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  1. #41
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    so proteanmix, what are your thoughts about empathy, starting with that it's used by both Fi and Fe dom/aux? do you think that Fi/Fe use certain types of empathy in different ways, or with different strategies?

    i have to point out that my Fe dom mom (haha, dom-mom) seems to be much more affected by sad stories in the news than i am. she seems to feel it within herself much more than i do. i don't know why this is.

    she also doesn't subscribe to situational emotion like i do... like, i can get in an argument with someone and be really pissed off at them, but then once we're done, i figure the emotion is done. i assume that our relationship is back to what it was pre-argument, that the argument was an aberration in our otherwise baseline good relationship. i have recently learned that two Fe doms close to me do not feel this way at all, that the argument is more of a fluid part of the relationship, not an aberration.

    but i don't know if this is all type related, or is just me occasionally being rather dense.

  2. #42
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post

    So if my Fe friend and I come across a bleeding dog on the road - I'd internally feel that pain and thinking to myself, what if I was that animal, what if I was bleeding after being run over by a car, that poor animal was just walking along and this huge truck comes and...

    It's not that it matters only because I can see a different scenario, I also know that the animal is a separate being and just by existing as a living thing deserves a better outcome than lying on some road in brutal pain- part of that (what I will now call 'heavy thinking' stems from Fi as in I have these values and expectations so I get philosophical and deep about a singular insignificant incident and ponder about life...not always but sometimes, Fe don't do that)
    This block made me think a lot. With this scenario, I'd treat it differently. I'd be thinking, "Oh wow! A hurt dog! It's going to get hit! Wait, if I run out to help it, I might be hit. I should call an ambulance. By the time they get here, the dog might be dead. That's a waste of a phone call. Okay. Keep moving."

    It just made me think about how much I employ Te in my daily decisions. Say for instance, some homeless person asks me for money. My internal reasoning is, "This guy needs money. Uhh, my money is my money, whether it's a penny or 100 dollars. Who knows what he'd use the money on anyway? You can't trust anyone. Besides, why does my life involve this random guy? What happens with his life has no impact on my own. I'm walking past him."

    I mean, I can feel compassion for people or understand their feelings on a deeper level, but I'm much more swayed by a logical evaluation of the situation.


  3. #43
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    I don't know much about Fi vs Fe...but I thought I'd throw some different fodder in the mix.

    I once read the following:
    "The most important contributing factor to this uncanny gift, however, are the empathic abilities often found in Fs, which seem to be especially heightened in the INFJ type (possibly by the dominance of the introverted N function)"
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    I don't know if this is right or if it is BS (all I know is that I think I'm fairly emphathetic as an INFJ)...but maybe we should be considering other functions in addition to Fi vs Fe? Maybe Fs with either Fi OR Ni are more empathetic than sympathetic? Just a shot in the dark.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hybrid_rainbow View Post
    I don't know much about Fi vs Fe...but I thought I'd throw some different fodder in the mix.

    I once read the following:
    "The most important contributing factor to this uncanny gift, however, are the empathic abilities often found in Fs, which seem to be especially heightened in the INFJ type (possibly by the dominance of the introverted N function)"
    INFJ Profile

    I don't know if this is right or if it is BS (all I know is that I think I'm fairly emphathetic as an INFJ)...but maybe we should be considering other functions in addition to Fi vs Fe? Maybe Fs with either Fi OR Ni are more empathetic than sympathetic? Just a shot in the dark.
    i think this Fe empathy is bit different than Fi empathy. i think Fe kinda reads other peoples emotions and it is capable to compare them to his own past emotions and understand how the other person feels making him empathize. But the difference is that Fi can empathize in much pure way, like reading into other peoples feelings by putting himself in the other persons situation, not reading other person then comparing the emotions that Fe gathers to himself. If Fe cant understand why the other persons feels the way he does, it cant compare those feelings to his own or what he might feel himself in the situation, same if the Fe user cant "collect" same kind of feelings inside of him by Si or Ni he wont be able to relate to them thus making him unable to empathize. I think there is pitfall on Fi empathizing also, since Ne or Se can misinterpret the situation leading the Fi empathize on a false feeling.

