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  1. #31
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I never said Fe was mechanical, and I never claimed the "genuine" behavior of Fi is always pleasant, appropriate, or even emotionally mature. I think you're very defensive about Fe for some reason, and I went out of my way to point out the flaws in Fi, which are certainly evident. I'm actually someone who values Fe, and scores fairly high on it for an Fi user.

    This is a typology forum. I explained to you my observations based on function theory.
    How would you explain sympathy and empathy without using MBTI or typology? You know those emotional responses existed before Jung came on the scene.

    Re me being defensive about Fe: If I am, you must be inconsolable in your empathy.

    I acknowledged that people of both types can use both functions. I complimented your earlier description. I'm not sure what you want, exactly.
    I'll tell you what I want: for you and everyone else to stop claiming they have more of something because of some functional endowment. I swear, claiming Fi is more empathetic must be like emotional Viagra or something.

    Fe users have told me about their capability of distance from a situation, almost sometimes as though they feel superior about it, and Fi users often talk about how overly involved they get into things sometimes. It's not like I'm just pulling this out of my ass.
    I beg to differ.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    How would you explain sympathy and empathy without using MBTI or typology? You know those emotional responses existed before Jung came on the scene.
    Empathy is something you identify with and have a personal emotional response to - relating to someone on a deep level,"feeling it" and sympathy is acknowledging others' feelings without relating to them, extending kindness and concern without identifying personally and sometimes providing the expected behavior in given social situations in order to make others comfortable.


    Re me being defensive about Fe: If I am, you must be inconsolable in your empathy.
    No, I am not inconsolable, but I appreciate your thoughtful concern. I've actually become more and more objective about Fi in recent months.



    I'll tell you what I want: for you and everyone else to stop claiming they have more of something because of some functional endowment. I swear, claiming Fi is more empathetic must be like emotional Viagra or something.
    People with Fi often react with an intense emotional response to given stimuli in a very personal way - sometimes to the point of jumping to conclusions or overreacting, or being so pained for someone else that they themselves are incapacitated and no longer helpful (that's when Te needs to kick in) so it shouldn't be very surprising that they relate more to empathy.



    I beg to differ.
    IME, Fe users want people with Fi to get a grip. If that isn't a capability of distance they're feeling proud of, I'm not sure what is. I've talked with IxFJs and ENTPs about this at length. Perhaps as an Fe dom, you have less ability to distance.

  3. #33
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Empathy is something you identify with and have a personal emotional response to - relating to someone on a deep level,"feeling it" and sympathy is acknowledging others' feelings without relating to them, extending kindness and concern without identifying personally and sometimes providing the expected behavior in given social situations in order to make others comfortable.
    Once again, I can find that on google. You're not saying anything.

    People with Fi often react with an intense emotional response to given stimuli in a very personal way - sometimes to the point of jumping to conclusions or overreacting, or being so pained for someone else that they themselves are incapacitated and no longer helpful (that's when Te needs to kick in) so it shouldn't be very surprising that they relate more to empathy.
    OK, so let me understand what you're saying. Take some common life very personal life experiences like birth, death, wedding, divorce, etc. Fi users somehow take that even more personally, because they feel it deeper for themselves and for everyone else? So on my wedding day, my Fi using friends will feel my joy and happiness MORE than even what I'm feeling? Can I persuade my Fi using friends to pay my student loans for me, cause they must be feeling it harder than I am and if they could use some of that Te to work hard to pay my loans and ease their and my suffering. Plus, I could reallocate that money to Hedonism 2011, aka The Year of my Thirtieth Birthday. You need some major dough to party for one solid year!

    IME, Fe users want people with Fi to get a grip. If that isn't a capability of distance they're feeling proud of, I'm not sure what is. I've talked with IxFJs and ENTPs about this at length. Perhaps as an Fe dom, you have less ability to distance.
    Hmm, I didn't realize being an emotional spaz and nutcase was related to Fi. Now that you mention it, I can see the truth in that.

