member You's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,137

    Default

    Empaths have super powers in X-Men.

    Sympathy doesn't give you any super powers. Other than the power to cry. Chuck Norris told me that.

  5. #55
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    that was really interesting though orobas. i think you have something with the "emotional construct" thing. like, you can feel it together, but that emotion doesn't have to become a part of you, which is what Fi users seem to naturally want to do. i automatically try to incorporate that experience into my construct of wisdom from experience, but that does involve a lot of inwardly-directed thinking and moving through the emotional-cognitive process yourself -- plus it's a little tricky because i haven't exactly been there done that, Ne has to kind of fill in the blanks i guess. it kind of increases distance with others even though you're kind of incorporating them into you. paradoxical, i guess, but explains some of why Fi dom/aux always seem a tiny bit distant. not that Fe dom/aux can't too, but INFJ/ENFJ distance seems more aware/intentional.

    and that whole construct thing, does Ti do that too? that could make sense. i need to go talk about this in that other thread lol

    anyway yall know how all NFs can have that "old soul" vibe going on sometimes? maybe this is, in part, what gives Fi dom/aux that "old soul" feeling sometimes, since we incorporate everything. Fe dom/aux seems more "old soul" because they know exactly what to do to make everything okay.
    This will sound totally crazy...I have been ruminating on some of this for a long time, I dont know if it is all correct at all, but since you seem interested...

    Once I was thinking about long lost friends I will never see again...I felt an upwelling of love for them..I felt still connected...Like a invisible, emotional tie binds us forever. I thought everybody did this, but they dont and many even think it is bizarre..

    I also feel emotional connection, akin to very deep caring, to several folks here that I have never met, and likely will never meet. It doesnt matter. I still care for them-love.

    If I never see them again....what am I connecting to?? In a bizarre moment of thought, I realized it was myself somehow. How can I connect to someone else, if I am only me? (assuming the lack of souls and such)

    I think with Fi we mirror/model/map/simulate our emotional world..the "emotional construct".

    I think we mirror other people and build them as part of our Fi construct. I'd suggest the gaps are filled by Ne, but the final result is an FiSi model we can use for reference. Fi users are well known for not making eye contact during emo moments...we are looking inside...at the construct of that person we created-their simulacrum. No matter where they go, we will always be connected...as we built the person into being part of ourselves.

    When they hurt, my construct of them hurts, thus I hurt. I seek to relieve their pain. With Se in 8th place, physical contact is meaningless. It takes time to change my view of a person as I have to edit that construct though...

    It is dangerous to let them become too deeply ingrained in our construct as we have to cut out a part of ourselves and destroy it if we have to cut them off. It is hard to hate or feel mean angry emotions at another person...as we are really hating our construct of them...thus hating ourselves. So we forgive very easily. It is very horrible if I hurt someone I care about..as then I get trapped in my own pain I feel for them, a part of my own construct, and get trapped in a bad place.

    A very dangerous thing is that we can feel love for those we have never meet...and be deeply hurt when they never understand that those emotions were very real for us...as they cannot feel love unless they are physically with another person. Neither is wrong or right, but are perceptions of the world do differ...

    Because our construct is us...when someone attacks us..we defend it sharply..defensive Fi...because they are hurting us. They are hurting our constructs....thus they are hurting all of those we care about...

    So while totally isolated, apparently selfish, with Fi or harsh with Te....we in reality carry everyone we love within us and bear their pain, and are driven to help quell that pain. Yup, I sometimes shut all of that off and come across as Te bitchy....

    So that ability to step away from this...I agree it might be shades of Fe....but it is very welcome. To be able to emotionally connect and care very deeply, authentically, for another, but not have to carry them as part of me......well I think I will keep practicing that as I do like it very much... It is such a relief.