    That last sentence made me figure something out. It seems that Fi dom might more easily misinterpret the situation than Ne dom because the perceiving function isnt as evolved(or if it isnt). My infp friend is really good at empathizing, but he can easily misinterpret the other persons feelings usually exaggerating them making him to empathize on feelings that are stronger what the other person is actually feeling.
    Im not sure if this is just his problem or if other infps do this too, but it would be nice to hear other peoples opinions about this.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Would you care to address my points about perceived empathy, empathetic concern, and empathetic accuracy? Or the ones about how you measure the amount of empathy you have to know you have more of it?
    Perceived empathy could be emotional projection, which is something which I already pointed out. It's not always accurate. But empathetic concern is well-meaning and inspired by relating to the other person's pain, by being able to actually identify with their situation. Empathetic accuracy can only be confirmed through communicating with the other person. However, accuracy isn't the point here - I never argued that Fi was ever more empathetically accurate, but that it is most frequently Fi's motivation. Strong internalized feelings of identification- whether projected or accurate - are what tends to drive Fi. This is not to say that Fe does not experience it, or that Fi is always correct.



    No I am not. I think you're missing mine. I'm saying that empathy is more complex than anything you're using as proof and by you dogmatically sticking to your claim that Fi is more empathetic, you are not acknowledging the multitude of ways empathy is defined and expressed.

    This is from wiki, read it yourself:


    How can you directly correlate all those variables to just Fi alone or claim that Fi is the single function responsible for empathy? You keep trying to turn this into a one-trick pony kind of deal, when it's more than that. Additionally, you're not acknowledging that it's teachable, learnable, contextual, dependent on perception, cultural, experiential, cognitive, instinctual, none of that. It just is what it is and whatever it is, you got lots of it.
    Ok, I agree with your point that empathy is learnable, contextual, etc. That doesn't change the idea that the very nature of Fi is to be driven by what it identifies with, for good or ill. Just because this is usually Fi's motivation doesn't mean that empathy isn't experienced in other ways.



    For example, in your little story above the inability of Rebe and the other ENFP to think outside of their own emotional reaction, hey that's the EXACT OPPOSITE empathy:


    They can't even step outside of their own experiences to interact with the other person...perspective taking is an element of empathy. You're describing people that aren't perspective-taking because they're stuck in their own! And read the bolded above: there are dimensions of empathy. Not just one thing or one definition...it's those components I'm harping about.
    I disagree that Rebe's reaction was the exact opposite of empathy. It may not encompass every aspect of empathy, but yes, she is taking on the perspective of the animals who are suffering. Putting yourself in their shoes. Imagining what it's like to be them. It's not even a conscious action - it just happens. People who are actually MOTIVATED by these profound feelings will break out of their own reaction and it becomes the platform for actions performed because of this particular type of empathy i.e. becoming an animal rights activist because of this intense emotional experience, or something similar. That would be the mature expression of Fi style empathy, the emotional experience is just the starting point, the platform for actions performed.

    What I'm trying to do by insisting that you're being 1D in your understanding of what empathy is try to engage you in a conversation about the other elements of empathy but you keep going back to typology to explain yourself. You can't even extricate your mind from MBTI enough to talk about this.
    I do not disagree that there are other, complex forms of empathy, but that still doesn't change my position that the basic motive of Fi is based in intense feelings of emotional identification. That doesn't mean that Fi always is mature enough to act appropriately based upon motivation, or that people with Fe don't experience empathy as well.

    In the end it's about motivation, truthfully, not behavior or end result.

    The reason why I am arguing in an MBTI format is because that's on-topic. That's what the OP is about. That doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the validity of your points.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i have to point out that my Fe dom mom (haha, dom-mom) seems to be much more affected by sad stories in the news than i am. she seems to feel it within herself much more than i do. i don't know why this is.
    This is possibly because she's F dom and your aux F isn't relied upon as much for whatever reason, possibly just not at this point in your life, but will develop more later on.

    she also doesn't subscribe to situational emotion like i do... like, i can get in an argument with someone and be really pissed off at them, but then once we're done, i figure the emotion is done. i assume that our relationship is back to what it was pre-argument, that the argument was an aberration in our otherwise baseline good relationship. i have recently learned that two Fe doms close to me do not feel this way at all, that the argument is more of a fluid part of the relationship, not an aberration.

    but i don't know if this is all type related, or is just me occasionally being rather dense.
    That's interesting because my experience has been the opposite - especially with men with Fe...they seem to want things to comfortably go back to "normal" and to continue talking about it or holding a grudge or unresolved issues seems to annoy them, like I'm being selfish and threatening the very nature of the relationship by not letting it go when they've decided they're "done" and therefore I should...behave myself?...if I want the relationship to continue without consequences.

    My ENFJ sister also wants me to "behave myself" as well, like, "Okay, okay you've expressed your feelings...now let it go. Kthnxbye" seems to be her attitude. It could be just me, but Fe seems very prone to wanting things to be resolved, even if it feels premature or forced to me. It's like to them, the relationship won't be made better by talking about it more or things changing, but by the two of us just going back to behaving nicely to each other.

    Does that make any sense at all?