    To give your claims a sheen of legitimacy, I have wondered if the Helping Professions are more FJ heavy because FJs can detach a bit more and be more useful in the sense that they're more able to move beyond personal feelings and act rather than being overwhelmed and incapacitated by their own emotions.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Once again, I can find that on google. You're not saying anything.
    That's fine, really. We're going to have to agree to disagree since you demand that I come up with...what...I don't know.



    OK, so let me understand what you're saying. Take some common life very personal life experiences like birth, death, wedding, divorce, etc. Fi users somehow take that even more personally, because they feel it deeper for themselves and for everyone else? So on my wedding day, my Fi using friends will feel my joy and happiness MORE than even what I'm feeling? Can I persuade my Fi using friends to pay my student loans for me, cause they must be feeling it harder than I am and if they could use some of that Te to work hard to pay my loans and ease their and my suffering. Plus, I could reallocate that money to Hedonism 2011, aka The Year of my Thirtieth Birthday. You need some major dough to party for one solid year!
    I get the feeling that you're intentionally missing my point. It seems pretty obvious to me the way that Fi users behave and react, and it in no way implies that they are happier or sadder for you than you are for yourself, but I think they are more likely to tap into their own experience with that emotional event. It's like what Fidelia was expressing confusion or frustration about when ENFPs kept replying to her with personal stories rather than more objective answers, or Rebe's story about freaking out over the animal cruelty video because she felt it in such a profound way.



    Hmm, I didn't realize being an emotional spaz and nutcase was related to Fi. Now that you mention it, I can see the truth in that.
    Yeah, that's totally unnecessary, but I'm sure you already know that.

    To give your claims a sheen of legitimacy, I have wondered if the Helping Professions are more FJ heavy because FJs can detach a bit more and be more useful in the sense that they're more able to move beyond personal feelings and act rather than being overwhelmed and incapacitated by their own emotions.
    Yep. Why are you taking that as being a bad thing?

  5. #35
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    I can really feel the irritation in these last few posts as if it were my own...

  6. #36
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Jung gave a 1935 lecture to 200 doctors where he clearly stated the feeling function-regardless of attitude-has nothing to do with emotions. Nothing.
    He defined emotions as physiological, something any type is capable of having, and emotions are not to be confused with the FEELING function as a mental process.

    Jung's old comment aside, I'm not sure what the big deal is here. We all have the ability to use any of the 8 functions unless someone has sustained brain damage.
    Anyone can feel empathy or sympathy for another person unless they're a psychopath. That's what separates psychopaths from healthy people - they cannot feel empathy. Any healthy human being, regardless of type, is capable of feeling empathy and sympathy.

    "To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another.
    The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them. "

    Empathy

    The FEELING function is not about "feelings" in the usual sense of the word, whatsoever.
    Fe and Fi are both judgement functions, used to make decisions of value or worth. The FEELING function seeks to answer the question, "What, or who, is something worth?" In other words, exactly how important is this to me? It's evaluative in nature. It's not about who feels the most emotion.

    That's why Jung once commented a FEELING type, could be the coldest person alive.
    Considering Jung's defintion of what the FEELING function is, it's perfectly understandable why he said that.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Jung gave a 1935 lecture to 200 doctors where he clearly stated the feeling function-regardless of attitude-has nothing to do with emotions. Nothing.
    He defined emotions as physiological, something any type is capable of having, and emotions are not to be confused with the FEELING function as a mental process.

    Jung's old comment aside, I'm not sure what the big deal is here. We all have the ability to use any of the 8 functions unless someone has sustained brain damage.
    Anyone can feel empathy or sympathy for another person unless they're a psychopath. That's what separates psychopaths from healthy people - they cannot feel empathy. Any healthy human being, regardless of type, is capable of feeling empathy and sympathy.

    "To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another.
    The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them. "

    Empathy

    The FEELING function is not about "feelings" in the usual sense of the word, whatsoever.
    Fe and Fi are both judgement functions, used to make decisions of value or worth. The FEELING function seeks to answer the question, "What, or who, is something worth?" In other words, exactly how important is this to me? It's evaluative in nature. It's not about who feels the most emotion.

    That's why Jung once commented a FEELING type, could be the coldest person alive.
    Considering Jung's defintion of what the FEELING function is, it's perfectly understandable why he said that.
    You're making an extremely valid point, but I have surely noticed a difference in the way of Fe vs. Fi preference "handling" things. It's actually led me to believe fairly recently that the assumption that Fi users belong together is wrongity-wrong, because when Fi is overly internalizing, Fe can step back from the situation enough not to get carried away with the Fi user (as a second Fi person might be prone to do; ugh I'm thinking of me and my ESFP mother...) but still be sympathetic enough to tolerate what Fi is doing. I think Fe can be really good at "handling" people, which is something I associate with sympathy, not empathy. And while two Fi users might get carried away and fight each other to the death (not literally, just figuratively) two Fe users might be so busy "handling" each other that certain things never get said.

    I think Fe and Fi aren't a bad combination, and I have nothing against Fe, I value it. I just want to repeat that because as off-topic as this post may be, I mean well in my intention to say I AM NOT CLAIMING ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER OR OMGZ Fi HAS SUPERIOR FEELINGZ. Quite the contrary.

    kthnxbye

  8. #38
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    That's fine, really. We're going to have to agree to disagree since you demand that I come up with...what...I don't know.
    Would you care to address my points about perceived empathy, empathetic concern, and empathetic accuracy? Or the ones about how you measure the amount of empathy you have to know you have more of it?

    I get the feeling that you're intentionally missing my point.
    No I am not. I think you're missing mine. I'm saying that empathy is more complex than anything you're using as proof and by you dogmatically sticking to your claim that Fi is more empathetic, you are not acknowledging the multitude of ways empathy is defined and expressed.

    This is from wiki, read it yourself:
    Since empathy involves understanding the emotional states of other people, the way it is characterized is derivative of the way emotions themselves are characterized. If, for example, emotions are taken to be centrally characterized by bodily feelings, then grasping the bodily feelings of another will be central to empathy. On the other hand, if emotions are more centrally characterized by a combination of beliefs and desires, then grasping these beliefs and desires will be more essential to empathy. The ability to imagine oneself as another person is a sophisticated imaginative process. However the basic capacity to recognize emotions is probably innate and may be achieved unconsciously. Yet it can be trained, and achieved with various degrees of intensity or accuracy.

    The human capacity to recognize the bodily feelings of another is related to one's imitative capacities, and seems to be grounded in the innate capacity to associate the bodily movements and facial expressions one sees in another with the proprioceptive feelings of producing those corresponding movements or expressions oneself. Humans also seem to make the same immediate connection between the tone of voice and other vocal expressions and inner feeling.
    How can you directly correlate all those variables to just Fi alone or claim that Fi is the single function responsible for empathy? You keep trying to turn this into a one-trick pony kind of deal, when it's more than that. Additionally, you're not acknowledging that it's teachable, learnable, contextual, dependent on perception, cultural, experiential, cognitive, instinctual, none of that. It just is what it is and whatever it is, you got lots of it.

    It seems pretty obvious to me the way that Fi users behave and react, and it in no way implies that they are happier or sadder for you than you are for yourself, but I think they are more likely to tap into their own experience with that emotional event. It's like what Fidelia was expressing confusion or frustration about when ENFPs kept replying to her with personal stories rather than more objective answers, or Rebe's story about freaking out over the animal cruelty video because she felt it in such a profound way.
    For example, in your little story above the inability of Rebe and the other ENFP to think outside of their own emotional reaction, hey that's the EXACT OPPOSITE empathy:
    Just as empathy was conceptually distinguished from sympathy, beginning with the early definitions of empathy in the 1800s, the term may be in the process of being distinguished further, this time from "perspective taking". Due both to the conceptual confusions between the emotional and cognitive aspects of empathy and to an emerging sense of the differences in the functional aspects of the two phenomena, more-recent discussions have distinguished between empathy (as the more intuitive emotional aspect) and perspective-taking (as the more cognitive aspect). Some authors, however, see perspective taking as one of the dimensions of empathy.
    They can't even step outside of their own experiences to interact with the other person...perspective taking is an element of empathy. You're describing people that aren't perspective-taking because they're stuck in their own! And read the bolded above: there are dimensions of empathy. Not just one thing or one definition...it's those components I'm harping about.

    What I'm trying to do by insisting that you're being 1D in your understanding of what empathy is try to engage you in a conversation about the other elements of empathy but you keep going back to typology to explain yourself. You can't even extricate your mind from MBTI enough to talk about this.

    Yeah, that's totally unnecessary, but I'm sure you already know that.
    What?! I'm Fe, I don't do anything like that!

    Yep. Why are you taking that as being a bad thing?
    I don't think it's bad for FJs, I think it's sad that some people are so mired in their own muck of feeling that they can't even reach out to help themselves or others. And then to conflate that with empathy is where the error occurs I think.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Would you care to address my points about perceived empathy, empathetic concern, and empathetic accuracy? Or the ones about how you measure the amount of empathy you have to know you have more of it?



    No I am not. I think you're missing mine. I'm saying that empathy is more complex than anything you're using as proof and by you dogmatically sticking to your claim that Fi is more empathetic, you are not acknowledging the multitude of ways empathy is defined and expressed.

    This is from wiki, read it yourself:


    How can you directly correlate all those variables to just Fi alone or claim that Fi is the single function responsible for empathy? You keep trying to turn this into a one-trick pony kind of deal, when it's more than that. Additionally, you're not acknowledging that it's teachable, learnable, contextual, dependent on perception, cultural, experiential, cognitive, instinctual, none of that. It just is what it is and whatever it is, you got lots of it.



    For example, in your little story above the inability of Rebe and the other ENFP to think outside of their own emotional reaction, hey that's the EXACT OPPOSITE empathy:
    I am going to sit down and address this when I'm sufficiently clear headed enough to go through it point by point. I promise I will.


    They can't even step outside of their own experiences to interact with the other person...perspective taking is an element of empathy. You're describing people that aren't perspective-taking because they're stuck in their own! And read the bolded above: there are dimensions of empathy. Not just one thing or one definition...it's those components I'm harping about.

    What I'm trying to do by insisting that you're being 1D in your understanding of what empathy is try to engage you in a conversation about the other elements of empathy but you keep going back to typology to explain yourself. You can't even extricate your mind from MBTI enough to talk about this.
    You're really making assumptions here.



    What?! I'm Fe, I don't do anything like that!
    Ha! People with Fe try to push people's buttons all the time, lulz. It's part of their repertoire of handling people...that can be used for good or ill. To nurture, or to fuck with, that is the question! There's no law that says Fe is always "nice" or "appropriate" any more than Fi is, or that Fe users never have thoughts like "why me/poor me" or that they always jump in to be helpful.



    I don't think it's bad for FJs, I think it's sad that some people are so mired in their own muck of feeling that they can't even reach out to help themselves or others. And then to conflate that with empathy is where the error occurs I think.
    I think you're making incorrect assumptions about Fi not being able to help themeselves or others. That's immature or unhealthy Fi, not the grand totality of Fi. In fact, Fi is often willing to take on the cause of another as their own, hence ENFPs being called "The Champion." Art and music and literature are also things that can help people, help isn't always a hands-on thing. For that matter, people with mature Fi can use their refinement of feeling to strongly propel them to help others, including in hands-on ways.

  10. #40
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    There's already a thread on this topic, is there not?

    Edit: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-sympathy.html

    There are more ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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