  6. #56
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    YES YES YES to EVERYTHING

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    Once I was thinking about long lost friends I will never see again...I felt an upwelling of love for them..I felt still connected...Like a invisible, emotional tie binds us forever. I thought everybody did this, but they dont and many even think it is bizarre..
    me too. it doesn't sound crazy to me at all. i know it's been affirmed a few times in that ENFP Possessiveness thread that ENFPs never really stop loving someone they've loved. i feel this same way with places i was once attached to and will probably never go again. it makes me sad that i won't see them again but instead i carry them inside of me (FiSi?) and it's that whole global connection thing, you know? i do want to be a part of everything and everyone and have everything and everyone be a part of me. i can't even begin to fathom why... there's something almost spiritual about it...

    so Ne collects, Fi decides what it values and wants to add, Te projects and/or Si stores. this all works with the Jungian descriptions. Ne gathers info from outside, Fi decides, and Si gathers info from inside when summoned - though our Si isn't great, so we remember just was most important to us - which would be mostly feelings (especially enjoyable feelings) and major ideas/lessons learned, not really the whole picture. makes well for rose-colored glasses, doesn't it?

    not that i really have a problem with that... we just need a workaround code sometimes... speaking of -- Te does check things out logically if we have to present them externally, which is which is why we're figuring out stuff about ourselves while we talk maybe this is why our little supposedly extraverted selves love message boards so much! not only do we get to talk about tons of new ideas with lots of people but we also figure things out when we talk and it doesn't require the other person to listen to us in real time... lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    I think we mirror other people and build them as part of our Fi construct. I'd suggest the gaps are filled by Ne, but the final result is an FiSi model we can use for reference. Fi users are well known for not making eye contact during emo moments...we are looking inside...at the construct of that person we created-their simulacrum. No matter where they go, we will always be connected...as we built the person into being part of ourselves.

    When they hurt, my construct of them hurts, thus I hurt. I seek to relieve their pain. With Se in 8th place, physical contact is meaningless. It takes time to change my view of a person as I have to edit that construct though...

    It is dangerous to let them become too deeply ingrained in our construct as we have to cut out a part of ourselves and destroy it if we have to cut them off. It is hard to hate or feel mean angry emotions at another person...as we are really hating our construct of them...thus hating ourselves. So we forgive very easily. It is very horrible if I hurt someone I care about..as then I get trapped in my own pain I feel for them, a part of my own construct, and get trapped in a bad place.

    A very dangerous thing is that we can feel love for those we have never meet...and be deeply hurt when they never understand that those emotions were very real for us...as they cannot feel love unless they are physically with another person. Neither is wrong or right, but are perceptions of the world do differ...
    this is brilliant particularly... it explains, perhaps, why we do have such hard times letting go of people romantically - we take them all in and get terribly close to them, so close that they become a huge part of who we are. and sometimes they didn't even get that close to us, so that it seems like not that big of a deal on their part, whereas we're having to break down and rebuild a huge part of our identity to move on. that, or we cut and run before they do, immediately seizing onto the next person so that we can start rebuilding our identity right away, and not have to experience that painful breakdown.

    i totally agree about anger too. i cannot stand there being conflict with someone. if this is all right, then when i say i feel like i'm being "torn up" inside is actually rather literally true - my internal version of them and our harmonious relationship is being torn up by all our negative emotions. and Ne just spices it all up with relevant possibility. i typically build a whole NeFi scenario of god what if something happens to them in the time between us being angry and resolving the conflict, they could think i hated them and that may cause them emotional pain and that would be horrible...

    perhaps this is why i cannot seem to cut myself off from my own emotions and just get work done, while an ENFJ friend of mine can. it's not the difference between T and F, it's the difference between Fi and Fe. and when escape from the world of interior feeling is needed, it's better to resort to Se and Te/Ti, not feelings-based Fi values or past-based Si databases. logical thinking + present experience = escape.

    this all makes me feel oddly liberated. as much as i love having the strengths and even the quirks of an ENFP, there are some things that are very difficult -- i think i've voiced them before as "just caring too damn much". it'd be nice to figure out how to work around that for the sake of everyone sometimes.

    (personal relationship angst part cut and pasted below; read at discretion. it was a valuable realization on my part so i figured i'd post it just in case anyone else might benefit, but it really is kind of angsty.)
    when i'm breaking up with someone, the pain is so much in the loss of shared inside jokes and past experiences (Fi Si) and all my projection about how well we have worked and will work together (Ne Fi and Si)... and to a certain extent, all the things about them that i've gained through them and will no longer have. wow, that sounds selfish, but i don't really mean in a material sense, more like experiential. like the people i know through them, it just becomes awkward, but i don't want to lose all those people either. and more than anything, it just seems like we have this huge whole ground of common experience and affection between us, and there are so many ways it could work out, why start all over again with someone new when i still love you and we can fix this? that's always my problem. though i guess... i guess it could be fun to start all over again with someone new. wow, it really could be. holy crap, am i moving on?