    EDIT: That last sentence really may have been a breakthrough for me...the relationship will only be made better if we stop fighting and treat each other nicely...I guess that's not that crazy. Maybe dragging it out looks to them like a real threat to the stability of the relationship? That relating is ultimately just about us being pleasant to each other...not trying to uncover any profound, painful, deep truth...and that my digging just looks like emotional instigating?

    Does anybody feel me here?

  7. #47
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    EDIT: That last sentence really may have been a breakthrough for me...the relationship will only be made better if we stop fighting and treat each other nicely...I guess that's not that crazy. Maybe dragging it out looks to them like a real threat to the stability of the relationship? That relating is ultimately just about us being pleasant to each other...not trying to uncover any profound, painful, deep truth...and that my digging just looks like emotional instigating?

    Does anybody feel me here?
    I am somewhat with you on this. I don't know about the types or functions of many of the people involved, but this is one thing that drives me crazy about my wife's family. It is like they think as long as their aren't external signs of a problem, then there isn't a problem. As long as everyone is acting nice and pretending to like each other, everything is great, even if everyone knows there is some big conflict just under the surface. My wife is ESFJ, no idea about the rest of her family and her mom is likely bipolar and definitely not easily typed.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I am somewhat with you on this. I don't know about the types or functions of many of the people involved, but this is one thing that drives me crazy about my wife's family. It is like they think as long as their aren't external signs of a problem, then there isn't a problem. As long as everyone is acting nice and pretending to like each other, everything is great, even if everyone knows there is some big conflict just under the surface. My wife is ESFJ, no idea about the rest of her family and her mom is likely bipolar and definitely not easily typed.
    Well, I'm pretty sure my ex is an ESFJ and when he was done fighting, he didn't want to hear about what he had done, or discuss it any longer, he wasn't open to change, or ideas about what should prevent it from happening again...he just wanted to act sweet and cute and nice and have me act normal again, too, because he was...and if I didn't, I was just being a "dweller" and an instigator, and possibly even a bitch. This was pretty clearly stated in no uncertain terms. Of course, his parents have been married for like 35 years and haven't divorced despite things like his mom gambling away the family savings, and his dad pushing his mom out of a moving vehicle. I guess he figured that,err... love conquers all, and it does it by STFU or GTFO.
    That's part of the reason why we aren't together anymore. I mean, I loved him, but I wasn't really keen on the idea of being pushed out of a moving vehicle someday and being expected to forgive, and only perhaps passively seek vengeance by maxing out his credit cards. Ahem.

    I have other examples, but I'd rather not post them at the moment. I think you get the idea.

    EDIT: I'd like to point out though that I totally dig the SFJ blind acceptance if they care about you/love you or whatever, though. I really loved that about my ex. I just couldn't deal with the learned tendency toward domestic violence.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    when he was done fighting, he didn't want to hear about what he had done, or discuss it any longer, he wasn't open to change, or ideas about what should prevent it from happening again...
    The way you described the interactions with the ESFJ is how I feel with my INFP mother. She's awesome in most ways but when there's a conflict, it is almost NEVER her fault. It is almost always completely the other person's fault so I end up usually doing what you just described and then she downplays how I feel about the situation. :steam: damn the enneagram 2 martyr complex. It sucks majorly to have all F doms in the house...gahhh. It seems that onany given day, at least one person in the house steps on someone's values. However, I still strongly believe that there are so MANY other dynamics that Fe/Fi really only play a small part in this situation. I can definitely see how both Fe and Fi can do that pretty easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    The way you described the interactions with the ESFJ is how I feel with my INFP mother. She's awesome in most ways but when there's a conflict, it is almost NEVER her fault. It is almost always completely the other person's fault so I end up usually doing what you just described and then she downplays how I feel about the situation. :steam: damn the enneagram 2 martyr complex. It sucks majorly to have all F doms in the house...gahhh. It seems that onany given day, at least one person in the house steps on someone's values. However, I still strongly believe that there are so MANY other dynamics that Fe/Fi really only play a small part in this situation. I can definitely see how both Fe and Fi can do that pretty easily.
    I think "if everything looks okay, it is" might be less-than-healthy Si/Fe, not just Fe specific...it's not that it was never his fault - that's not what I'm saying, it's not that he NEVER took responsibility or saw himself as the victim, so I think this is different than your INFP mother - it's just that he wanted things to snap back on track, as though that in and of itself fixes everything. His attitude wasn't that he was never wrong, but that clearly the way to set things right...is to act as though...nothing is wrong.

    I'm pretty sure he's ESFJ - it wasn't my first guess, but after learning more about MBTI I can scarcely see him as any other type, for lots of other reasons. On the good side, he was very nurturing and attentive in a certain way, etc.

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