  7. #57
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    skylights you are dead on....these seems like it should have a new thread...is it okay if I cut and paste your quotes?

    hugs.

  8. #58
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Don't you all have a thread for this already http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ft-curse.html?

    It's like there can never be a discussion about anything here without it being dominated by a certain POV. Yall don't ever try to engage or facilitate discussion, never try to ask other people what their processes are, always try to dissect yourselves ad nauseam. There is no dialogue, just a series of people contributing their own monologues, obsessed with their own thoughts and processes and only really trying to talk to other people who process like them who can monologue with them. I don't know how you all think dialogue occurs but it my mind you open up spaces by actively asking and engaging other people to offer input.

    This breaks it down better than I can:
    Dialogue tools help individuals understand across differences, share experiences, listen for common threads in someone else's viewpoint, combine diverse ideas or cultural ways of looking at things to solve problems, gather data to see a full-systems perspective on an issue or opportunity, engage people, foster collaboration, and tap into rich knowledge and cultural diversity in the process....

    The process, which is also the goal: Raise the capacity of individuals to engage others in dialogue - and to be able to listen well to consider another's experience. This raises the capacity of all Americans to be better neighbors - in their organizations, communities, and as world neighbors. Better family members. Better voters. Better world travelers, peace-builders, inquirers, co-workers, collaborators, idea generators - better citizens of the world...
    That right there is a major component of empathy, in fact it's called empathetic listening. STFU and letting others speak, asking people to share their experiences not asserting the foolishness that was thrown around earlier in this thread. That particular process is called empathetic accuracy, listening to others to make sure your sense of empathy was correct and not some ego-stroke in your head to validate your sense of self and never trying to verify if you were right about what you felt.

    Do you all ever notice that FJs barely ever participate in such discussions and when they do it tends to be defensively? Why do you think that happens? There certainly are enough thoughtful IxFJs here to make solid contributions. We've had more and more Fe doms show up, but they don't interject much. And other types barely utter a peep. Why do you all think that is or have you not even noticed it (probably the latter)? Do you notice it and think this is no participation because there is no understanding or ability to relate, which is flat out wrong? I have tried to believe this is not an Fi/Fe thing, but maybe it just is and that's a sad thought to me.

    That's why I have my doubts about people's supposed powers of empathy. I don't feel like I have empathy coming back from the majority of NFPs on this forum. Maybe you all feel it with each other, but I don't feel it. And if you can only create an empathetic link with people who are like you and process like you then what kind of empathy is that? I can't speak for other people, so I'll contain this to myself. I don't feel particularly like my POV is understood and thank goodness I'm not looking for it to be validated here...I got over that in 2008.

    I do strongly feel that erroneous and incomplete information needs to be addressed because I hate for misinformation to be spread about like it's fact, which is my stake in this discussion. That's why I brought up the concepts of empathetic accuracy and perceived empathy. To me, not including those ingredients is like trying to bake a cake with no flour, eggs, sugar, butter, and milk and then steadily asserting that what you have in the oven is in fact a cake.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #59
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Don't you all have a thread for this already http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ft-curse.html?
    Don't we already have posts about how there are already threads for this?

  10. #60
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    hey Pro...I moved our convo up to the ENFJ common issues thread as it contains many of the elemnets that were discussed on the INFJ common issues thread regarding Fe/Te communications

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1272898

Similar Threads

  1. Sympathy vs Empathy. Why is empathy more highly regarded?
    By fecaleagle in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 06-02-2015, 11:13 AM
  2. Empathy/Sympathy, Fi/Fe
    By Odi et Amo in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 02-15-2014, 01:41 PM
  3. Empathy versus sympathy and how they relate to F and T
    By Mycroft in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  4. Empathy and Sympathy??
    By alcea rosea in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 05-17-2009, 04:27 AM
  5. Sympathy/Empathy
    By kuranes in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 04-20-2009, 09:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO